||||| Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.glorb.com!news.alt.net!pd7cy2so!pd7cy1no!shaw.ca!pd7tw1no.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail X-Trace-PostClient-IP: 70.70.44.129 From: Gerry Armstrong Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,de.soc.weltanschauung.scientology Subject: Reporter's transcript, Vol. 8, 1984-05-09, Scientology v. Armstrong, LASC No. C 420153 Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 11567 Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 16:12:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.67.253.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shaw.ca X-Trace: pd7tw1no 1107447176 24.67.253.205 (Thu, 03 Feb 2005 09:12:56 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2005 09:12:56 MST Organization: Shaw Residential Internet Xref: uni-berlin.de alt.religion.scientology:1829092 de.soc.weltanschauung.scientology:112275 Webbed at: http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/legal/a1/rt-1984-05-09.html SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT NO. 57 HON. PAUL G. BRECKENRIDGE, JR., JUDGE CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA, Plaintiff, vs. GERALD ARMSTRONG, Defendant. _______________________________ MARY SUE HUBBARD, Intervenor. _______________________________ NO. C 420153 REPORTERS' TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS Wednesday, May 9, 1984 APPEARANCES: (See Appearances Page) VOLUME 8 Pages 1178 - 1388 NANCY L. HARRIS, CSR 644 HERBERT CANNON, CSR 1923 Official Reporters [Page Break] APPEARANCES: For the Plaintiff: PETERSON & BRYNAN BY: JOHN G. PETERSON 8530 Wilshire Boulevard Suite 407 Beverly Hills, California 90211 (213) 659-9965 -and- ROBERT N. HARRIS The Oviatt Building 617 South Olive Street Suite 915 Los Angeles, California 90014 (213) 626-3271 For the Intervenor: LITT & STORMER BY: BARRETT S. LITT Paramount Plaza 3550 Wilshire Boulevard Suite 1200 Los Angeles, California 90010 (213) 386-4303 -and- BARRETT S. LITT BY: MICHAEL S. MAGNUSON The Oviatt Building 617 South Olive Street Suite 1000 Los Angeles, California 90014 (213) 623-7511 For the Defendant: CONTOS & BUNCH BY: MICHAEL J. FLYNN -and- JULIA DRAGOJEVIC 5855 Topanga Canyon Boulevard Suite 400 Woodland Hills, California 91367 (213) 716-9400 [Page Break] VOLUME 8 I N D E X Day Date Session Page Wednesday May 9, 1984 A.M. 1178 P.M. 1285 ------------------------------------------------------------ PLAINTIFF RESTS Page 1358 DEFENSE MOTION FOR NONSUIT Page 1358 PLAINTIFF'S ARGUMENT ON MOTION FOR NONSUIT Page 1358 E X H I B I T S PLAINTIFF'S IDENTIFIED RECEIVED 15 - (Previously identified) 1187 16 - (Previously identified) 1187 17 - (Previously identified) 1185 18 - (Previously identified) 1185 19 - (Previously identified) 1185 20 - (Previously identified) 1185 21 - (Previously identified) 1185 22 - (Previously identified) 1254 1356 DEFENSE: G - (Previously identified) 1187 I - (Previously identified) 1187 1178 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, MAY 9, 1984; 9:45 A.M. -o0o- THE COURT: All right. In the case on trial let the record reflect that counsel are present. You may proceed. MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor. Your Honor, before we proceed to read Mr. Garrison's deposition testimony let me see if we can deal with some other housekeeping matters. One, there are a few items of evidence that we would like to move in. We would like to move in exhibit 1. Before we do so, if the court feels it is necessary on the question of unavailability I have and am obtaining a certified copy of, which should be here by the noon break, the decision in the case in re Estate of L. Ron Hubbard, a missing person which is a decision of the Superior Court of the State of California for the County of Riverside which states in relevant part: "That the lack of information as to Mr. Hubbard's present address is a matter of choice by Mr. Hubbard. Mr. Hubbard's constitutional right of privacy gives him a right to keep his residence a secret from the public, and therefore he is not a missing person." 1179 And we offer that as further evidence that Mr. Hubbard is in seclusion. It is a judicial finding by the court of this state. We don't really think it is necessary. Mrs. Hubbard has testified to it, but we are prepared to add that on the unavailability issue. And we would ask that the court take judicial notice of that decision. If the court wishes, we'll provide certified copies, although I believe counsel for the defendant is fully aware of the decision. MR. FLYNN: I would like to be heard on that, Your Honor. THE COURT: Are you through? MR LITT: On that, I am through, Your Honor. And then on -- we would move in exhibit 1. We have other exhibits, but I assume Mr. Flynn wants to be heard on exhibit 1. THE COURT: Mr. Flynn. MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, with regard to the decision in the probate case, it is over a year old, first. Secondly, it is simply a decision that in the context of the California Missing Persons Statute where a person is missing for more than 90 days, the court found because of a declaration submitted by L. Ron Hubbard under the pain of penalty of perjury, which has not been done in this case, that Mr. Hubbard was not missing. That was the entire scope of the ruling. It had nothing to do with availability for purposes of service of process or service of a witness subpoena. 1180 Secondly, the Federal District Court in Tampa in a copy of a ruling that I have provided to the court specifically found that L. Ron Hubbard is concealing himself. The court stated at page 5 -- and this opinion was subsequently appealed on two occasions to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeal which is now the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeal. And the decision of the Federal Judge was confirmed. MR. LITT: That is simply an incorrect misstatement. There was an interlocutory appeal. The Eleventh Circuit Court did not hear the interlocutory appeal. There was no affirmation. MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard submitted approximately a foot of materials to the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeal. The court rejected the appeal. The Federal District Court in Florida ruled as follows: "The Court of Appeals opinion confirms such projects as 'red box' an organized effort on the part of persons within the church to hide the whereabouts of key personnel and key documents. Exhibit 3 to Lisa's deposition is 'Operation Bulldozer Leak', the stated purpose of which is to spread the rumor that L. Ron Hubbard has no control of the church and no legal liability for it. To the extent that the church is shown to be Hubbard's agents, these are efforts of concealment attributable to him." And the court rules further on that page, 1181 " ... these comprise corroborative and supportive evidence of the Hubbards' efforts and intent to conceal themselves. Accordingly, the file herein presents a showing sufficient to indicate concealment under Florida law." 1182 Now, this court is confronted with a situation where one federal court has ruled that L. Ron Hubbard is hiding from service of process. The court has received for identification this exhibit which initially when it was provided to the court was provided with an attached affidavit of a Mr. Brunell that was secured by an attorney named Lawrence Heller, and the exhibit 1 is dated February 3, 1982, and Mr. Brunell provided the special ink in which the letter is written and states in his affidavit, which we intend to introduce through Mr. Heller who we have subpoenaed in our part of the case, that the special ink was prepared and transmitted to Mr. Hubbard on February 2nd, and the letter is dated February 3rd. I submit that that supports an inference on the part of Mr. Hubbard's attorneys, of which Mr. Heller is one, of immediate access to Mr. Hubbard. We have subpoenaed, as I indicated, Mr. Heller to appear before this court. Lastly, we succeeded in subpoenaing last night Dr. Eugene Denk. Dr. Denk is Mr. Hubbard's physician, and we have testimony from other individuals that he has been his physician from at least 1979. We believe that Dr. Denk has seen Mr. Hubbard in California within the last five to six months, and on one occasion took an electrocardiogram machine out of his office and took it to Mr. Hubbard's location. We have received information as to where Mr. Hubbard's location may be. 1183 We have received information that there are three separate homes that have been set up as residences under an assumed name, and that Mr. Hubbard -- MR. LITT: Your Honor, can we not have these -- we have spent this whole case hearing about Mr. Flynn's incriminations. Let's get to facts. What are we supposed to do with information he's received? I have heard so many statements from Mr. Flynn of information that he has that has not turned out to be any such information, has not turned out to be evidence. I don't think it is right. THE COURT: I think if we are going to get involved in a dispute, it is going to have to be presented by way of evidence and not by way of assertion. I have already made some indication in my rulings on the in limine matter. I don't know that there's anything that's occurred since then that would cause me to change my mind, but let me look at this letter. It will be helpful if you could read this. MR. LITT: There is an attached typed -- THE COURT: Interpretation. Well, the letter purports to have been written February 3rd, 1983. Under 1250 of the Evidence Code this would be evidence of Mr. Hubbard's state of mind at that time, and as far as I am concerned, it is evidence of his state of mind on February 3rd that he'd like to have the belongings returned to the church or the legal representative of it. As to what he may have done in years before, it is 1184 not admissible under 1250 subsection (b). Under 1251, evidence of a previous existing mental state, there has to be unavailability and it has to go to his state of mind and not a corporeal act or that he acted in accordance with that state of mind, and further under 1252 the evidence is admissible under the article that the statement was made under circumstances such to indicate its lack of trustworthiness. 1185 THE COURT: I would not receive this even if he were unavailable to prove the truth of what is asserted there. I consider it to be hearsay, as I have indicated before. And I think that there is nothing to indicate anything that relates to its trustworthiness. And there is no opportunity to cross-examine. So I would not receive it for that purpose, but I'll receive it under 1250 of the Evidence Code which doesn't require unavailability insofar as the third paragraph is concerned in which he requests that it be returned. It is received for that limited purpose. MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor. The next item -- I just want to go through at this point and clean up moving whatever into evidence. And I am just going through as they are marked. I think the next item is actually a defendant's exhibit which we are all in agreement on which is the Omar Garrison PUBS DK agreement which was marked by the defendant as exhibit G. He would move that in. THE COURT: Why don't we stick with plaintiff's exhibits first? Are they all in? MR. LITT: No, Your Honor. The next on the plaintiff's exhibits, that we would move in are exhibits 17 through 21 which Mr. Peterson testified to yesterday. THE COURT: Is there any objection to those letters and bills? MR. FLYNN: No objection to the letters, Your Honor. 1186 I object to the bills for the reasons stated yesterday. THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection. They'll be received with the same comments the court made yesterday relative to the objections. MR. LITT: That takes care of all of the plaintiff's exhibits that we are moving into evidence at this time. Exhibits 15 and 16, we do not want to move into evidence at this time, Your Honor, because they are lists of the sealed documents. And unless they are going to be received as such under seal, we are just reluctant to move them into evidence. The court knows our feelings about doing anything that makes these matters a public record. THE COURT: Are those the ones that indicate which is private and confidential? If it wasn't developed, how am I going to receive it? MR. LITT: The court, at least, for the present, until the case begins and we see what has and hasn't come out in the way of documents, the court can agree to receive that at this time under seal. THE COURT: This is just an inventory with comments personal and private; isn't it? MR. LITT: That is all it is, Your Honor. THE COURT: Or a statement that is to be filed with the court anyway as a list of exhibits? MR. LITT: Yes. THE COURT: I see no reason to put that under seal. MR. HARRIS: So long as it is not considered any sort 1187 of waiver in respect to the actual documents which underlie the index, Your Honor; no problem. We'll move it in. THE COURT: I have no feeling that it would constitute any kind of waiver. Your position is very clear. I understand your position. MR. HARRIS: We'll move them into evidence. THE COURT: 15 and 16 are received. MR. LITT: Exhibit G, Your Honor. MR. FLYNN: I have no objection, Your Honor, as long as the two attachments are also marked which are exhibit I. THE COURT: They may be attached by stipulation. I don't think there is any evidence. MR. HARRIS: There was one which there was testimony about which was -- MR. LITT: I have the original agreement here, Your Honor, if I can find it. And we can -- Mr. Flynn, what are you referring to as the attachment? MR. FLYNN: The letter of L. Ron Hubbard with the initials OVG in the lower right-hand corner dated March 16, 1977. MR. LITT: Oh, yes. It is a part of it. That is fine. MR. HARRIS: We have no objection. THE COURT: We have the G and I. MR. FLYNN: I have no objection to it being merged into one exhibit. THE COURT: All right. Then I'll receive G and I with 1188 the understanding that I was included within exhibit G. Are those the only exhibits you want to offer of the defense? MR. LITT: At this time, yes, Your Honor. Your Honor, may I make one other inquiry before we begin, which is that the process of absorbing the defendant's marked exhibits has still been a difficult process for us because each day at the end of the day the defendant marked more exhibits and including the last day after we had had the last access to the documents. I wonder if the court would permit Mr. Long, who is here, who has been acting -- he is a church staff member from the legal bureau of the church and has been acting as a factual research assistant. I wonder if the court would permit that he sit in the jury box with the defendant's exhibits just so he can review them and make some notes on them for our purposes? THE COURT: Which defense exhibits? MR. LITT: The sealed exhibits. Our problem is that some of them, we are not even sure still what the notations even refer to or what the contents of some of them are. THE COURT: You mean while we are conduting the trial? MR. LITT: I know there is some concern about the security of the documents. So I am just trying to think of any means that would allow him, since they are here now, to be able to review them while the trial is proceeding in some form. If the jury box isn't a good suggestion, I am 1189 open to whatever makes the most sense. THE COURT: Maybe Nick can sit with him. Do you want to sit with him and watch what he is doing? THE COURT ATTENDANT: I suppose so. THE COURT: Maybe it would be better over here where there are no other people around. Why don't you tell him which ones you want and the clerk will -- MR. LITT: Mr. Long will bring the list to the bailiff. THE COURT: Are we going to proceed with the reading of Mr. Garrison's depo? MR. LITT: Yes, we are. Your Honor. I have the original of the transcript with me. The set that the court has received is the set that has the blue markings and the red markings. Because that is all I had. THE COURT: Mr. Litt, you can read Mr. Litt's questions and Mr. Harris can read Ms. Dragojevic's questions and I can rule on the objections as we deal with them. 1190 THE COURT: What about the -- there are a couple of exhibits here. Are we going to use those exhibits in this proceeding? MR. LITT: Well, one of the exhibits is the agreement. THE COURT: Okay. That is G. MR. LITT: We will refer to it by G. The exhibit that is marked exhibit 1 in this deposition transcript would be exhibit G in this case. There is a second exhibit which is a statement of the agreement, settlement agreement between Mr. Garrison and New Era Publications which has not yet been marked as an exhibit and that when we come to it we will mark as plaintiff's next in order. THE COURT: Very well. " OMAR GARRISON, having been called as a witness on behalf of the Intervenor, was duly sworn, examined, and testified as follows:" Beginning with page 5. MR. LITT: Your Honor, I think we can skip the medical questions. We can go to page 6, line 18. THE COURT: All right. MR. FLYNN: I take it then I am going to follow after. Wherever Mr. Litt stops, I am going to join in? THE COURT: Where Mrs. Dragojevic asks the question. MR. FLYNN: And Mr. Harris is going to be kind enough to ask me the questions? MR. HARRIS: I didn't know I was volunteering for that, 1191 but okay. THE COURT: Well, if you start having problems, let us know. MR. HARRIS: Okay. MR. LITT: (Reading:) "Q Let me begin by asking: Mr.Garrison, what is your occupation? "A I'm a professional author. "Q And where do you reside? "A I reside at 1099 West Cedar Knolls South, Cedar City, Utah. "Q Can you describe just very briefly the books that you have published, specifically books that relate to the subject of Scientology. You don't have to go through everything. "A No. I have 14 books in print; it would be very rather difficult. "With respect to Scientology, the first book I did was one called The Hidden Story of Scientology. Do you want to know basically what it's about? "Q Just the title is all right. "A The next one which dealt with Scientology, at least peripherally, was one called The Secret World of Interpol; and there was a third one, the last one, which is entitled Playing Dirty and has a subtitle The Secret War Against Beliefs. 1192 "Q Some time in the year 1980, did you enter into a contract to write a biography on the subject of L. Ron Hubbard? "A I did. "Q Showing you Exhibit" -- what is now Exhibit G -- "can you examine that document and tell me if that is a copy of the contract which you entered into to write that biography? "A As each page with the exception of one page, namely page 8, bears my initials, I assume that it's the same document. "Q With whom did you enter into that agreement? "A I'm not quite sure with whom I was entering the agreement at all. The name on the contract was an entity known as, I believe, Publications DK. "Q 'DK' referring to Denmark? "A Denmark. "Q And this biography, was there an arrangement with respect to it that would involve cooperation by the Church of Scientology and by L. Ron and Mary Sue Hubbard with respect to the biography? "A Yes, indeed, very much so. I was to be provided with all -- I believe the contract itself spells it out -- all necessary materials to do a full and complete biography. 1193 "Q Was it an authorized biography? "A I'm not competent legally to say what an authorized biography is. If you mean was it my understanding that L. Ron Hubbard approved it, yes, indeed. I have a memo to that effect signed -- initialed by Mr. Hubbard. "Q Now, in drafting the biography, were you to be provided materials by the Church of Scientology of California to assist you and provide you background information in writing the biography? "A No. At no time was it specified where the material would come from except from Mr. Gerry Armstrong who was appointed as my research assistant. Now this occurred when I first met Mr. Armstrong in England in East Grinstead, Sussex. He was introduced to me as the archivist who had charge of biographical materials and would have more, I believe; and it was my understanding that a general memo had been circulated to other parts of the Church of Scientology saying that this biography was being done, and if they had any pertinent material, they were to send it to Mr. Armstrong. "So as to the source of the material, I honestly cannot say where it came from or who had it. It was first introduced to me by Mr. Armstrong. "Q When did you first meet Mr. Armstrong? 1194 "A I can't give you the exact date off the top of my head, but it is fairly well documented because I was in East Grinstead at the time, and it was a few months prior to signing of the contract. "Q Was it essentially in the context of discussions about how the biography would proceed; is that right? "A No. At that time -- 1195 "Q Negotiations -- "A At that time, remember, I had not signed -- at that time I had not really agreed until knowing that they would conform to certain conditions I had. At that point I had not either signed under the contract or agreed to do it. I was very hesitant at that point. "Q And the contract itself was signed, I believe, October 30, 1980; is that right? "A Yes, approximately. "Q Is that your recollection? "A Yes; in Los Angeles. "Q At that time was Mr. Armstrong working as an archivist or the archivist? "A Yes. Well, it is my understanding he was. "Q That was the information you received? "A That was the information I had, yes. "Q Both from Mr. Armstrong and other people? "A Other people, responsible people in the church. "Q Do you know where Mr. Armstrong had his office, his archives office? "A Those that I saw --- and, incidentally, I don't have access to -- but I saw them. They were in the Cedars of Lebanon building known as the Cedars Complex. 1196 "Q That's at the Church of Scientology facilities in Hollywood? "A Well, it's known as the Cedars Complex. It's their principal building here, I think. "Q Now, once you signed the contract did Mr. Armstrong begin to provide you with materials to be used for it? "A Yes. He provided me copies. And it involved rather extensive copying of original documents. And the documents, as I understood it, were arriving as we went along from other places as well in addition to those he already had. So I have no personal knowledge of what the setup is with regard to what he had and what he received later. But he began to provide me with material from that point, from the point of signing up the contract. "Q Now, in the past you indicated that you had written other subjects that generally were in the area of Scientology. Had you been provided materials in preparing those? "A Copious materials, enormous amounts of material. "Q And had it been your general practice to keep those materials confidential between you and the people who had provided them to you essentially? "A Yes. 1197 "Q And was it your understanding that the same practice would apply to the materials provided for this -- "A Oh, yes. "Q Let me follow out, if I can for a moment, how this contract would work. Was there a mechanism by which after you drafted a manuscript that it would be provided to certain people for their review? "A I think you'll find the document itself is the best answer to that. I think it really mentions names of people. I haven't looked at the document recently because it's null and void so far as I am concerned. And as you know now, it is legally as well; so I haven't had occasion to refresh my memory as to who those persons were, but I believe they are named in the document. "Q Well, specifically, and correct me if I am wrong -- "A David Gayman was one. And he, of course, is now outside the pale; and I believe Mr. Hubbard was another. But I don't recall the third person. There were three, were there not? In any event, it is in the document. "Q And after this was subjected to review could proposed changes be suggested to you? "A Well, again, my memory is that they could. But as you have the document before you, 1198 I think you could refer to it and it could tell you." MR. LITT: I wasn't going to read the next. THE COURT: I thnk Mr. Flynn wants it all. MR. LITT: I'll read my questions because there was no objection by me to them. "Q And was it your understanding that in the event for whatever reason that an agree- ment could not be reached as to the content of the document, there was a method by which the manuscript would not be published and you would be reimbursed? Was that also part of the contract? "A Again, the contract is there before you. The contract in my opinion was obtained fraudulently and so for that reason I've not again reviewed it and refreshed my memory on it." MR. LITT: I move to strike that answer as non- responsive, Your Honor. THE COURT: All right. It will be stricken. MR. LITT: (Reading): "Q All I'm asking you here is not the financial arrangements of the contract or whatever, but was it your understanding when you entered into the contract that there was a mechanism by which -- "A Yes. "Q If an agreement at the present 1199 time could not be reached, there could be an arrangement by which you could be reimbursed -- "A Yes. "Q -- and the manuscript not actually be published? "A Yes. "Q Thank you. Give me a description, and here I don't want a detailed description, but a general description of the types of materials that Mr. Armstrong as the archivist made available to you in the course of your work on the biography. "A To a biographer, anything whatsoever pertaining to the person about whom you are writing is grist for the mill. I want to sort of preface it with that. "The material that Mr. Armstrong provided me ran the whole gamut from ordinary -- let's say, the baby book, the beginning of Mr. Hubbard's career, his letters; there were legal documents; there were -- everything, all the material that would go into a classic biography. "Q Were they extensive? "A Extremely so, yes. "Q Can you give me any kind of estimate of the volume of them? "A I'm still trying to determine that because I had such enormous reserves of documents 1200 left from the last book that related to Mr. Hubbard as well that for the last three years I've been reviewing not only the material that Mr. Armstrong gave me, but all that went before. So it's intermingled. And I can give you a rough estimate, for what it's worth, as to worth -- you want the number of pages or -- " 1201 "Q However you find it easiest. I realize we can't be precise but -- "A Well, there were in terms of binders -- because much of this material was collected into individual binders. There were, I believe, some 300-and-some-odd which -- the Scientologists have a way of computing documents, as dating from the time of those they took in Washington, as stacking them up on the side. If this is true, I might have a five-foot stack of documents. "Q Were you provided materials by anyone other than Mr. Armstrong? "A Oh, yes. Different people. I couldn't tell you everybody, Sullivan; people even wrote me from Denmark. "Q But the primary person was Mr. Armstrong? "A Yes. He was my research assistant so it was his job. "Q Do you know what his actual title was? Was it 'Archivist' to your knowledge? "A This was my information; and research assistant. "Q And was it your understanding that that was a church title of some kind? "A I have no idea; their titles are very mysterious. "Q Would you at times request from Mr. Armstrong certain types of materials? 1202 "A Yes. Not frequently because he was always ahead of me. In other words, the documents that he had provided me I was still reviewing and going through and making notes from and cross- referencing. Always there was a backlog of material I hadn't got to, and this was the case right up to the end. As you know, there were several documents I hadn't even seen or gone through because I didn't get to them. "But on occasion when a question would arise, I would make a note of it and I thought he might have the answer to, and then he would say, yes, it may be in this or that document, and he'd go into the files and look for it. "Q Were many of the materials from what you could determine personal records of Mr. or Mrs. Hubbard? "A Very personal records. "Q And would it be fair to say that upon completion of the project and in the event there was a request for the return of them, that it would have been both your practice and your understanding that they would be returned with the possible exception of materials that were directly used by you? "A I think so. I have a reluctance to have other people's personal matters in my files and -- but I would have retained through publication 1203 and beyond, at least beyond the statutory limits, any material related to what I had published simply out of a -- simply as a protection against future suits. "Q So, in other words, the materials that were given to you were materials provided to you for your use as opposed for your personal ownership; would that be a fair statement? "A That's an assumption. Curiously when we got to look at the contract -- it never occurred to me because this has never been a problem before. But when my attorney -- when you first brought up, I believe, the question of return of all the documents and then they issued this -- this subpoena duces tecum to me over there, saying bring everything you ever owned about scientology, we got to thinking about it, and my attorney looked at the contract, and he said nowhere in there does it require me to return anything. "Q I understand that the contract itself is silent on that point. "A Yes. But if you mean is it my practice, would I have done it, yes. "Q That had been the practice on your other -- "A Not always. They didn't -- as time -- it was the practice with the first book, 1204 and after that I think that the knowledge finally grew on them that I was a person who could be trusted, and they never requested the return of any other material. I have very sensitive materials relating to the other books, some of it very sensitive. "Q Did you ever provide access to any of these materials to anyone who was not part of the church? "A I did not, that is, not knowingly, not with my consent. "Q What was your understanding, if you had, ones as to who owned the materials, copies of which were provided to you? "A The question never arose. "Q Let we ask it this way: I take it you were able to determine that there was a variety of materials, some of which could be categorized as personal papers of Mr. Hubbard and Mrs. Hubbard, some of which/were from the church files; is that right? "A There was very little comparatively. If you take the entire body of the material, I'd say that almost nothing was church -- this is the material that I had and was provided me where, if you wanted to characterize them, you would say they are the private papers of L. Ron Hubbard. "Q To you knowledge, had these papers 1205 or were these papers made available to anyone from outside the church other than you? "A Would you repeat that, I didn't quite follow. "Q To your knowledge, had these papers ever been made available to anyone from outside of the church other than yourself? "A Not in the sense of my having seen them pass from one hand to another. It's just a general loose understanding, an assumption that they would have been used, certain ones, in another, in another context. But as for my personal knowledge of it, no, I can't say that I ever knew. "Q Explain to me how Mr. Armstrong would work with you as your research assistant on the biography. Explain the working relationship between the two of you. "A Generally speaking, Mr. Armstrong was an extremely efficient researcher in that he -- we had a vast body of material that was just miscellaneous that he had apparently brought in or sent in or acquired or wherever it came from. And he was able to take this and, it seemed to me, in a very short time and intelligently sorted out and put it into binders in such a way that it would save me hours and hours and hours of work trying to relate one thing to another. 1206 "So that if in one binder there was within a certain time period there were certain developments, and over here in another time period there were developments way down the road that related to these, I didn't have to wait until I got down there, but there would be a cross reference or the documents itself in there. So in that sense I was extremely grateful, and I still am extremely grateful for the work he did. "So to answer it in a general way, he was a very able researcher, and he knew -- he had the ability, which is important, to keep everything in his head as well. So that if I asked -- there were thousands of details, minute details; and if I said, 'Well, somewhere I recall -- I didn't make a note of it at the time, but I recall that there was a reference to an incident that occurred in 1932 in Puerto Rico,' he would say, 'Yes, it's in this or that binder.' And I'd know right where -- so from that point of view it was extraordinary really. 1207 "Q So essentially it sounds like from what you are saying that he played two interrelated roles. One is he gathered materials and provided to you what he thought would be relevant to the biography and, secondly, he was a resource on whom you could draw if you had a question about those materials? "A Right. "Q Now, I have a list. And I just want to go over it real briefly. This is a list of, at least, some of the types of documents that Mr. Armstrong has previously indicated were among the materials provided to you. "There were letters between Mr. Hubbard and his various wives? "A Yes. "Q Documents from Mr. Hubbard's Naval career? "A Yes. "Q Correspondence with various agents and publishers between Mr. Hubbard and others? "A Yes. "Q Correspondence or other files relating to friends of Mr. Hubbard's or acquaintances? 1208 "A Relating -- I don't -- "Q In other words, letters or whatever between personal acquaintances -- "A Yes. "Q -- and Mr. Hubbard? "A Yes, 'writer friends,' I think was the title. "Q Files of various written materials by Mr. Hubbard, original written materials, manuscripts? "A Well, they weren't originals in the sense -- with one or two exceptions, they were copies of originals, yes. "Q Awards that Mr. Hubbard had received in the course of his life? "A Possibly, yes, I believe there were one or two. "Q Correspondence between Mr. Hubbard and other family members aside from his wives? "A Yes. "Q Childhood information such as Boy Scouts, a variety of sort of miscellaneous -- 'memorabilia' would be the best word? "A Yes, memorabilia concerning his Boy Scout period, yes. "Q Diaries and journals? "A Yes. 1209 "Q Can you think of any other general categories that I haven't included? "A Yes -- well, no. Mostly -- you see, you've given a more-or-less broad -- some of those categories are broadly descriptive. I think you can subsume mose of the materials under those you've given. "Q Now, at some point you became aware that Mr. Armstrong had left the church and was no longer the church archivist; is that correct? "A Yes. "Q Would that be in -- sometime around Christmas of 1981 that you -- "A I believe so. "Q -- learned this? "A In that general time period, yes. It was after Christmas, just following Christmas, I think. "Q Mr. Armstrong called you and advised you that he had left the church? "A Yes. "Q Now, for the period, say, the two or three months immediately prior to that -- I am referring now to that being the time Mr. Armstrong left the church -- "A Yes. "Q -- had you received any large 1210 body of materials for your biography from Mr. Armstrong? "A My recollection is that I did. I'm not quite certain as to how much, but it seems to me, if I recall correctly, at that period -- well, again, this came to me all the way along the line and more or less in bunches. I'd receive a number of binders at the same time. But generally speaking, I believe that there was some -- I would say a little more toward the end than there had been in the immediate preceding months. "Q I know it's a while ago so I recognize it's hard. But when you say 'a little more,' would it be like -- "A Well, I honestly don't remember. I really don't. These things -- I remember I thought we were at the end of everything, staring the first two months afterward. You must realize that I had no idea that all this material existed and I don't think anyone else did. I don't think Mr. Armstrong did. I think it just proliferated. "Q Let me ask you the question this way: In the months of November of December, were you given several thousand additional pages? "A No. I don't believe so. I don't 1211 recall that many. "Q So to the best of your recollection it may be a few hundred, something like that? "A I would characterize it by number because I honestly don't remember. And, you see, this had been an ongoing project over three years and it's -- I honestly don't remember any given time how much I received at one time. "Q Now, as I understand it Mr. Armstrong agreed to continue to help you out for a while in your biography? "A Yes. He did at my request. "Q And was the assistance that he gave you in the form of continuing to be a resource to help to answer questions or -- "A It was chiefly -- "Q Or help locate things -- "A That was it. It was to help locate things and materials. That was it, to help me locate things. Because as I said, he had a very astonishing recall and memory of where things were and it saved me hours and hours because I could say 'Well, where is this?' And also he was able to readjust some of this material so it would bring it in alignment and I wouldn't overlook something 1212 which perhaps was down the way and I wouldn't even know about it so I couldn't ask him about it because I didn't have knowledge of it. So the re-arrangement as well. "Q And after he had left the church did he do any writing or provide any new biographical material other than what he had already given you? "A Not to my knowledge. There were -- there were things that were not sorted out, as you know and so, what was there, what he had knowledge of, it is unknown to me. "Q So essentially, as I understand it, the form of his assistance would be that he was available for you at any time to call him and ask him questions about the materials? "A Well, he continued to work very closely with me on it. "Q When Mr. Armstrong left the church he did not have a job; is that right? "A I don't know that. "Q Well, let me ask it this way: You helped him to get a job -- "A Yes. "Q -- at some point -- "A Yes. "Q Do you remember when that was, approximately? 1213 "A Well, you could tell when his employment began with Feldsott & Lee, the law firm for whom he has been employed in the last year and a half or whatever it is. "Q To the best of your recollection, that was around the spring of 1982? "A Gee, I don't recall precisely, but somewhere in that time period, yes. "Q Now, as I understand it, after Mr. Armstrong began working at the law firm -- whose name you mentioned, but nonetheless evades me at the moment -- his relationship to working on the biography diminished? "A Oh, considerably, yes, almost entirely. I mean -- well, he was very good about this because he was never -- he was never reimbursed for any of his services after he left the church. But he was very good about it because I was constantly ringing him up and right up to the time that I left off writing the book and asked him where certain things were. "Q So let me see if I understand it correctly. Basically, after he went to work for the law firm, you might call him on occasion -- "A Yes. "Q -- to ask him one question -- 1214 "A That's right. "Q -- or another? "A Because we didn't see each other that often. He was here and I was in Utah. "Q Now, as some point did Mr. Armstrong come to you and say that he would like to obtain from you some of the materials from the -- 'biography project' I'll call it that -- that you had? "A Yes. Perhaps we ought to, at least I would like to preface that by saying that during the period we are discussing -- and this has been, I think, laid out in an affidavit by Mr. Armstrong. So I won't repeat all of it -- but in a general way he was -- considered his life in danger." MR. LITT: Your Honor, I move to strike that as nonresponsive. I moved it in the transcript. THE COURT: Well, let's see. All right. I'll strike the answer as nonresponsive. "Q My only question here is at some point did Mr. Armstrong come to you and ask you if he could get some materials from you that you had from the biography project? "A In a general way, yes. I'm not -- in other words, I don't at the moment recall a specific instance, but obviously, he did, yes. 1215 "Q Did that occur on more than one occasion, or on one occasion as best you recall? Was there a particular time? Without necessarily being able to identify the date, was there a particular request? "A That was what I was trying to explain, that it wasn't a series of specific requests. There was a general understanding that grew of what was happening to him which laid the foundation for his having access to the documents, which, in fact, I had received from him anyway. It wasn't betraying any confidentiality because I got the documents from him. He knew everything that was in them. "Q I understand. But he came to you at some point and asked you if he could make copies of some documents; is that right -- "A Yes. "Q -- as opposed to his having access? "A Yes. "Q And he told you that he needed these documents for his legal case -- "A For his -- yes, for his defense. 1216 "Q Referring to that request when he came to you and said that there were materials he would like to copy for his case, do you recall the nature of the materials that he requested? "A No, I don't recall. "Q Were they materials that generally were to relate to the subject of L. Ron Hubbard's connection to or control over the Church of Scientology? "A That was my understanding, but as to whether that was the fact or not, I couldn't answer that, no. "Q It was your understanding from Mr. Armstrong -- "A That was the purpose. You are inquiring as to the purpose. That was represented to me as I understood it, yes. Yes. "Q And then Mr. Armstrong, in fact got some documents and then reviewed them with you, is that right, as to what he was taking? "A No, he didn't review them with me at all. He said -- there are several occasions. We're speaking of this as -- again, you are trying to put it into a single incident when in fact what you are referring to was an occasion in which Mr. Armstrong took some documents for his use in his case and left me a list of the documents he took so that I would know what he 1217 had. But I did not review those and I do not know what they were. "Q Do you recall how much material he took on that occasion, approximately? "A It's simply an estimate on my part, but I would guess about 12 binders. "Q Would that fill -- just to try to get a physical estimate of it. If you can't answer it after I ask it, just tell me. Would that be, say, one carton full? "A Oh, no. You must understand that all the binders were not uniform in size. Some were extremely thin; and some of those that he would have been interested in for the preparation of a legal case were in fact documents that would be single documents in a binder and therefore quite thin. "Q So to your understanding it would be less than a carton? "A Oh, yes, I think so. On this -- remember we're speaking of a specific occasion, now. There were other occasions. "Q Now, on the other occasions -- and again I recognize you can't remember all of the details. On the other occasions, was it also your understanding that these documents were being taken for use in his case? "A Yes. 1218 "Q And if you have any idea or as best you can, can you give me an estimate of the total bulk of documents that he would have taken from you. Would they have all together filled one carton, say? "A I have no idea. quite honestly, because I don't know. It's the same thing I've said repeatedly about -- "Q Let me explain one thing. I am not asking for what was actually taken because I realize you weren't there when Mr. Armstrong took them. But as far as you understood of what was being taken, I'm trying to get some ideas of the amount of materials that we're dealing with. "Q Frankly, I don't know. Frankly, I really don't know. This was, again, over a period of time, and it's very difficult to -- to -- I want to be accurate because there's no point in my just estimating it, and I really don't know how much material Mr. Armstrong concluded he needed or wanted for his -- for his case. "Q The occasion that you described a moment ago where you said he left you a list of what he took. Was that around the time of the Clearwater City Commission hearings? "A No, it was afterwards. I believe. I wouldn't want to be held to it, but I am -- my 1219 impression is it was considerably some time afterward, but I'm not sure. "Q In terms of the types of materials which you would give permission to take, were you agreeing to taking what you considered to be private or confidential papers of Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard? "A They were characterized to me as mostly legal documents that were necessary because I was constantly like a broken record telling Mr. Armstrong that under no circumstances was he to take, to disseminate or let out of my ken biographical information. My -- I was constantly reminding him we'd have to limit the material to what he needed for legal purposes; and what that was I had no way of knowing because I wasn't his attorney and I didn't -- I wasn't in charge of his case. I didn't know what kind of case they were working out. I never consulted with them. But there was always the caution that I didn't want any biographical materials to be disseminated. "Q So if I understand the situation correctly, and please tell me if I'm wrong, Mr. Armstrong came to you and said he needed materials for his case, and you made a distinction between legal documents and documents that related to your work on the biography or that would 1220 be more personal documents that would only be usable for the biography project as such, and then left the judgment as to what fell into those categories up to Mr. Armstrong? "A Yes, that is correct. 1221 "Q I am going to attempt -- and I'm not sure I'm going to succeed -- in seeing if I can go through some different types of materials with you and see if these are materials that you know Mr. Armstrong has taken from you or were within the category of the types of materials that he had taken from you. Letters of Mrs. Hubbard to Mr. Hubbard. Do you know whether Mr. Armstrong took any such materials from you? "A Of my certain knowledge, no. No. "Q He did not take any such? "A No, I did not say that. I said of my certain personal knowledge, I don't know. "Q When you had the discussion with Mr. Armstrong about his taking materials from you, was it your understanding that he would be taking such letters? "A Well, it was well understood, as I believe I told you in our initial conversation, that I had no intention of using Mrs. Hubbard's letters at all and in fact did not. "Q I understand that. From the conversation between you and Mr. Armstrong about the materials he said that he would be getting from what you had, was it your understanding that that would include letters 1222 of Mrs. Hubbard? "A No. Letters of Mrs. Hubbard were never discussed by us at all. I don't recall in any context discussing Mrs. Hubbard's letters with Mr. Armstrong other than the reference that they were there in the material. "Q How about tax documents? "A There was one folder -- again, I'd like to be precise, but I'm not certain on that point. I think -- there certainly was no discussion, and I may have provided him one called 'Tax Matters.' I'm not sure about that. There was one, I recall, one folder that had that label. "Q Let me go back for a moment before I continue on this tack. "Do you recall approximately when the request came to you from Mr. Armstrong for documents? I mean was it right after he left the church or somewhat later? "A No, no. It was somewhat later. It was specifically -- without pinpointing it in time, I can give it to you relatively. It was, say, when he felt the necessity he said of retaining counsel, and he had in fact, did retain counsel, and at that point he needed, he said he needed documents to support his case. "Q Now, was that counsel, do you 1223 know, Michael Flynn? "A I -- to the best of my belief, it was, but I'm not sure because Mr. Armstrong didn't confide in me chiefly because at that point -- I mean with respect to his counsel --chiefly because I think he felt I was opposed to anything that Mr. Flynn might do with any information he would get. I felt he was in close contact with other writers, some of whom I felt some doubt about; and I didn't want them to obtain any material that I had for my biography because, obviously, they'd use it. And so I didn't -- I rather frowned on the idea at that time of Mr. Armstrong having a relation with Mr. Flynn at all; and he felt this reluctance on my part, and he didn't discuss any of the -- any of the details of his association with Mr. Flynn. "Q Did you communicate to Mr. Armstrong your hesitancy to have materials that you felt were important to the biography that you were writing provided to Mr. Flynn because there was a danger that they in turn could be passed on to other writers? "A Repeatedly. "Q Now, I'm going to ask you just about what's really a completely unsystematic list of materials just to try to get a sense of 1224 certain things and see if can jog your memory or not. This relates to what to your under- standing was provided to Mr. Armstrong by you. "For example, do you have any recollection of whether there were any newspaper clippings from the late 1950s that Mr. Armstrong took from you? "A Gee, I don't recall any at all. I'm not sure. Could you be more specific? What kind of newspaper clippings? "Q All I know about them is that there were some newspaper clippings from the years 1957 to 1961 that had comments by Mr. Hubbard, apparently. "A I recall only one, which had to do with horticulture -- and the reason I recall it is that I just found it, and I've just returned it this morning -- and I found it in my files. It was from an English newspaper, and it had to do with Mr. Hubbard's work with plants in England. Apart from that the only other one I recall, I think, was some account of the ship APOLLO, it's latter history. "Q Did you have any understanding that such newspaper clippings were to be provided to Mr. Armstrong as part of the materials that you were giving him? "A Well, of course, I had no idea 1225 what was going to be provided Mr. Armstrong. It just -- you know, it just came over the transom, and I grabbed it. "Q No, no, no. You are back in a different time period than I am. "A I see. Maybe I don't understand you. "Q I'm referring now to -- not the period that Mr. Armstrong was gathering up materials to give you but the period when he came to you and said that he needed certain materials. And what I'm trying to get an understanding of in general in these questions is the types of materials that you understood that he would be taking from what you had, and one example would be -- for instance, would it have been your understanding that part of what he was getting from you would have been some newspaper clippings? "A No, absolutely not. I wasn't aware of any newspaper clippings at all. "Q How about earlier incomplete biographical sketches of Mr. Hubbard? Same question. "A I'm not quite sure I understand the identity of the document you are talking about. Is this -- the church has provided all sorts of biographical sketches of Mr. Hubbard. 1226 "Q Apparently this is an early, incomplete biographical sketch. "A Well, there are so many I really couldn't say because I have seen various ones dating back to -- "Q How about letters between Mr. Hubbard and A. E. Van Vogt? Would it be your understanding that Mr. Armstrong would have been getting such letters from you? "A Specifically, I don't recall, but I rather think, yes. "Q How about letters between Mr. Hubbard and L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. -- then L. Ron Hubbard, Jr., now Ronald De Wolfe -- from the late '50s? "A No, not to my recollection or knowledge. 1227 "Q How about letters between Mr. Hubbard and his son? "A I don't recall specifically what, but it's quite possible. "Q That you would have given such materials to Mr. Armstrong? "A If -- if they appeared relevant to his announced purpose, yes. "Q How about premarital agreements between Mr. Hubbard and Mary Sue Hubbard? "A Well, I saw those but I don't know whether Mr. Armstrong -- whether -- he didn't ask specifically for them. "Q Would it have been your understanding that that was the type of material you told him he could take? "A Well, again, if it appeared that that -- at the moment I don't see any relation, but anyway, it didn't come up between us. Q Personal letters between L. Ron and Mary Sue Hubbard? "A Mr. Armstrong didn't specifically ask for any of those, didn't ask me for any of those. "Q If he had asked you for that, would you have given it to him? "A Well, that's an assumption which, if it were not assumed it would depend on what 1228 the circumstances were. You see, I don't -- quite frankly, I haven't read all those letters. And I don't know what's in them as I wasn't going to use them and Mrs. Hubbard is quite prolix in everything she wrote, going on and on about minor details about the children and so on. I didn't see any good reason if I am not going to use them to read through all that. There are page after page of these letters. "Q How about letters between Mr. Hubbard and Volney Mathison? "A I don't believe I've ever seen one. "Q You don't believe you have ever seen any letters between Mr. Hubbard and Mr. Volney Mathison? "A Let me put it this way: I don't recall having seen any letters between them. It doesn't mean they they didn't exist or I didn't have them right under my hands, but I don't recall them. "Q How about correspondence between Mr. Hubbard and the British Home Office, mid-'60s? "A I don't recall specifically any such letter. "Q How about Mr. Hubbard's Naval 1229 records? "A Yes. "Q It was your understanding that Mr. Armstrong was taking those? "A Yes, yes -- well, not all of them. They're quite extensive. Just selected ones, I believe. "Q According to my notes -- these notes, for your reference, are notes taken by going through the documents that are under seal. These are several hundred pages in the court of such Naval records. "A Well, all that I saw or had, I returned. So whatever was in that. But I remember there were a number of binders and also one binder called -- maybe two binders called 'Board of Investigation' which actually related to his Naval experience. "Q Well, my question here is -- you did, I know you had such binders. My question here goes to your understanding of the nature of the materials Mr. Armstrong was taking from you. "Was it your understanding that part of what he needed for his legal case were Mr. Hubbard's Naval records? "A I'm not quite sure. But I believe I would have -- I don't -- let me 1230 answer your question first of all specifically. I don't recall any such discussion or understanding, but had it arisen, I would have weighed it in the limited context of my knowledge of what his case was -- and I still don't know what it is -- and if it had appeared to me that it would have been helpful to him, I would have been certainly agreeable to his using it. "Q Well, let me ask you a question: You described your understanding of the type of materials that Mr. Armstrong wanted which basically had to do with the relationship between Mr. Hubbard and the church. "A Yes, especially with respect to control and so on. "Q You were not prepared to give Mr. Armstrong, if I understand correctly, personal material that had to do with Mr. Hubbard's personal life which might, say, contradict other statements that had been made by the church? These were not the type of materials that you were providing to Mr. Armstrong; is that right? "A If I felt if they were not? That is a hypothetical question you are asking me because specifically, it didn't arise. But you are asking now for a -- 1231 "Q Well, actually, I am not asking a hypothetical question. I am asking for your understanding. In other words, in terms of what you thought you were giving and what your understanding of what was being requested of you was, it was not that you were being requested for materials from Mr. Hubbard's personal life that might contradict other statements about his personal life that had been made in another -- "A Actually not, but I would have provided those as well as -- "Q No, no, no. That's not my question. My question is not what you would have done. My question is did you understand that you had agreed or did you agree to actually provide such materials? "A I'm still somewhat in the dark as to what the question is. "Q Okay. I'll try again. "Did you tell Mr. Armstrong that it was all right for him to take whatever materials he wanted related to facts from Mr. Hubbard's personal life that contradicted statements that the church had made about Mr. Hubbard's life? "A In a general way, yes; but specifically, no. In other words, as I said 1232 before, whatever, not knowing what his case was or what they were working up, I said anything that was necessary for his case, he could have; but I constantly added the proviso that it be strictly limited to the legal case and to protecting me and my material as a biographer. And that was the only limitation that I set. That's the only one." THE COURT: We'll take a 15-minute break. (Recess.) MR. HARRIS: Your Honor, with your permission, may I designate a switch hitter, Mr. Peterson? THE COURT: Let the record show that counsel is present. Yes; you may continue on page 39, line 12. "Q Can you estimate the total bulk of material that you had if you just gathered it altogether? "A Well, whatever I had, I returned, I think. "Q I know. "A There are some exceptions, perhaps, that I'm still looking for. "Q I understand. But can you estimate for me how much material that was? "A No better than you can. You've 1233 seen it. "Q I didn't see it, actually. "A Well, maybe that's it. There were -- in terms of binders there were 300-some-odd binders and then all the folders and the tapes and loose documents and -- it's still coconuts are still falling, as you see. "Q How about letters between Mr. Hubbard and his first wife or his second wife? Did you understand that Mr. Armstrong needed those materials for his case? "A Did you say his first wife or his second wife, or from both? "Q Both. "A I had no understanding with respect to that at all. "Q How about letters between Mr. Hubbard and his mother? "A No. I was not aware of -- "Q How about Mr. Hubbard's diary from the early 1940s, his journal? "A Yes. 1234 "Q How about a copy of the book Excalibur? "A Yes -- well, I think, again, with certain limitations, that it was not to be disseminated and so on. "Q Now about a copy of Mr. Hubbard's -- not really a copy but materials related to the Alaska expedition? "A I don't recall those one way or the other. "Q How about materials related to the death of Quentin Hubbard? "A Those materials were provided to me not by Mr. Armstrong but by Vaughn Young. "Q My question is, did you understand that those were -- "A I didn't have any discussion relative to those with Mr. Armstrong. I could have because we talked about everything. "Q How about materials related to the divorce proceedings between L. Ron Hubbard and Sarah Northrup Hubbard? "A Yes. "Q You felt that that was connected to the question of Mr. Hubbard's control over the church? "A Yes, partly, yes. They were spelled out in there, I believe, some of the statements made that would definitely go to that. 1235 "Q How about various materials that are dispatches of Mrs. Hubbard? "A I've got loads of them, but not in this context; they're from previous books. I don't offhand recall any dispatches from Mrs. Hubbard other than her letters, correspondence, memos to help me, and so on. "Q You had several binders, I believe, didn't you, that were specifically on correspondence between Mr. and Mrs. Hubbard? By which I mean Mary Sue Hubbard. "A I have a great number of them; as I said, hundreds of pages. "Q Did you understand that Mr. Armstrong was taking those from you? "A I don't -- I'm not sure. At the moment I don't recall our discussing it or my saying, 'Take these.' I think it was -- you see, you are assuming that I looked at every document he took. "Q No, I'm just asking, I am not making any -- "A That would assume that I examined every document that he took. No, in this instance I did not specifically say, 'Take these documents.' "Q You like Mr. Armstrong, don't you? "A Very much. 1236 "Q You consider him a close personal friend? "A Yes. "Q And on many occasions you've gone out of your way to help him out as best you could? "A Yes, I have. "Q How about poems of Mr. Hubbard? Did you understand that Mr. Armstrong would be taking materials of that nature? "A Did you say 'poems'? "Q Yes. "A No, I can't -- although much of Mr. Hubbard's prose could fall in that category. No, I don't specifically." Going down to line 27: "Q All right. We're continuing the deposition," -- actually just going to the next page -- "Let me spend a few more minutes on the materials that you had. First, I may have asked you and so tell me -- I sometimes lose "The materials that were given to you by Mr. Armstrong -- I am referring now to when he was archivist -- were for your use only; is that correct? "A Well, it was never spelled out what it was for, but my assumption was that it was for the purpose of the biography. 1237 "Q Well, you would not have felt free, would you, to disseminate/to third persons? "A Well, I would not have done under any circumstances. "Q And would it be fair to say that based on your experience --- you indicated that you had written three previous books that related to the subject of Scientology -- that the materials that were provided to you an arrangement that you had were based upon a good working and amicable working relationship between you and the church? "A Yes, it was. "Q Going to the time when after Mr. Armstrong had left, you've described the discussions or some of the discussions, at least, that you had with him concerning his obtaining certain information. Was it your understanding that the sole purpose for which he was getting these materials from you was for use in his case as you have described? "A Yes. "Q It was not for use in working on the biography that you were working on? "A You mean a biography separate from the one I was working on? "Q No, no. When the materials that he obtained from you, copies of which he obtained 1238 from you, he didn't get those as part of assisting you on the biography; right? This was a separate -- "A This is partly true. At times, remember, he was still assisting me after he left the church. And at times he did have documents that were related to the biography that he was helping me with. So -- "Q But I'm referring now to when he requested of you to make copies -- "A No, no. it had no relation to that, no. "Q As he would take materials from you, would you discuss with him what he was taking, or did he have free access to the material? "A He had free access to the material because he was still assisting me. "Q Where were the materials? "A Well, at different times they were different places. At first after he left the church -- as you know I maintained a -- I had a flat in Costa Mesa and the materials were all there. "After the -- after the difficulties began between him and the church, in other words, when they started harassing him, and he felt that he had to counsel, I'm not quite sure whether -- yeah, I'm sure that I still had 1239 them in the flat in Costa Mesa, and he was still assisting me, so he had access, but with my permission to the materials. "Q Most of the materials were there at your flat in Costa Mesa? "A They were up to the time that the difficulty began where they started having -- approaching him in the parking lots and that sort of thing. And then I felt that security was involved and that they might -- as a matter of fact, Jane Kember, the former head -- the former Guardian had a key to my flat. So there was a matter of security at that point that entered into it." Your Honor, I am going to move to strike the part of that response that says "approaching him in parking lots and that sort of thing" as being based on hearsay which is not an objection that has to be made at the deposition. THE COURT: Well, I assume he'd say he was told that by Mr. Armstrong. It will be limited to that purpose, keep the context of what we are talking about. MR. LITT: (Reading): "Q So, were the documents moved from Costa Mesa? "A Yes, they were moved from Costa Mesa. "Q Where were they moved to? "A Part of them were moved to Utah, and part of them I moved too, to the home of a 1240 friend of mine, Bill Crago. "Q Do you remember approximately when this move occurred? "A I can only -- in relation to -- I can't give you an exact date, but it was -- it would be approximately at the time that the litigation between the church and Mr. Armstrong began. 1241 "Q Which was some months at least after Mr. Armstrong -- "A Yes, yes. "Q -- had left the church? "A Yes. "Q So for maybe six months or so -- A I would guess approximately May of 1982. "Q So for the six months from December '81 until May of '82 they were in a flat in Costa Mesa? "A Not the entire time. Part of the time Mr. Armstrong -- I paid rent on an office for him to answer the telephone for a corporation, Ralston-Pilot. And during that time the documents were moved from time to time because for security reasons. "I was about to explain to you that Jane Kember, who was formerly head of the Guardian's office had a key to my flat and I didn't want them, the Church of Scientology or its representatives, to come in and simply take all my documents." MR. LITT: I'll move to strike that as nonresponsive, Your Honor. THE COURT: Oh, I'll leave it in. "Q Let me explain -- "A That's why they were moved. 1242 "Q That's fine. That's not my question. "A What is your question? "Q My question is, simply, am I correct in saying that the materials were in your Costa Mesa flat from approximately December '81 or earlier -- but I am referring now to the period of time that Mr. Armstrong had left -- from approximately December '81 to about May of '82? "A No. Part of them during that -- I'm not quite sure. But part of them during that time could have been moved to -- "Q As of Mr. Crago or to Utah? "A No. Or to the Ralston office. "Q Okay. And approximately May of '82, whenever -- "A I closed the flat and -- "Q And you at that time moved all of the materials either to Mr. Crago's home or to your home in Utah? "A Right. "Q What proportion of the materials, as best you can say, would have been with Mr. Crago? "A Well, the material that was in Mr. Crago were actually copies. The original binders that I had, I took all of them with me. 1243 Now, the material that was with Mr. Crago was never the original binders that I had received from Mr. Armstrong. They were copies which were made as an insurance against the representatives of the Church of Scientology stealing the original binders." MR. LITT: Motion to strike that, Your Honor, that last sentence. THE COURT: I'll leave in "they were copies which were made as an insurance." The rest of it will go out. "Q I'm not asking you why. I'm just trying to get what was where. I'm not asking you for your reasons. "A All right. "Q Okay. Your reasons, I'm not concerned with. I'm just trying to get at the physical location. "A I understand why you are not, but okay. "Q So you had a duplicate set of materials? "A Not all of them. "Q But a substantial -- "A Yes. "Q What Mr. Crago had was a substantial duplication -- "A Yes. Certain documents that we felt were -- 1244 "Q Important? "A Important -- to my biography, not to anyone else. That I'd be left high and dry if I didn't have these to support the biography. "Q So Mr. Crago's materials were materials that you felt were particularly important for the biography? "A Right. "Q Now, were there materials of Mr. Armstrong's that were also stored at Mr. Crago's? "A I have no idea what Mr. Armstrong stored at Mr. Crago's other than I know what was there when I went to retrieve it. There was material which I had not stored and I assume this was some that Mr. Armstrong had stored there. "Q When did you retrieve the materials that you had left with Mr. Crago? "A I can date it only, again, by reference that it was a short time before Mr. Crago's deposition was taken. By 'short time,' I mean a matter of the previous two months, in that time period. I don't know for certain. But if you know the date of his deposition, you know it was within the previous two months that I had taken the material. 1245 "Q So roughly around the end of 1982, roughly? A No. You took his deposition later than that. You took it much later. It hasn't been too later. "Q So you think it was sometime early in '83, this year? "A I could be wrong, but I believe; that's my impression. "Q So far as you were aware were the materials that were left with Mr. Crago materials that Mr. Armstrong needed for his suit? "A As I said, the materials left with Mr. Crago were partly those that I had stored there and partly those which Mr. Armstrong had taken later. So -- "Q I'm referring to the ones you had stored there. "A Some of them were related to the case, yes, but not all. But I think most of them. "Q You think most of them were? "A I believe so. "Q What proportion of the materials that you had did you understand were relevant to Mr. Armstrong's case? "A Not knowing Mr. Armstrong's case, 1246 I'm unable to say. I don't know his case. I don't know it to this day. So I can't tell you what's related to it. I don't know what Mr. Armstrong's claiming legally. I've never seen any of the legal documents. So I can't tell you -- "Q Well, he came to you, you testified, and said, 'I need some things for my case'? "A Yes. "Q And you, being sympathetic with him, basically agreed to give him what he needed. At the same time you've indicated that you did not agree to give him everything -- "A No. "Q -- is that correct? And you did not agree to give him materials that were important, in your judgment to the biography, especially that which could be used by other writers; correct? "A Well, that's not true in exactly the way you say it. I was willing for him to have any material that he needed with the proviso that it was not to be disseminated beyond the legal arena. That was my only restriction. I was protecting my own material. "Q Now, my question you is, in terms of -- I'm not asking for your knowledge of the 1247 law as such. I'm asking for your state of mind. In terms of your understanding of the materials that you had, what percentage did you understand were potentially relevant to Mr. Armstrong's case? "A I had no idea. Again, I come back to how could I know? I knew -- you see, my concern, as I am trying to get it across, is whatever was necessary in the preparation of a legal case to me was one thing. But to disseminated it beyond the legal arena to other writers or even to the media or to anyone else whatsoever, I was very much opposed to and reiterated this particular restriction over and over. It's the only one I ever imposed. And it was a general one where the judgment had to be left to someone who knew the case. I didn't know it. "Q But you've told us that you believed that, in general, the types of materials that he needed were those that related to Mr. Hubbard's connection with the church -- "A Yeah. But -- "Q -- or control over the church? "A Yes, true. "Q Give your description of the type of material you understood that he was 1248 interested in, what percentage of that material, in your opinion, would have fit into that category? "A That's a difficult question. You are asking for conclusions that presuppose a knowledge of their case and of what they were seeking to prove. "Q I'm not asking about the case. No, no, no. I'm asking about -- "A Well, how could I form such a judgment? "Q Given the standard that you've explained to me -- forget the case for a moment. Given the standard that you've explained of materials related to Mr. Hubbard's connection to or control over, if you will, the church -- "A Yeah. "Q -- what percentage of the materials that you had approximately would be in that category? "A Offhand, I couldn't estimate. But it would be a considerable -- it would be a major portion of the materials. If -- if I were a clever attorney, it would be a considerable portion. "Q Now, sometime in approximately May of 1982 you had a meeting with some -- I'll 1249 use a general phrase -- with some Scientologists in connection with re-negotiating your biography contract, which re-negotiation was unsuccessful; is that right? "A I would say so. "Q Now, after that point, as I understand it, you continued to work on a biography of Mr. Hubbard? "A I did. "Q At that point it was your view, if I understand it correctly, that you were no longer working pursuant to the contract which we've referred to earlier; is that correct? "A That's correct. "Q And essentially, from approximately May of '82 on, you were writing a biography, not to submit under the terms of that contract, but to submit to a publisher for potential sale? "A That's correct. "Q So that for approximately the last year, your work on the biography has not been to ultimately publish a biography to be published by -- "A Not an -- let's say not an approved biography. "Q Not the one that was contemplated in the contract? 1250 "A Not the one envisioned. "Q And not to be published by the publisher that you had signed that agreement with? "A No." MR. LITT: Can we have that marked as plaintiff's next in order, Your Honor? THE COURT: 22. All right. This is what was exhibit 2 at the deposition, counsel? MR. LITT: Yes, Your Honor. MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, this brings up a very important matter. And that is that this is not the entire settlement agreement. And Mr. Litt has refused to give us the entire settlement agreement. He is appending merely a portion of it. MR. LITT: It is not a portion of it. THE COURT: I don't know why we have to worry about it at this moment. The only reason for it is that this is to preserve and understand what was done at the deposition. Now, at some point in time if you want to make a motion with reference to something else, we'll consider it in due course. But at this point we are trying to recreate the deposition that was conducted here. And this is, I assume, what was presented at that time. 1251 MR. FLYNN: I'd just like to have the entire settlement agreement made available to me so I could review it. THE COURT: Well, let's do this first. It is going to take some time. MR. LITT: (Reading:) "Q Mr. Armstrong, I am handing you Exhibit 2 -- "A You are handing it to me. "Q Yes, I'm sorry, Mr. Garrison. The names fly around a bit. "Can you take a look at that and tell me if you recognize it? "A That's my initials that appear at the bottom of each page. I assume that's the one that I have read and signed. "Q Well, let's look at that more closely. "A Any particular paragraph? "Q Well, what I would like for starters is for you to look at it and tell me if this is an agreement entered into between you on behalf of yourself and on behalf of Ralston-Pilot, on the one hand, and New Era Publications, on the other hand, which is a public statement of a settlement agreement that has been reached with respect to the October 1980 contract and with respect 1252 to any potential biography to be written by you of L. Ron Hubbard? "A I fail to see where it's related to the case of Gerry Armstrong and the Church of Scientology." I can read the rest of that page in, but it is a colloquy about why this is relevant. THE COURT: Do you want it, Mr. Flynn? MR. FLYN: No, it is not necessary, Your Honor. MR. LITT: Beginning at the top of page 55: "Q So we still need you to identify that document. "A I do identify it as one that I've signed on the proper date. "Q You entered into this agreement having been represented by counsel; is that correct? "A Correct. "Q And you entered into the agreement with New Era Publications as a subsequent name for the publisher that you had originally entered into the October 30, 1980 agreement with; is that correct? "A No, that is not correct. I entered into it as an agreement with New Era Publications. I don't know whether it's a successor or not a successor. I never had any indication that it was. 1253 "Q Well, if you read line 11 of the agreement, you will see that it says this is a -- "A Yeah, I see what it says, but I don't know whether that's true or not. "Q But you signed the document "A I signed it as it's written. But as to whether I knew Era is a legiti- mate successor to Publishers DK, I'm not competent -- "Q I'm not asking you to express an opinion on that. "A No. "Q That was your understanding -- "A Yes. That's right. "Q -- on the basis of which you negotiated the agreement? "A Yes. Not an acknowledgement that it was in fact a successor. "Q And as part of this agreement, you have agreed that you will not publish a biography of L. Ron Hubbard, and you are not working on any biography of L. Ron Hubbard either under the October 1980 contract or on any other basis? "A Correct. Correct. "Q And you are in fact not currently working on any such biography? 1254 "A I am not. "Q And also as part of the agreement, you delivered to the Church of Scientology International all of the documents and materials which had been provided to you by Mr. Armstrong in connection with your preparation of that biography? "A With the exception as spelled out in the original agreement there, that there may be some still out- standing that I have to locate. "Q With respect to those that are outstanding -- "A Let's define it more care- fully: That there are none that I currently know specifically of, and if they should turn up, they will be promptly returned, and they will not be passed on to a third party." Your Honor, why don't I give this to Mr. Peterson and he can give it to the Court so you will know what is being referred to. THE COURT: A11 right. Exhibit 22. MR. LITT: (Reading:) "Q And you currently make no claim to possess any of these -- "A None whatsoever. 1255 "Q -- materials? "A None whatsoever. "Q Was Mr. Armstrong ever your agent with respect to possession of these materials? "A I don't know what you -- if you would define 'agent,' I could tell you. Is it in a legal sense or -- "Q Well, let's take it in a lay sense. When I spoke with you on this subject once before, I believe you told me that as far as you were concerned Mr. Armstrong was not then and has not been your agent. "A Not in the sense that I under- stand the word 'agent,' no. In other words, he was not acting legally on my behalf. "Q With respect to the materials that had been provided you in connection with the preparation of the biography, was it your understanding that any of these materials were ever personal property of Mr. Armstrong? "A The question never arose, and I never gave it any consideration one way or another. "Q Was Mr. Armstrong acting in providing you with the materials in his 1256 capacity as the archivist for the Church -- "A No. "Q -- in providing you the materials? "A No. He was providing me -- he was acting directly as the representa- tive of L. Ron Hubbard it was my under- standing. "Q You told me that he was the archivist. "A That's right, but he had -- you must realize the archives belonged to L. Ron Hubbard not to the Church. The Church never had possession of the archives, in my opinion, if you are asking for my opinion. "Q Well, I'm not asking for your opinion. "A Well, it seemed to me that you were. "Q No, no, no. He had the title of archivist; right? "A Yes, for L. Ron Hubbard. "Q No. Mr. Garrison, when I went through with you before, you told me you didn't know what he was the archivist of; do you remember that this morning? "A Well, no. But it's my understanding -- 1257 I said I didn't know -- "Q No. My question -- let's just take the title 'Archivist' -- "A Yes. "Q -- okay? In his having access to these materials -- "A Yes. "Q -- he provided them to you in his capacity as archivist; is that right? "A Yes. "Q Was there anything that indi- cated that he personally had the independent right of possession of these apart from his position as archivist? "A No." MR. LITT: There is an objection. THE COURT: Well, I will overrule the objection. "A Yes. Well, again, it is a conclusion. You said is there anything indicating that, and my answer is -- you see, we're going round and round, but we could resolve it very simply by my telling you that from the very outset, including my first meeting Mr. Armstrong in East Grinstead in Mr. Gaiman's office, he was represented to me as a person who was putting together all the private papers and materials of L. Ron Hubbard for possibly 1258 not only the biography but a museum. "Q A church museum? "A I don't know whether a church museum or not. That's your interpretation. "Q A Scientology Museum? "A No; an L. Ron Hubbard Museum, because it had nothing to do with the church per se. The church would enter into it -- "Q Who is Mr. Gaiman? "A David Gaiman? He was the assistant and later Acting Guardian Worldwide. "Q A church -- "A The one -- "Q A church position? "A Yes, it's a church position, but representing Mr. Hubbard as well, I assume. In other words, the only attorney that I ever dealt with in this case in the contract or legally -- "Q No, no. You don't even have a question pending. I'm going to move to strike that. "A All right." THE COURT: It will be stricken. 1259 MR. LITT: Your Honor, Mr. Garrison keeps talking. I'm going to go down to line 13. MR. FLYNN: Fine, Your Honor. MR. LITT: (Reading): "Q Let me go back to one other question about the documents. Now, you indicated that you were not certain of the amount of documents -- "A No. "Q -- which were taken by Mr. Armstrong. You also indicated that you thought you had approximately five feet of documents total. "A I would guess, yes. "Q Let me give you one or two figures. Was it your understanding that Mr. Armstrong, in putting together the materials that he was putting together, that he was getting from you, would have more than a thousand pages of documents that he obtained from you? "A There was no understanding with regard to amounts. "Q Two thousand pages? "A No. There was no -- there was never any discussion of the number of pages at all. "Q If I told you that the materials that Mr. Armstrong had in his possession that were turned over to the court -- 1260 "A The ones under seal, you mean? "Q -- the ones under seal were of the the same bulk that you've described, that is, approximately five feet or more -- "A Uh-huh. "Q -- would that indicate to you that that was a greater amount of material than you had understood he was taking from you? "A Not necessarily. Because, again, I haven't the foggiest notion of what is under seal in the court. "Q I understand that. I'm just asking -- "A I'm not sure they're the same documents. But if you are just talking about putting a yardstick on it and measuring, well, possibly. I don't know the amount. I don't know the identity. "Q I'm not asking the amount or the identity. "A What is the question, then? "Q All right. We'll try it again. "Let us presume for purposes of this question, okay, that there are five feet or more of documents that Mr. Armstrong took from you; okay? You don't have to comment on whether that's accurate. Just assume that -- "A I have not said that. "Q I understand that. 1261 "A I have not said that. "Q I quite understand. Assuming that is true, would that be a greater amount than you had understood that he wanted or needed from you? "A I would say. "Q If I were to tell you that and, again, assuming that there are eight to ten thousand pages of documents obtained from you from your materials from you, for purposes of this question -- "A Well -- "Q -- by Mr. Armstrong, assuming that that's accurate -- "A I wonder how you know that; that's the only thing. "Q Mr. Armstrong said it in his deposition. "A Okay. "Q Would that be a greater amount of material that you had understood he had taken from you? "A Yes." THE COURT: The next page is Ms. Dragojevic. MR. FLYNN: That's me, Your Honor. I am not sure I can adopt her voice, but I'll do the best I can. "BY MS. DRAGOJEVIC: "Q Mr. Garrison, when did you first 1262 have contact with the Church of Scientology? "A My first contact with the Church of Scientology was when -- and this is a guess -- probably in 1971. At any event, it was when -- shortly after the publication of a book of mine called "Spy Government." "Q Were you approached by the Church of Scientology, or did you approach them? "A I was approached by the Church of Scientology as a result of this particular book; because in the book, which is concerned with the illegal activities of government agencies with respect to individuals and organizations, I mentioned in two or three, maybe four pages the incident of the FDA raid on the Church of Scientology in Washington, DC and this was what brought representatives of the Church of Scientology to me to tell me that they had a bigger story than the raid and they would like to submit it for my examination. "Q Was/it their intention that you write another book or something -- "A Yes. I found eventually it was their intention; that they had material which had been ignored by the establishment media and they wanted me to see all the materials and see if -- examine them and see if what they said about the illegal incursions into the church were 1263 in fact true. "Q Did some type of publication result from this first meeting? "A Yes, it did. It was a book called The Hidden Story of Scientology. "Q And that is the first book that you mentioned when you listed those books that you had written about Scientology? "A Yes, there was. "Q With respect to these three books that you wrote regarding Scientology did you also enter into contracts for their publication? "A Enter into contracts with whom? "Q With the Church of Scientology. "A Yes. But not for the publication, but for the writing. I was to provide my own publisher. Simply that they would provide me with materials for the writing of the books. "There was no agreement -- I might add there was no agreement in this contract to write the books for any monetary remuneration from the church as such; simply just that they were going to support it with presumably large membership of readers. "Q Do you remember who you contracted with for The Hidden Story of Scientology, what entity of the Scientology Organization? "A I believe -- and don't tell me 1264 just because it's off the top of my head -- and it was an organization called -- and this might have been the second one, not the first -- Religious Research, Religious Research something. Perhaps you know the name." MR. LITT: Then there was a comment by Mr. Long: "No." "THE WITNESS: A Liberian corporation, I believe. "BY MS. DRAGOJEVIC: "Q How about the book entitled The Secret World of Interpol? "A Similarly. "Q You contracted with the Religious Research Organization? "A I think so. "Q And Playing Dirty? "A Playing Dirty, quite frankly, I don't recall. But it's quite likely it was the same. In other words, they were all church entities, at least that was my understanding. "Q Did you ever deal with Mr. Hubbard with respect to any of these three publications? "A Not contractually. After the publication of -- after the publication of Hidden Story which was first published in England by Arlington Books and later in this country by Lyle Stuart or Citadel Press, 1265 Mr. Hubbard was very pleased with the book itself. And he sat down and wrote me a letter and included a check for a thousand dollars which he said was a bonus because of the work I had done. "Q But if I understand you correctly, you were never paid pursuant to any contract for any of these three books; is that correct? "A Well yes. I was paid, but in a -- as an advance on a purchase of books. So they -- in other words, the church organization was not out of pocket; on the contrary, they bought books and made a profit through their own book shops. For the money advanced, they received a certain number of books which they in turn sold. Last time I heard, they were selling for some enormous prices in their book shops. "Q Have you ever been a member of the Church of Scientology? "A I never have. "Q Were you provided with documentation for the writings of any of these three books that we have just discussed? "A I was provided with extensive documentation for all three. If you want to put it in the same terms of how high were they, in my flat in London I would say there were twice 1266 as many for Hidden Story as there were for the biography because there I actually stacked them up against the wall. And they were higher than my head. "Q What was the nature of the documentation that was provided for the writing of Hidden Story? "A It included everything, starting with 1950 with the publication of Dianetics. And almost immediately after Dianetics was published, there were letters from the AMA that went out within a matter of weeks after publication; letters that went out to all the doctors who were members of AMA attacking Hubbard and starting a campaign against Dianetics. And then it extended right up until the time of the publication including all the legal documents, the court hearings, the FDA." THE COURT: You may skip that next comment. "Q Were you also provided documents for the writing of Secret World? "A As I said, in each instance I was provided extensive and copious documents. "Q What type of documents were you provided for the writing of The Secret World of Interpol? "A Legal documents, correspondence, transcripts of court hearings in Germany and 1267 elsewhere around the world and so on. "Q What kind of correspondence? "A There were correspondence, some of it, the correspondence, was between client and attorney with the attorneys in Germany and so on. "Q What type of documentation were you provided for Playing Dirty? "A At this time this was a case -- I was provided all the material that was obtained by discovery relating to the FBI raid; I was provided entire file of transcripts of all the court hearings before Judge Ritchie. And amusing, however, they were a little more interesting. I'll say that everything heard before Judge Ritchie had a certain carnival air that at least provided some amusement not ordinarily found in court transcripts. At one point Judge Ritchie got off the bench, laid down full length in his judicial robes on the floor, which I think is an unusual circumstance. 1268 "Q Other than the communication from Mr. Hubbard in which he indicated that he was pleased with the publication and gave you a check for a thousand dollars, have you had any other communi- cation with Mr. Hubbard over the years? "A I've had communications, many of them represented to be from Mr. Hubbard and signed by Mr. Hubbard, but which I believe came from SO-1. "Q Why do you believe they came --" THE COURT: Are you making a motion to strike? MR. LITT: I will let that stand. MR. FLYNN: (Reading:) "Q Why do you believe they came -- "A You can say at least that I have received communications ostensibly from Mr. Hubbard. "Q Why do you believe they are from SO-1?" MR. LITT: Your Honor, at this point there is a whole colloquy here about his belief on SO-1. I mean, I let some of the beginnings come in, but I don't think it is relevant, and it is all conclusions, basically, through page 69. MR. FLYNN: I think it goes to his state of mind. MR. LITT: What does his state of mind have to do with anything? 1269 MR. FLYNN: He believes he was dealing with Mr. Hubbard as he says on lines 5 to 7 on page 69. THE COURT: Well, I am not really sure of the signi- ficance of this in the total picture. But it deals with -- the question was asked whether he had other communications with Mr. Hubbard, and he said he had many of them repre- sented to be from Mr. Hubbard and signed by Mr. Hubbard, and which I believe came from SO-1. And then, I guess, he goes on to explain, try to explain how he came to that conclusion. I think I will let it in. I am not sure that it has any great evidentiary value, but it may shed some light upon his later answers or testimony he may give in this case. MR. FLYNN: So the next question is: "Q Why do you believe they were from SO-1? "A The information that was developed during the course of the writing of the biography indicated to me that Mr. Hubbard was not answering corres- pondence either directed to him or that was presumably originating with him. And having had -- having interviewed some of the people who were in charge, it was indicated to me, also, that they were even intervening in Mary Sue Hubbard's letters to her own husband and extracting portions 1270 before they passed on the correspondence." MR. LITT: Your Honor, I am going to move to strike at least that portion. That is clearly hearsay, and I don't think it goes to any state of mind. THE COURT: Well, it is his statement with reference to his communications with Mr. Hubbard. MR. LITT: No, no. THE COURT: He finally comes to a conclusion that SO-1 has a full discretion as to correspondence with Mr. Hubbard. MR. LITT: Yes, and he says somebody else, not Mr. Hubbard or not any SO-1 communication, somebody told him something about the fact that SO-1 was doing this, that and the other thing. THE COURT: On second thought, I will agree with you. It is really getting out into left field. Pretty much hearsay, so we will strike -- MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I'd just be concerned with the last sentence between lines 5 and 7 on 69. Whether the other portion goes out on Mary Sue Hubbard, I don't'care. She's already testified she didn't think her correspondence was getting to him. But his understanding as to whether or not SO-1 -- "So, SO-1, it appeared to me, had the full discretion as to correspondence with L. Ron Hubbard." I think that goes to the state of mind as to who he believed he was dealing with. He believed he was dealing with Hubbard. THE COURT: All right. I will strike the portion 1271 that deals they were intervening in Mary Sue Hubbard's letters to her husband and extracting portions. That is on lines 2 through 5 on page 69. So we will go on. MR. FLYNN: (Reading:) "Q What does SO-1 stand for? "A Standing Order 1, I believe. And it was an organization that was set up, it's my understanding, to answer -- after all, L. Ron Hubbard couldn't possibly answer all the volume of correspondence that came in to him; it's humanly impossible. And they had certain -- his own family had certain stickers on letters so that they could reach him through SO-1 or through these channels, that they wouldn't be diverted into -- they would reach him personally. "Q Could you tell . . ." -- THE COURT: Skip down to line 24. MR. FLYNN: (Reading:) "Q With respect to the materials which you've indicated that led you to believe that Mr. Hubbard was not writing his own correspondence -- "A I was told that by -- I was told that by responsible representatives of the Church." 1272 MR. FLYNN: I don't care whether that goes out. MR. LITT: It doesn't matter. I'd just as soon leave it in. THE COURT: Okay. Then the witness begins on line 2. "A No. She said why was that my understanding." MR. LITT: He is just answering my objection, Your Honor. MR. FLYNN: Let's say we go down to line 15, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Wait a second. He's got some problem with this colloquy here. MR. LITT: The only thing, I think, that is relevant before line 15 is Mr. Garrison does state that he is not planning to be available for trial. THE COURT: What about this business of Dede? What does that have to do with it? MR. LITT: Of Dede? THE COURT: Have I got the right page? MR. PETERSON: It is the second half of the page. MR. LITT: We object to that as just further hearsay, just going on and on, and also it is just not relevant at this point. THE COURT: Well, let's go on to line 11, page 71. MR. FLYNN: (Reading:) "Q Have you ever personally met Mr. Hubbard? 1273 "A Only very briefly many, many years ago when Dianetics first came out. And I did a newspaper series on Dianetics here in Los Angeles, which again is a matter of record. "Q Can you recall what year that was? "A 1950 when Dianetics came out. "Q Was that the first and last time you have ever seen the man? "A Yes. "Q Were there any other publi- cations after PLAYING DIRTY other than your writing of the biography? "A Relating to Scientology? "Q Yes. "A No. "Q And when was PLAYING DIRTY published? "A I believe 1980. "Q Have you ever written any other biographical sketches of Mr. Hubbard? "A Never. "Q Have you ever written -- "A Apart -- wait a minute. I would correct that. I was provided with the usual Church biography, the official biography which I included briefly in 1274 another book of mine called the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PROPHESY, but this is repeating all the falsehoods that they have propounded over the years. It wasn't my original material." MR. LITT: Your Honor, I moved to strike that at that time and still move to strike it. THE COURT: All right. Everything after "ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PROPHESY" in that one sentence will be stricken. The last sentence can remain. "THE WITNESS: Anyway, the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PROPHESY. "Q When you say that you were provided with a Church biography, I assume that you put an LRH biography into the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PROPHESY; is that correct? "A Yes. "Q Was there something that you wrote yourself or -- "A Something I wrote myself based on material provided to me by Sue Anderson, who was his official PR Personal Public Relations representative at the time. I had no reason to believe that it wasn't completely true." MR. LITT: I am going to move to strike that last sentence. 1275 THE COURT: I will deny the motion. MR. FLYNN: (Reading:) "Q When were you first contacted with respect to the biography of Mr. Hubbard? "A It was approximately two years previous to the signing of the contract. "Q Who contacted you? "A David Gaiman -- sorry, first Sue Anderson. "Q And who did she represent? "A She was Mr. Hubbard's personal -- they call it Pers Pro, Personal Public Relations representative. "Q What did Miss or Mrs. Anderson request of you at that time? "A She sent me some correspondence saying that she had submitted this idea to Mr. Hubbard, and he said, 'Wonderful, good news. Omar is a very good writer.' So it was passed on to Mr. Hubbard -- I am sorry, to Mr. Gaiman to deal with me as he had been the intermediary for the previous books. "And I was very reluctant to do it, and I rejected the idea on the basis that they wanted what in the trade we call 1276 a 'puff,' that is, a laudatory sort of eulogy, and I was unwilling to do that. I felt that a biography -- well, I'm an honest reporter, and I felt that they would take out, they would eviscerate my copy because they would take out everything that they regarded as 'entheta' or unfavorable to him. 1277 MR. LITT: Your Honor, I move to strike after Mr. Garrison's first sentence in that response as nonresponsive. THE COURT: I'll deny the motion. "Q Mr. Garrison, what was it that made you believe that the representatives of the church wanted a -- what you called a 'puff' on L. Ron Hubbard? "A Because I had by this time read all their official biographies and had begun to learn from other sources that they were not accurate and that they were laudatory. And the very term 'puff' comes from Hollywood. It means to blow up or exaggerate. They used to do it for stars, change their ages or whatever in order to give them a public image. And I'm not an image maker. "Q Who did you have these discussions with? "A I had them with David Gaiman, Jane Kember; I had them with every Scientologist virtually that I came into contact with." MR. LITT: I'll reply verbally where I want to object, Your Honor. THE COURT: I guess I'll rule. I'll deny the motion. "Q What did they say to you in substance regarding what they -- 1278 "A Well, they -- "Q Let me finish -- regarding what type of biography you were to write? "A It doesn't call for hearsay because I have --" THE COURT: Go down to line 26. "THE WITNESS: Let me say this. This is all spelled out in correspondence. I have letters, long letters answering my objections, saying in substance 'we don't expect you to write a puff.' Indeed, we want you to write an honest biography. This was back and forth. And ultimately on that basis I agreed that I would do it and it would be a straight-forward honest account. "Q That was your understanding of -- "A That was my understanding. And that is as a matter of fact their understanding so far as their correspondence to me is concerned. "Q Do you still have possession of that correspondence? "A I do have, yes. "Q Specifically, who was that correspondence from? "A The -- at various times the long eventual, shall we say, summary letter from Sheila Gaiman, who was acting for her husband 1279 David, acting officially. David had gone to France to sort out this, a certain legal case they had there. And she was officially acting in his capacity. "Q Do you recall the approximate date of that letter? "A I don't know. But in looking for materials to return, I saw it as late as last week. "Q Did you keep that in a specific file? "A Yes. "Q Does the file have a name? "A It would be -- it was in the file. I had moved it from the correspondence file into a file called the 'biography-legal.' This is because I thought I might need it with respect to the instant case. "Q Can you recall how long these initial back-and-forth negotiations -- "A Two years. "Q -- took? "A Sorry. "Q This correspondence with Miss Anderson and the Gaimans and various other Scientologists took approximately two years? "A Uh-huh. "Q Is that 'yes'? 1280 "A Yes. "Q After this two-year period was it then that you entered into the October 1980 contract? "A Yes. As I said, upon their agreement that I could, shall I say, tell the truth. "Q Did you go to England for the purpose of entering into the contract? "A No. I spent a lot of time in England. We live there off and on. "Q Was there a specific reason that you did go to England in October of 1980? A I didn't go to England in October 1980. In October 1980 the contract was signed here in Los Angeles. "Q I'm sorry. Who was present when the contract was signed? "A Larry Brennan. Isn't his name 'Brennan'? Laurel Sullivan. I don't know whether Wertheimer -- I think -- at least he drew it up, so I assume. "Q Is that -- "A Alan Wertheimer. "Q Anyone else present? "A There could have been, but I don't recall. I don't recall. "Q I believe that you testified 1281 earlier that you first met Mr. Armstrong in East Grinstead sometime before this contract was signed? "A Yes. A couple of months, at least, before. "Q What was the purpose of your being in East Grinstead at the time? "A We were discussing the possibility of my doing the book at that time and finalizing any -- it was pretty well decided I would do it at that time. "Q Was that just one meeting or a series of meetings? "A One formal meeting in David Gaiman's office. And then Gerry made -- he addressed a meeting. And I was present there. So we talked informally. "Q Had you had any other meetings regarding your writing a book other than what you've already testified to which would have been the correspondence that went on for the two-year period preceding the contract and this one formal meeting that took place in Mr. Gaiman's office? "A And the answer is 'yes.' "Q What were those meetings? "A At the time that I was doing Playing Dirty, I had occasion to meet with 1282 Mr. Gaiman several times respecting material for the book. And he showed me a letter from Sue Anderson accusing him of dragging his feet about getting me to do the biography. So that sparked a discussion as to whether I would do it. "Q Who was present at this first formal meeting with Mr. Gaiman in his office? "A As nearly as I recall, I think Gerry Armstrong was there. Of course, Mr. Gaiman, Mr. Gaiman's secretary was -- whose name escapes me at the moment, a very attractive girl, too. But also I believe that Herbie -- what's his name? Herbie -- "Q Parkhouse? "A Herbie Parkhouse for part of the meeting was present. David called Herbie up with respect to, I think, some sort of financial arrangement. Herbie was the man who was known as the Flag Banking Office or whatever, Worldwide. 1283 "Q How long did this meeting last? "A Oh, a couple of hours, and we repaired for lunch, and I think altogether about three hours." MR. LITT: Your Honor, if I may, we object to the next approximately three pages which are essentially dis- cussions at negotiation meetings, which are -- I am not sure what purpose they are introduced for, but I don't think they are relevant if it is for interpreting the contract. I don't really think it does anything to do that, and for any other purpose it is not really relevant. Mr. Garrison wanders on a bit here and makes all kinds of statements about his feelings, about that he had bad feelings about this and that. MR. FLYNN: I think, Your Honor, I don't necessarily request that some of the material on page 79 should go into evidence. However, on page 80, I believe his feelings with regard to total disclosure regarding Mr. Hubbard's life was a very important consideration, and as Your Honor will see, a prerequisite of Mr. Garrison was that he be given total access to all of L. Ron Hubbard's personal files; and it was for this reason that he did request that, which goes to the issue of what he was entitled to have, and therefore what Mr. Armstrong was entitled to have. MR. LITT: Your Honor, the issue in this case is what was done with it after it was given to Mr. Garrison. MR. FLYNN: The issue is whether Mr. Garrison is a 1284 bailee and could properly make Mr. Armstrong a bailee. MR. LITT: Well, I won't get into that. THE COURT: Well, I will sustain the objection. Basically all he is saying is he had some thoughts about what should be done but they weren't expressed. So it seems to me it is substantially just his own mental thoughts that he was going through. This isn't the meeting in England. This is some meeting that he had with Mr. Gayman and somebody else on an earlier occasion. I think the -- MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, what that refers to, there earlier had been an individual engaged to write the biography who discovered the same falsehoods, and he was taken off the project. THE COURT: Well, he just says that is how he felt. He might get the same treatment. "Q Did you discuss that with . . . the individuals . . .? "A . . . I don't remember, but it had been the subject of extensive discussion prior to that." MR. FLYNN: "But it had been the subject of extensive discussion prior to that." THE COURT: He's already testified. It is cumulative. I will sustain the objection. We will take a recess and reconvene, I guess, on page 81, line 24. (At 11:58 a.m., a recess was taken until 1:30 p.m. of the same day.) 1285 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, MAY 9, 1984; 1:30 P.M. ---o0o--- THE COURT: All right. We are back in session. Counsel are present. You may continue where you left off. MR. FLYNN: Page 81, line 24, Your Honor. THE COURT: Yes. MR. FLYNN: (Reading:) "Q At that meeting with Mr. Gaiman and the other individuals, was it ever represented to you that Mr. Armstrong would be your research assistant for the biography? "A It was. "Q Who represented this to you? "A Mr. Gaiman. "Q Anyone else? "A Well, he was in charge. "Q Was it also discussed at this meeting what materials you would be provided for the writing of the biography? "A Not beyond a general saying it -- what was needful, because no one knew what there was, I guess. "Q Prior to your entering into the agreement which is attached as Exhibit 1, was there ever any discussion as to what 1286 materials you would be provided for the writing of the biography? "A There was not. "Q Was it your understanding that at that first formal meeting in Mr. Gaiman's office that Mr. Armstrong in some manner represented the interests of Mr. Hubbard? "A Yes, I thought he did. "Q What led you to believe that he represented the interests of Mr. Hubbard? "A For the simple reason that he had -- I was told that he had chargbe or would have charge -- it was unclear in my mind at the time -- would have charge of documents pertaining to Mr. Hubbard's life, documents which would only be properly in the possession of the subject himself. "Q Was it at that time that you were told that Mr. Armstrong's title was 'Archivist'? "A Yes. 1287 "What was the result of the meeting in Mr. Gaiman's office? "A The -- well, to put it succinctly, it was tentatively agreed that if we came to a meeting of minds with regard to and the terms of a contract, that I would then proceed with a biography. "Q What terms was it that there was no meeting of the minds on? "A I wanted two reassurances, first of all, in writing, with respect to a freedom of presenting my material and, secondly, to have -- to restrict the vetting of the contract to those persons that I would name as acceptable to me. "Q Do you mean vetting of the contract or vetting of the biography? "A Biography. Oh, sorry. "Q Essentially, those things that you still had to agree upon were that you wanted reassurance regarding freedom in the presentation of your material, and you also wished to restrict the vetting of the biography to persons selected by yourself; is that correct? "A I insisted upon the latter point, that those acceptable to me would be named in the contract. "Q Did you eventually reach an agreement 1288 with respect to these two issues? "A Yes. "Q When was that agreement reached? "A At the time the contract was drawn in October, 1980. "Q You've testified that Mr. Wertheimer drew up the actual agreement; is that correct? "A Yes, he did. "Q Did you have any -- " MR. LITT: Objection, Your Honor. I objected to that on the grounds that there was no foundation and that it was hearsay. And Ms. Dragojevic then tried, I would say unsuccessfully, to establish such a foundation. So we would move to strike that answer. Mr. Garrison doesn't know who prepared the contract. THE COURT: Let's go on and I will come back to it. Is there other testimony relating to it? MR. FLYNN: (Reading): "Q Did you have any contact with Mr. Wertheimer prior to October, 1980? "A I did not. "Q When did you first meet Mr. Wertheimer? "A October, 1980 -- " MR. LITT: I withdraw my objection. I forgot I had gone over that and it was established. I am sorry. Keep reading. MR. PETERSON: I think I was in the middle of an answer. 1289 (Reading): "A October, 1980, when I went to his office first to thrash out the terms of the contract. "Q Was that prior to October 30, 1980, when the agreement was signed? "A It was. "Q Was there anyone else present at that time when you went to thrash out the terms of the agreement with Mr. Wertheimer? "A Yes. "Q Who else was present? "A Laurel Sullivan was present. There was some other person, but I don't recall who it was. Oh, it must -- perhaps it was Larry Brennan. I'm not sure, but it was some other representative from -- I know -- I don't know who it was. "Q Were there any meetings that took place between the formal meeting that you had in East Grinstead with Mr. Gaiman and this meeting in Mr. Wertheimer's office? "A You mean face-to-face meetings? "Q Yes. "A No. "Q At the time you were in Mr. Wertheimer's office in October of 1980, did you actually sit down with him to write the terms of the agreement? "A We didn't write the terms at that time. 1290 We sat down around a conference table and had a rather hyperthyroid session. Strike 'hyper- thyroid' as being too responsive. "Q Was it at that time that an agreement was reached with respect to those two issues that you set forth earlier? "A No. It was agreed prior to that time in substance. Part of it was filled out at that time with respect to who would vet the contract, and that was, indeed, written into the contract. "Q When was the rest of it decided? In correspondence? "A In -- yes, in correspondence previous to that time. "Q And who was the correspondence with? "A Well, as I've referred to it, the one immediately preceding was from Sheila Gaiman, but there were others as well. "Q Who did you understand Mr. Wertheimer to represent? "A Mr. L. Ron Hubbard. "Q Did Mr. Wertheimer -- " MR. LITT: We would move to strike this and the remainder of that. It is all hearsay, Your Honor. The witness has no personal knowledge. 1291 THE COURT: All right. I will strike it. MR. FLYNN: (Reading:) "Q Did Mr. Wertheimer tell you that he represented L. Ron Hubbard?" MR. LITT: Same objection; hearsay. MR. FLYNN: Should I go down to -- THE COURT: Bottom of the page, line 28. MR. LITT: Line 28. MR. FLYNN: (Reading:) "Q And who was it that you understood Larry Brennan represented? "A He said he had power of attorney for New Era Publications, I believe -- sorry, strike that. It was Pubs DK. "Q And who did you understand Laurel Sullivan to represent? "A She was at that time, she -- to put it in the quaint Scientology terminology, she wore two hats. The one that was related to me was that she was Mr. Hubbard's I believe, Personal Public Relations representative. "Q Were there any representatives of the Church of Scientology at this meeting at Mr. Wertheimer's office? "A I don't know. "Q Was it your understanding that 1292 the Church of Scientology would be a party to the contract? "A Absolutely not. "Q On what basis do you feel that they were not a party to the contract? "A Well, because I discussed it. I had no contractual relationship with the Church of Scientology whatsoever. "Q Who did you understand your contractual relationship to be with?" MR. LITT: Your Honor, I am going to object to that. There is no foundation for the remainder of this page through line 18 of the following page. Further- more, the contract speaks for itself in terms of who the contract was with. Mr. Garrison expresses an opinion as to whether or not Pubs DK is an alter ego of L. Ron Hubbard. That is the basis of his claim, that he contracted with L. Ron Hubbard for which there is no foundation. MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, could I be heard? THE COURT: Yes, go ahead. MR. FLYNN: The basis of Mr. Armstrong's claim is that he had a contract. Mr. Armstrong had a contract with Mr. Hubbard, and Mr. Armstrong believed that Mr. Garrison had a contract with Mr. Hubbard based upon the tripartite contract between he and Pubs DK and Pubs DK and L. Ron Hubbard. That is why we feel that that contract is relevant 1293 to interpreting the contract between Pubs DK and the Garrison contract. THE COURT: It seems to me that your client's state of mind would have relevance to all of these matters. I don't really see that Mr. Garrison's state of mind and who he believed he might be contracting with is all that relevant. I will sustain the objection. Let's go over to line 20, page 88. MR. FLYNN: (Reading:) "Q Did you essentially hammer out the terms of the agreement at this meeting at Mr. Wertheimer's office? "A Not the ones that eventually appeared in the contract, I'm afraid. "Q Did you ever see a draft of the contract before October 30, 1980? "A I did not. "Q Were any changes made to the contract on October 30, 1980 -- "A Yes. Sorry. "Q -- when you signed it? "A As you will see in the contract itself, I was concerned about the premium edition which I was informed could not be spelled out in detail in the contract at the time because the church was legally holding that they had no contract" -- MR. FLYNN: No contact. 1294 MR. PETERSON: Oh, I am sorry. "no contact with Mr. Hubbard, and therefore there would be no way of saying that he would sign these books. So when I read the contract, I said never- theless I'm going to write in and initial a reference to premium editions, which in fact I did." MR. LITT: With respect to the first p