======== To: tilman@berlin.snafu.de Subject: 1 From: dev-null@no-id.com Date: 19 May 2002 04:27:59 -0000 -------- 1 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 15 DATE: May 3, 2002, morning session. 16 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 17 St. Petersburg, Florida. 18 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 19 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, 20 Notary Public, State of Florida at large. 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 12 MS. HELENA KOBRIN MOXON & KOBRIN 13 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 14 Attorney for David Houghton. 15 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 16 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 17 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 18 Organization. 19 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor 20 New York, New York 10003 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 21 Organization. 22 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 23 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 24 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 3 1 2 ALSO PRESENT: 3 Ms. Donna West Ms. Dell Liebreich 4 Mr. Rick Spector Mr. Allan Cartwright 5 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller 6 Mr. Ben Shaw Ms. Joyce Earl 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 5 1 THE COURT: I forgot to tell you, I think they 2 have 400 jurors summoned for a -- 3 MR. WIENBERG: We're all going to be 4 contributing to the city of Clearwater. 5 THE COURT: Exactly. 6 And remind me, if this case goes forward, to 7 discuss with you jury matters, kind of. We will, 8 ahead of time -- as I understand it, civil jurors 9 are selected south and north of Ulmerton Road, which 10 is the way it's always been done. Criminal jurors 11 are selected countywide. If there's going to be a 12 problem with the civil jurors that way, then we may 13 want to, as much as I would dislike the drive, go to 14 the criminal complex, pick the jury where they're 15 summonsed every day. We could go day-to-day, 16 day-to-day, until we had a jury, and then bring them 17 down here. 18 So I don't know if that's going to be an issue. 19 I could do the same thing down here. But they're 20 going to be different sides of the dividing line. 21 And if that's going to be an issue, I want it 22 raised, I want it heard, so that -- so that the jury 23 coordinator can figure out what we want to do there. 24 As is my custom, I'll tell you what I've had a 25 chance to get through last night. And it wasn't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 6 1 everything. I did the best I could, but I just 2 couldn't read any more law about 1:00. 3 But for once I took your cases first. I took 4 the defense cases and read all of them. Maybe 5 because it was a smaller packet. 6 I did have a chance to read the original 7 affidavit of Jesse Prince. And I see now that -- 8 why there's going to be a motion for summary 9 judgment, and I see now what the complaint is really 10 about. I frankly went back and reread it. I think 11 that we -- that the allegations are clearly a -- 12 either intentional act or -- or culpable negligence 13 manslaughter. And I -- I even brought some of the 14 criminal law in here and the standard jury 15 instructions, went back and reviewed what 16 manslaughter is. 17 Manslaughter can be by intentional act or by 18 culpable negligence. Which we all know what that 19 is. If you don't, read the jury instructions and 20 you'll find it. 21 I think, as I read the complaint, that that is 22 the path that the plaintiff has alleged. And I 23 think Mr. Dandar confirmed that yesterday. I think 24 that I probably misspoke. And a lot of that was 25 just due to the fact that I guess I thought the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 7 1 case -- you know how it is when you just don't read 2 a complaint; I really hadn't read that complaint 3 very carefully. As I read it, I probably have 4 erred. The mere fact that somebody isn't a party or 5 is dismissed as a party doesn't mean that the person 6 can't be mentioned in the proof. So summary 7 judgment's going to be -- Mr. Fugate had indicated 8 there would be two summary judgments forthcoming at 9 some point in time. You'll file it, we'll hear it. 10 If there's -- if there's an issue of fact, then 11 obviously it'll go to the jury. And that's the 12 tack -- I was wrong yesterday. So we'll work that 13 out at a later proceeding as to exactly what -- what 14 parts of the complaint can go forward, and if some 15 can't, what those are. That really isn't for this 16 hearing. And I -- 17 Except for the fact that I do think that what 18 was stated as to whatever Mr. Prince's involvement 19 was to get the case in the present posture may have 20 some -- some bearing. 21 Maybe that's why judges are passivists, so they 22 just sit back and don't say too much, and then they 23 don't have to renege on what they said. 24 In any event, I read the -- as I said, all of 25 the law. I read the original affidavit of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 8 1 Mr. Prince. 2 I did not read your notice of filing excerpts 3 of Mr. Minton's depositions because I had really 4 kind of read them throughout. I assume that you'll 5 be referring to what you want to refer to in this 6 hearing, so I didn't take the time to read all of 7 that once I realized that it's the four different 8 depositions, and I assume you're going to refer to 9 what you think is important. 10 I did read notice of filing affidavit in 11 opposition that was filed as an affidavit by 12 Mr. Prince, in its entirety. I did read as many of 13 the defense cases -- I'm sorry -- yeah. I said 14 defense. I get the parties all confused. 15 I read the plaintiff's cases, all of the 16 plaintiff's cases. I read the defendant's cases 17 real quick. I just kind of glanced through them. I 18 noticed that you all refer to some of the same 19 cases. I probably got -- 20 Well, I see, at page -- at tab 12, I'm 21 underlining, and I see that on 14 I made some 22 comments. So I haven't finished that. I'll take it 23 home again this weekend and try to read through the 24 rest of the law. 25 I read enough of the law to be -- to be Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 9 1 persuaded that I must do two things here. And that 2 is, on any disqualification motion, it appears there 3 needs to be an evidentiary hearing and there needs 4 to be findings of fact. I assume therefore that 5 means whether the court grants disqualification or 6 doesn't grant disqualification, there needs to be a 7 full evidentiary hearing and finding of fact that 8 can be reviewed. So we're going to go forward today 9 with the evidentiary hearing. 10 I also read a case, I believe, provided by the 11 defendant, that talked about allegations of fraud. 12 Says, "The court should adhere to due process, 13 adversarial practice and evidentiary rule in 14 conducting an inquiry into charges that fraud have 15 been perpetrated on the court." I believe that was 16 a dismissal of the charge. I think it was one of 17 our local judges, actually. When I -- I read that 18 and I also saw another case that seems to say that 19 before the court should consider dismissing the 20 case, there should be an evidentiary hearing. 21 Putting all of that together, I think that it 22 would behoove us to go on ahead and have the 23 evidentiary hearing, and we shall do that. 24 I'm still fairly comfortable with the reading 25 of the transcripts. However, I'm assuming that both Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 10 1 Mr. Dandar will be testifying before me, so that I 2 can observe him, and Mr. Minton will be as well. If 3 that doesn't happen, then this court is going to 4 have to judge credibility. And in all probability, 5 I need -- I need that. I mean, I think as long as 6 there's some testimony where I can observe the 7 witness and see the demeanor of the witness while 8 testifying, the types of things I would normally do. 9 Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes 10 you have to look to the words that are spoken and 11 how it makes sense. But sometimes it does. So if 12 I'm going to be judging credibility, I'm going to 13 have to see both of those persons live, at least in 14 part. 15 So I know Mr. Dandar's going to testify this 16 morning, so that would be an opportunity for me to 17 observe him. And I assume Mr. Minton is coming in 18 on Monday, and that would be an opportunity to 19 observe him. 20 MR. FUGATE: That's correct, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: So as long as I'm able to observe 22 these people in -- in some fashion in testimony 23 before me, I'm still comfortable taking the rest of 24 it and introducing it as part of this hearing in 25 their testimony, because I think I'll have an Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 11 1 adequate opportunity to observe them. 2 If that's going to be an issue, in fairness -- 3 I could understand it; I could understand why you'd 4 want me to say, "You've got to see it all," and I'll 5 do that. But I think if we're still in agreement 6 that as long as I see both of the -- what I would 7 call principal witnesses, as to some of the issues, 8 that I can -- I can judge their credibility by 9 seeing them in part, that's fine. 10 So if you all are still comfortable with that, 11 that's fine. If you decide you're not, let me know. 12 Let's see. 13 So we're going to have an evidentiary hearing. 14 I read a case, kind of a brief case, that kind 15 of implied that an attorney's misdeeds could cause a 16 case to be dismissed and allow the person to have an 17 action against the attorney, or at least they said 18 the judge didn't abuse her discretion, even though 19 the appellate court wouldn't have done that. So you 20 know, I've read enough now where I feel comfortable 21 that I have an understanding of the issues much 22 better than I did before. 23 Thank goodness the perjury cases I read said 24 what I thought they would say. I did forget this. 25 But materiality is an issue for the court alone. So Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 12 1 that's a matter of law. So I'm going to have to 2 make that determination as a matter of law. 3 And there's another element in there that we 4 tend to forget about, and it can be critical in this 5 case, particularly as it may pertain to all of the 6 witnesses, and that is that they not only give false 7 testimony, but that they know that it's false. In 8 other words, that they know when they're making it 9 that it's false testimony. 10 Materiality, as I said, is an issue of law. 11 So having had a chance -- 12 I was thinking that we presented that to the 13 jury, to be quite candid. But apparently not. 14 So I learned something last night, got myself 15 refreshed. You know, I hate to tell you all this, 16 but fortunately, I don't have to deal with these 17 issues every day. So it was good that I had this 18 law to look at to see where we're going. I think I 19 have enough direction now that I -- from the cases 20 provided, that I know what I need to be listening 21 to, and will do so, and will complete the reading of 22 the cases provided to me by the church this weekend. 23 I don't imagine we're going to finish today. 24 So by the time Monday rolls around, hopefully I'll 25 have had a chance to read everybody's cases. Okay? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 13 1 So that's where we are. 2 So with that in mind, we might as well begin to 3 complete the evidentiary hearing begun by Judge 4 Baird. And I assume that at some point in time, 5 since this testimony will not be a part of this 6 proceeding, that we had better -- and I have copies, 7 but I'd sure like to keep my copies -- we had better 8 introduce into evidence in this proceeding the total 9 transcript, copy of the total transcript of the 10 hearing before Judge Baird. And I'm talking now 11 about the evidentiary hearing where there was cross 12 examination and that type of thing, the two days of 13 testimony. 14 MR. WIENBERG: Why don't we just call that 15 Court Exhibit 1? 16 THE COURT: That would be fine. Court 17 Exhibit 1, agreed to by both sides. That would be 18 testimony the court would consider as if it was 19 given live in front of her. 20 MR. LIROT: Agreed to. 21 THE COURT: Agreed. 22 (Court's Exhibit Number 1 marked.) 23 MR. WIENBERG: And just as in that hearing, we 24 would invoke the rule as it relates to witnesses. 25 THE COURT: Okay. The -- Madam Clerk, I can't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 14 1 give that to you yet, but somebody will provide a 2 copy of this to the clerk as the court's exhibit at 3 some point. I don't -- I can't give her mine 4 because I need it. If I give her mine, I don't have 5 one. 6 MR. FUGATE: We'll -- we'll -- we'll get a copy 7 and make sure that Mr. Lirot -- oh -- 8 THE COURT: You know what I'm talking about? I 9 don't need the day where Mr. Minton testified in his 10 contempt hearing before Judge Baird. That's not 11 what I perceive we're supposed to be doing; the full 12 evidentiary hearing with the due process, 13 adversarial practice. And so that wasn't it. 14 That's a different proceeding. 15 MR. WIENBERG: Well, we'll get it together and 16 by Monday we'll -- 17 THE COURT: Okay. Right. 18 MR. WIENBERG: -- we'll -- 19 MR. DANDAR: All right. So I believe where the 20 case left off in front of Judge Baird was the -- the 21 church, who was plaintiff there, had concluded with 22 Mr. Dandar, on calling him again, or recall or 23 finishing up or whatever it was, and Mr. Lirot, you 24 had not at all cross examined. Is that where we 25 were? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 15 1 MR. LIROT: That's correct, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: So Mr. Dandar, if you want to 3 resume the stand? 4 MR. LIROT: If I may, Judge -- 5 THE COURT: You may. 6 MR. LIROT: -- we have a witness, Mr. Leipold 7 in California -- 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MR. LIROT: If we could call him out of 10 order -- we had talked yesterday about introducing 11 his letter and having him authenticate that letter. 12 I'd like to try to get him on the phone first. I 13 understand he has travel plans. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. LIROT: So if that's acceptable to the 16 court -- 17 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, may I address that? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 MR. HERTZBERG: I want to bring to the court's 20 attention the fact that Mr. Leipold is an attorney 21 in California who has represented both Robert Minton 22 and Stacy Brooks within the past -- well, last 23 April -- at a deposition in a matter that's pending 24 in the Middle District in Tampa before Judge 25 Whittemore, and Mr. Leipold's firm represented Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 16 1 Mr. Minton as well at a deposition in this very 2 litigation several years ago. 3 And we're all aware that Mr. Minton's attorney 4 is not in -- present today. And it just raised a 5 question in my mind -- we don't have the standing to 6 raise it, but I was wondering to myself, and now I'm 7 wondering out loud, whether there may be some 8 privilege issues that are implicated by this 9 gentleman rendering any testimony with respect to 10 conversations he's had with Mr. Minton, or 11 Ms. Brooks, for that matter. 12 THE COURT: Could be. 13 MR. HERTZBERG: And it -- perhaps -- 14 THE COURT: I don't know that that's what he 15 was going to do. I thought he was going to 16 authenticate a document. 17 MR. LIROT: That's correct, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: So with that -- 19 MR. HERTZBERG: Is the document -- may I -- may 20 I ask whether -- whether that document is a document 21 that has to do at all, Mr. Lirot, with conversations 22 between -- purported conversations between 23 Mr. Minton and -- and his attorney, Mr. Leipold? 24 THE COURT: That's another issue. 25 The issue is whether this witness can Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 17 1 authenticate a document. Whether the document's 2 admissible can raise any issue that Mr. Minton's 3 lawyer wants to raise. And if I think that it looks 4 like it's privileged, we'll wait till we see what 5 Mr. Minton's attorney wants to say. I don't know 6 what the document says. 7 But if this witness is available to 8 authenticate a document, saying, "I wrote this 9 document," then I think he can testify to that, 10 regardless of any privilege. Whether it comes in or 11 not is a different matter. 12 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, may we see a copy 13 of the letter? 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 MR. HERTZBERG: I asked for that earlier. 16 THE COURT: Can I see it? 17 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge. If I may approach? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 Well, of course, any objection that maybe 20 wanted to be made can be made. But once you publish 21 something -- of course, I don't know. Mr. Minton, I 22 suppose, could still raise an objection. 23 Who is Mr. Wollersheim? I see his name pop up 24 from time to time. 25 MR. DANDAR: He's a former Scientologist who's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 18 1 been in litigation with the church since, I think, 2 '82. 3 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, he's -- 4 THE COURT: In a what kind of suit? 5 MR. DANDAR: Emotional distress; intentional 6 infliction of emotional distress. 7 THE COURT: He's a plaintiff against the 8 church. 9 MR. DANDAR: And he has a judgment. 10 MR. HERTZBERG: He's represented by Mr. Leipold 11 using the same witnesses that essentially have been 12 used here and -- 13 THE COURT: I don't need to know that right 14 now. What I need to know is, Mr. Leipold is a 15 plaintiff who's suing the church? Is that it? 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 17 MR. LIROT: Mr. Leipold's counsel for the 18 plaintiff. 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Mr. Wollersheim is -- 20 MR. LIROT: That's correct, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: -- a plaintiff suing the church in 22 California. 23 MR. LIROT: Correct. 24 THE COURT: And Mr. Leipold is his lawyer? 25 MR. LIROT: That's correct. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 19 1 MR. HERTZBERG: Not suing this church, your 2 Honor. 3 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 4 MR. HERTZBERG: He's not suing this church. 5 THE COURT: Okay. The Flag. 6 MR. HERTZBERG: Yes. He's not suing the Flag 7 Service Organization. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let's call him the 9 man. I guess all you want him to do is say he has a 10 copy of this letter in front of him and it's an 11 authentic document? 12 MR. LIROT: Correct, Judge. We had some just 13 very brief fill-in inquiry of him. 14 MR. HERTZBERG: See, that's what I object to. 15 If they simply want to ask him did he write this 16 letter, which the copy I have is unsigned -- if they 17 want to ask him if he sent this May 1st, 2000 letter 18 to Mr. Dandar, I suppose that would authenticate it 19 and I probably won't have any questions at that 20 point. 21 But this is testimony, this letter. And if 22 they're going to go into it, I'm going to object. 23 Because first of all, I -- if -- if they go into 24 substance, it's going to implicate the area that 25 I've identified, where I think Mr. Howie's input is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 20 1 required. And moreover, we're -- I'm going to want 2 to show him documents and -- and cross examine him 3 with documents. And we can't do that by telephone. 4 So I would reserve the -- you know -- 5 THE COURT: What -- 6 MR. HERTZBERG: If -- 7 THE COURT: What are you -- 8 MR. LIROT: Judge -- 9 THE COURT: What are you wanting to fill in? 10 MR. LIROT: -- only foundational material, 11 explaining to the court what the Wollersheim case 12 is, and I think to establish just a brief 13 description of the cause of action. Probably no 14 different than what Mr. Dandar did. Nothing that 15 would require extensive cross examination. And all 16 we want to do is be able to establish that whatever 17 conversations took place between he and Ms. Brooks 18 have nothing to do with this case, so there's no 19 privilege that would attach to something that 20 happened in the Wollersheim case. That's it. 21 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I have two 22 responses. 23 First of all, I think Mr. Howie has -- who's 24 now representing, in this case, at this hearing, 25 these witnesses who have been represented by Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 21 1 Mr. Leipold, will have to be apprised and have any 2 input on whether privileges are implicated or not. 3 Mr. Lirot's representation that they are not is 4 sufficient. 5 THE COURT: Nothing he just told me has a thing 6 to do with any privilege. 7 MR. HERTZBERG: Well, the other point I would 8 like to make, to raise an issue, is a relevancy 9 objection. I don't know why in the world this court 10 needs to be filled in by this witness in California 11 about a case that's pending in Los Angeles. I -- I 12 don't see what the purpose is. So I guess I'm 13 baffled as to why we're undertaking this enterprise 14 at all. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, the only reason that we want 16 to ask Mr. Leipold anything has nothing to do with 17 any confidential or privileged information. Has to 18 do with money, his dealing with Mr. Minton as far as 19 money. 20 I don't care what they said about anything. 21 All I want to do is show that Mr. Minton has a 22 custom and practice of funding these types of cases, 23 that -- if they involved the Church of Scientology 24 for any reason. And that quite honestly, a number 25 of issues that have been critical to us made by Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 22 1 opposing counsel are something that Mr. Minton has a 2 standard of doing, to show that he's in the habit of 3 giving away a lot of money, never gets an agreement 4 in writing. None of that's privileged. 5 And there's no order such as what we have with 6 the Second DCA. I don't believe there's any 7 companion order in the Wollersheim case. So we can 8 ask about money in that case. 9 THE COURT: I think that's relevant. 10 MR. HERTZBERG: Why would that have any 11 relevancy, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: Doesn't matter -- 13 MR. HERTZBERG: Why would Mr. -- 14 THE COURT: -- what you think. I said I think 15 it's relevant. That's the end of that. 16 All right. Let's go ahead. 17 MR. LIROT: Judge -- 18 MR. HERTZBERG: Before we get him on the phone, 19 your Honor, how am I going to cross examine him with 20 documents if -- 21 THE COURT: See what you need and we'll see if 22 we can do it. If we can't, why, we'll have to 23 strike his testimony. 24 MR. LIROT: Candidly, Judge, I don't think he's 25 going to exceed the scope of any question, so I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 23 1 don't know what documents he's going to have. But 2 we'll get to that when we get to that. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 MR. LIROT: Shall I dial the number, Judge? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 (Phone call being made.) 7 THE COURT: You're absolutely going to get into 8 no conversations between him and anyone he's ever 9 represented, particularly Mr. Minton, whose lawyer's 10 not here. 11 MR. LIROT: I'll be cautious, your Honor. 12 MR. FUGATE: May I be excused a moment, your 13 Honor? I'm not going to be -- 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 MR. LIEPOLD: Hello? 16 MR. LIROT: Mr. Leipold? 17 MR. LIEPOLD: Yeah. 18 MR. LIROT: Good morning. This is Luke Lirot. 19 I'm before Judge Schaeffer. We're in court right 20 now. There is a court reporter taking down your 21 statements this morning. 22 Could you please state your name and spell -- 23 THE COURT: Wait -- wait just a minute. 24 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 25 THE COURT: Hi. Mr. Leipold? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 24 1 MR. LIEPOLD: Good morning. 2 THE COURT: Good morning. My name is Judge 3 Schaeffer. How are you? 4 MR. LIEPOLD: I'm fine. 5 THE COURT: Mr. Leipold, if I were to ask you 6 to raise your right hand and receive an oath, would 7 you understand that, while you're here in front of 8 this court on the phone, that I would perceive and 9 consider that oath to be binding, and therefore 10 whatever oaths mean in Cal- -- in Florida, I'm sure 11 they mean in California? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: And would you do that for me? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I will. 15 THE COURT: Would you raise your right hand? 16 ___________________________________ 17 DANIEL LEIPOLD, 18 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 19 and testified as follows: 20 THE COURT: You may lower your hand. And thank 21 you. 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Could you please state your name and spell your 25 last name for the record? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 25 1 A My name is Daniel Leipold, L-e-i-p-o-l-d. 2 Q And Mr. Leipold, how are you employed? 3 A I'm an attorney. 4 Q And are you a member of the California bar in good 5 standing? 6 A Yes, I am. 7 Q Have you had an opportunity to litigate a cause of 8 action with a gentleman by the name of Larry Wollersheim and 9 I guess what I'll call an affiliate of the Church of 10 Scientology? 11 A I am Mr. Wollersheim's attorney in an action 12 against the Church of Scientology in California that also 13 includes the Church of Scientology International and 14 Religious Technology Center. 15 Q All right. Could you briefly describe the nature 16 of that cause of action to the court? 17 MR. HERTZBERG: Objection, your Honor. 18 Relevance. 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 A As to -- 21 THE COURT: You may -- you may be right, but I 22 want to hear it. And I may just throw it out. But 23 I don't know because I don't know what it is, so -- 24 A This is a case that was tried to judgment in 1986. 25 And there is -- it is currently -- the judgment is currently Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 26 1 worth approximately $8.6 million, and I am in post-trial 2 proceedings to apply the judgment against Religious 3 Technology Center and Church of Scientology International as 4 the alter-egos of Church of Scientology of California, in 5 order to collect the judgment. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right. And have you had an opportunity to use 8 expert witnesses and consultants in that cause of action? 9 A Yes, I have. 10 Q Can you tell this court who those individuals 11 would be? 12 A I've used a number of them. One would be Robert 13 Vaughn Young, another would be Stacy Young, and another 14 would be Jesse Prince. 15 Q All right. And in that litigation, have you had 16 an opportunity to file a declaration? And I guess what 17 I'll -- I'll ask, are you aware that a declaration is the 18 equivalent of what we call in Florida an affidavit? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And can you tell the court what the significance 21 of a declaration is under the California Rules of Civil 22 Procedure? 23 A It is -- 24 MR. HERTZBERG: Objection, your Honor. 25 A It is -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 27 1 THE COURT: Overruled. 2 A -- essentially the same thing as an affidavit, 3 only in California you don't have to have a notary republic 4 (sic) sign for the witness. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q All right. And did you have an opportunity to 7 receive such a declaration from Stacy Brooks? 8 A In the Wollersheim case? Yes -- 9 Q That's correct. 10 A -- I did. 11 Q Were there any developments regarding Ms. Brooks 12 and the tender of that declaration to the court in your 13 case? 14 A I filed the declaration originally, I believe, 15 sometime in mid-1997, and I received a telephone call from 16 Ms. Brooks on April 8th, I believe, 2002, in which she told 17 me that she and Robert Minton were attempting to settle 18 legal actions against them or settle with the Church of 19 Scientology, and she wished me to withdraw that declaration 20 from the -- from the court. And then later that day, Bob 21 Minton -- 22 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor -- 23 A -- he asked me to dismiss that action on behalf of 24 my client. 25 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, we now have him Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 28 1 discussing the substance of conversations with 2 Ms. Brooks, who he has represented as an attorney. 3 This is exactly what I feared would happen and why I 4 felt it was necessary for Mr. Howie to address this 5 issue before we went -- 6 THE COURT: Mr. Howie -- 7 MR. HERTZBERG: -- down this -- 8 THE COURT: -- doesn't represent Ms. Brooks. 9 Is Mr. -- 10 MR. HERTZBERG: Mr. McGowan. He's not present. 11 But I don't know how this lawyer, who has 12 represented both of those witnesses, can testify 13 about conversations with either of them. 14 THE COURT: Counsel, did you ever represent 15 Stacy Brooks? 16 THE WITNESS: I have represented her at 17 deposition. 18 THE COURT: Well, I guess that's 19 representation. 20 So that testimony will be stricken from the 21 record until such time as we can see whether or not 22 there's an objection to it by her lawyer. 23 THE WITNESS: All right. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Mr. Leipold, did you have an opportunity to author Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 29 1 a letter dated May 1st, 2002, sent via facsimile to Ken 2 Dandar of the firm Dandar and Dandar? 3 A Yes. 4 MR. LIROT: And Judge -- 5 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I'm going to object 6 to any questions about this letter. This -- the 7 letter is entirely, in terms of substance, about 8 conversations he purportedly had with Stacy Brooks 9 and Robert Minton. 10 THE COURT: All I heard him ask is whether he 11 authored this letter. 12 MR. HERTZBERG: Well, I'm anticipating. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, with all caution, if 15 we could do an offer of proof, I could read the 16 letter into the record and ask him to authenticate 17 the text of the letter. 18 THE COURT: I think that all you need to do, if 19 we're trying to authenticate the letter, is ask him 20 if he wrote it. Let's just get enough information 21 from him to make sure that this is the same letter 22 we're talking about. 23 MR. LIROT: All right. 24 THE COURT: Such as it's dated May 1st, dated 25 (sic) to Ken Dandar of Dandar and Dandar. It has a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 30 1 telephone number or fax number, (813)287-0895, Re 2 conversations with Robert Minton and Stacy Brooks. 3 It's a one-, two-, three-page letter. 4 I mean, if you want, I'll read the whole letter 5 here to get it authenticated. 6 MR. LIROT: I would like that, Judge. 7 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Mr. Leipold, I'm going to read this letter. I'm 10 going to ask you to correct anything that you think's 11 incorrect. And I'll ask you to authenticate simply the 12 contents of the letter. 13 And it says -- 14 MR. HERTZBERG: Well, wait. Wait. The 15 contents, as I understand, is the substance of it. 16 I think -- 17 THE COURT: Do you agree that the letter is 18 authentic and he would testify that this is the same 19 letter? And then we'll argue about the contents or 20 I'm going to have him read it. 21 Do you agree that this is the letter or not? 22 MR. WIENBERG: Yes. 23 THE COURT: And if you don't -- 24 MR. HERTZBERG: We do. 25 THE COURT: -- I'll have him read it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 31 1 MR. HERTZBERG: We do. There's no -- 2 MR. WIENBERG: If he says it is, that's the 3 letter, that's fine. 4 MR. HERTZBERG: That's all. 5 But he can't testify as to the substance now. 6 That's our position. 7 THE COURT: So the letter's authenticated. 8 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. I won't have to read 9 it. 10 EXAMINATION 11 BY THE COURT: 12 Q Mr. Leipold, the letter that I have in front of 13 me, which I believe is trying to be authenticated, is not 14 signed. 15 A Yes. There's a reason for that, your Honor. 16 Q Let's hear that. 17 A I asked my -- I sent a copy to Mr. Dandar that was 18 signed via fax. He apparently did not get the third page of 19 it. And I simply asked my secretary to send him the copy 20 again, and she simply took the copy off the computer that 21 was not signed. 22 Q So there is a signed copy to be forthcoming 23 somewhere? 24 A I had thought -- I had thought I had sent it to 25 him. But yes, there is a signed copy in my office. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 32 1 Q Okay. So -- so the copy that I have that is 2 unsigned, you're confident, is the letter that you're -- 3 that you're now authenticating. I don't want you to 4 authenticate something -- 5 A I only -- I only wrote one letter to Mr. Dandar on 6 May 1st, and I feel confident it's that. 7 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Mr. Leipold, have you become acquainted with an 11 individual by the name of Robert Minton? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And can you tell the court -- I don't want any 14 privileged conversation. Just tell the court how you became 15 acquainted with Mr. Minton. 16 A Mr. Minton contacted me sometime around 1997 and 17 he told me that he was, for want of a better word -- 18 essentially he explained to me that he was a -- 19 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor -- 20 A -- very concerned about -- 21 MR. HERTZBERG: -- this is conversations -- 22 A -- problems with Scientology -- 23 MR. HERTZBERG: He's now -- he's now -- 24 THE COURT: This is long before, I take it, 25 that he ever represented him. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 33 1 MR. HERTZBERG: Well, but we don't know -- 2 THE COURT: Is this before you ever represented 3 him? 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, long before I represented 5 him. 6 THE COURT: Overruled. 7 THE WITNESS: And it had nothing to do with the 8 representation. I guarantee that what I just told 9 the court was not attorney-client privilege in 10 California. 11 THE COURT: Was he coming to you in any 12 capacity at that time to ask you to represent him? 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 THE COURT: All right. Overruled. 15 MR. LIROT: Very good. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Mr. Leipold, if you could continue with your 18 description of your acquaintance with Mr. Minton. 19 A Mr. Minton told me that he was -- that he knew my 20 client, Lawrence Wollersheim, and that he knew of an 21 organization that he was running called FACTNet, and that he 22 was interested in helping FACTNet out. He asked me some 23 questions about the Wollersheim action. With the permission 24 of my client, I told him about what the status of the 25 Wollersheim action was. And that was the status of the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 34 1 initial conversations I had with him. 2 Q All right. 3 A And I probably didn't talk to him again for 4 another five, six months. 5 Q Can you tell the court what FACTNet is, to the 6 best of your knowledge? 7 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, objection on 8 relevancy grounds. We're going very far afield. 9 THE COURT: Well, I don't know where we're 10 going to go, so if it's not relevant, I'll throw it 11 out. 12 A FACTNet stands -- let's see if I can remember. I 13 think it stands for something -- Fact stands for Fight 14 Against Coercive Tactics, something like that. It's a 15 anticult group. And it was an organization that my client, 16 Lawrence Wollersheim, was very heavily involved in. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q All right. 19 (A discussion was held off the record.) 20 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, may I make -- 21 THE COURT: You can't hear it when we say 22 something here, can you? 23 THE WITNESS: No. 24 THE COURT: In other words, if we're trying to 25 cut you off because an objection is made, that's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 35 1 part of the problem with the telephone. 2 THE WITNESS: That's fine. I'll -- 3 THE COURT: So -- 4 THE WITNESS: -- wait patiently. 5 THE COURT: So if you'll listen real carefully, 6 if you hear something in the background that sounds 7 like objection, if you'll stop, that would be 8 appreciated. 9 THE WITNESS: All right. 10 (A discussion was held off the record.) 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Mr. Leipold, not asking any privileged 13 information. 14 Did Mr. Minton make any unsolicited offers of 15 donations of funds or tender of funds for use in the 16 litigation involving you and Mr. Wollersheim? 17 A At the time of these conversations? 18 Q At any time. 19 A Well, I -- I don't know if they were unsolicited. 20 You're talking about in the litigation that I was handling? 21 Q Yes, sir. 22 A No. I don't -- 23 Well, no. Huh-uh. 24 Q Did Mr. Minton provide any money to you for that 25 case? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 36 1 A No. 2 Q All right. Has he provided any money for 3 litigation involving the Church of Scientology or any of its 4 affiliates, to your knowledge? 5 A No. 6 Q I'm talking about Mr. Minton providing any money. 7 A Mr. Minton has never given me any money to 8 litigate any case involving the Church of Scientology other 9 than Mr. Minton did become a director of FACTNet. I did 10 defend FACTNet. And I was paid for defending FACTNet. 11 Q All right. Do you know of cases involving 12 Mr. Minton and the Church of Scientology -- again, not 13 asking any privileged information -- but are you aware of 14 cases where Mr. Minton has been named as a party by the 15 Church of Scientology in other litigation? 16 THE COURT: Why do we have to ask this witness 17 that? Is there not some witness to come into court 18 live, where I don't have to worry with -- with cross 19 examination over a telephone? 20 MR. LIROT: Yes. That's -- 21 THE COURT: Then don't ask him that question. 22 MR. LIROT: Very good. 23 THE COURT: He really should be asked about 24 this letter and then we just ought to move on to 25 something else where we have witnesses here in the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 37 1 courtroom. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. Are you aware of Mr. Minton ever 4 creating any documents for -- for any funds he may have 5 provided in any case involving the Church of Scientology 6 regarding a loan or in any way being paid back or working 7 out some particulars regarding the supply of funds in cases 8 involving the Church of Scientology? 9 A I'm going to have to ask you to ask that question 10 over. I missed the first part of it. 11 Q Do you know that Mr. Minton has prepared any 12 documents regarding any funds he may have provided in cases 13 involving the Church of Scientology? 14 A Yeah. I've seen a second affidavit that was filed 15 in, I believe, the McPherson case. 16 Q All right. In any other cases, has he prepared 17 any documents or agreements or any contractual type of -- 18 I'll just say paperwork involving funds he's provided. 19 A No, not that I can think of. 20 Q Does Mr. Minton look to be highly formalistic in 21 the way he provides funds regarding cases involving the 22 Church of Scientology? 23 MR. HERTZBERG: Objection, your Honor. 24 A I'm sorry. 25 THE COURT: Wait. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 38 1 A I don't know. I'm not sure what that means. 2 MR. HERTZBERG: That was my objection. 3 A I -- I'm not sure what it means. I apologize. 4 (Simultaneous speakers.) 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q Has he ever given you a note? 8 A Pardon? 9 Q Have you seen or do you know of any -- I mean, I 10 don't know whether you know of any instances, so if you 11 don't, this question should not even be asked of you. 12 THE COURT: He obviously said it didn't happen 13 in his case. 14 BY THE COURT: 15 Q So are you aware of any other case where 16 Mr. Minton provided funds, other than this case, to 17 litigate, for lack of a better word, against Scientology as 18 a big worldwide organization? 19 A Big worldwide organization? 20 Q Well, that's -- 21 A I know he did find -- he did supply funds 22 specifically to fund the defense of the FactNet case. I do 23 know that. 24 Q Any others? 25 A And -- and I have -- I have heard -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 39 1 Do you want personal knowledge? 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Please. 5 A I've heard that he's -- that he's -- he's provided 6 funds in the McPherson case. 7 MR. HERTZBERG: Objection. 8 A But that's not personal knowledge. 9 MR. HERTZBERG: Hearsay. 10 THE COURT: Don't need to object. We know 11 that. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Has -- has he loaned money to you or your firm? 14 A Yes, he has. 15 Q And can you tell us how much money he has loaned 16 to you or your firm? 17 A I couldn't tell you exactly, but I believe the -- 18 the total amount that he's loaned us is somewhere in the 19 area of around $350,000. 20 Q All right. And what type of documentation would 21 reflect any agreement or payback regarding that loan? 22 A There is a loan agreement. 23 Q All right. And -- 24 A I don't know if the loan agreement covers the 25 entire amount, but there is a loan agreement. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 40 1 Q All right. Is it a standard loan agreement? 2 A You know, I -- I can't quite say what a standard 3 loan agreement is, but there is a loan agreement. 4 Q All right. 5 A I don't think it's anything out of the ordinary. 6 Q All right. Does it require you to pay back the 7 full amount or does it leave some discretion to paying back 8 Mr. Minton? 9 A Discretion. No. I don't think there's any 10 discretion. 11 Q All right. 12 A I haven't seen -- I haven't looked at the loan 13 agreement in probably four years, but I -- I certainly don't 14 believe there's any discretion to pay it back. 15 THE COURT: I don't want any guessing here, 16 so -- 17 THE WITNESS: I'm -- I'm not guessing, your 18 Honor. I haven't seen the loan agreement in four 19 years. But I feel confident that there is -- I have 20 no recollection of there being any discretion 21 involved. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q All right. I'm going to ask one question 24 cautiously. Have -- have any of the conversations that 25 you've had with Ms. Brooks or Ms. Minton -- Mr. Minton -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 41 1 been related to your representation of them in any 2 litigation? 3 A Well, obviously, some of the conversations I have 4 had -- many of the conversations I have had over the years 5 are privileged. However, I think if you're asking about the 6 recent conversations, no. 7 Q And are they parties in the Wollershiem case? 8 A No. 9 Q What was your reaction to their request that it be 10 dismissed? 11 MR. HERTZBERG: Objection, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Overruled. 13 MR. HERTZBERG: This goes into -- 14 A They're not parties to the case. 15 MR. HERTZBERG: This goes into the substance. 16 A I can't have somebody come in and tell me to 17 dismiss the case -- 18 MR. HERTZBERG: This -- 19 A -- for a client. 20 MR. HERTZBERG: -- goes into the substance of 21 this letter, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: The question was, what was his 23 reaction? 24 THE WITNESS: My reaction was no, I can't do 25 that. It's unethical. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 42 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q All right. Would they have any standing to 3 require you to dismiss that case? 4 A Absolutely not. 5 Q All right. And just one question about the loan. 6 Is there any -- is there an interest payment on the loan 7 from Mr. Minton? 8 A Yes, there is. 9 MR. LIROT: All right. Very good. 10 I have no further questions. 11 THE COURT: You may inquire. 12 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I'm not going to -- 13 I want to withhold going into any examination on the 14 substance of the events recited in the letter 15 because I don't want to waive any privilege -- 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 MR. HERTZBERG: -- that might be asserted by 18 counsel for Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton. 19 THE COURT: All right. Counselor, can you hear 20 me? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: If we have a -- we may get back 23 with you regarding the substance of the conversation 24 between me and Ms. Brooks -- you and Ms. Brooks. 25 The problem we have here is Ms. Brooks is not here; Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 43 1 her lawyer is not here. While you have said it is 2 not privileged, they may think differently. If they 3 do, I really need to hear them before we ask you 4 what the substance was. 5 THE WITNESS: That's fine. 6 THE COURT: If I rule that it's not privileged, 7 we'll be calling you back so that you can tell us. 8 If I rule that it is privileged and they wish to 9 uphold the privilege, then we won't be calling you 10 back, most likely. 11 THE WITNESS: That's fine. 12 Your Honor, I am currently in my house, because 13 it's 7:00 on the west coast. 14 THE COURT: We appreciate -- 15 THE WITNESS: I will be in my office later on 16 today. 17 THE COURT: Right. Thank you. 18 THE WITNESS: And Mr. Dandar has my number. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Wait. We have some questions from 22 counsel. 23 And if you'll introduce yourself and tell 24 him -- 25 MR. HERTZBERG: Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 44 1 THE COURT: -- who you represent. 2 CROSS EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 4 Q Mr. Leipold, my name is Michael Hertzberg. 5 A I know you well, Mr. Hertzberg. 6 Q You testified about a loan that you received from 7 Mr. Minton. And I believe that was a loan that was given to 8 you or your law firm in May of 1998, correct? 9 A That sounds about right. 10 Q Right. 11 Now, the purpose of the loan was to enable you to 12 form a new law firm at that time, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And that law firm is Leipold, Donohue and Shipe. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Is that right? That's where you currently 17 practice. 18 A No. 19 Q Does that firm not exist anymore? 20 A I -- under that name it does not exist anymore. 21 Q Well, what is your -- what is your current firm? 22 A Leipold and Shipe. 23 Q All right. And prior to the formation of the firm 24 of Leipold, Donohue and Shipe, you practiced at a firm named 25 Carpenter and Murphy, is that correct? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 45 1 A No. 2 Q What is the name of the firm that you were at? 3 A Hagenbaugh and Murphy. 4 Q I'm sorry. Hagenbaugh. And Murphy? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Now the purpose of the loan from Mr. Minton was to 7 enable you to form a new practice that could concentrate on 8 litigation in opposition to Scientology, isn't that right? 9 A No. 10 Q I -- I have a letter in my hand dated May 28th, 11 1998 on the Higgenbow (phonetic) and Murphy stationery -- 12 A That's Hagenbaugh and Murphy. 13 Q Hagenbaugh. 14 -- with your signature, Daniel A. Leipold, and 15 your signature at the end. And I'm going to read to you 16 from the first paragraph: "Dear Bob, this is re loan to law 17 firm of Leipold, Donohue and Shipe. I appreciate your 18 commitment to me and my partners and your generosity in 19 allowing us to continue our work in opposition to 20 Scientology." 21 Your words. Does that refresh your recollection 22 that -- 23 A Well, it -- 24 Q -- the purpose -- 25 A -- refreshes my recollection, but it isn't the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 46 1 reason we -- we got the loan. Certainly, this allowed us to 2 continue to -- to do litigation, but the purpose of the firm 3 was to do general litigation, including litigation against 4 the Church of Scientology. And it was not solely to fund 5 the firm to do litigation against the Church of Scientology. 6 Q All right. I -- my question, as I recall, was not 7 whether that was the sole purpose. 8 But the purpose -- you will agree with me then 9 that the purpose of the loan -- which was for $180,000, 10 correct? You remember that? 11 A Well, okay. Can you re-ask the question in a more 12 intelligible manner? 13 Q All right. 14 THE COURT: I don't need that, Counselor. 15 THE WITNESS: I apologize. But I don't 16 understand the question. 17 THE COURT: Well, I understand that. I do 18 understand -- 19 THE WITNESS: Rephrase it; I'll answer the 20 question. 21 THE COURT: I do understand that, and I 22 appreciate your appearing by phone, but I'm frankly 23 quite tired of lawyers calling other lawyers names 24 and what have you. 25 THE WITNESS: I didn't call him a name. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 47 1 THE COURT: You said he didn't ask a very 2 intelligent question. 3 THE WITNESS: I -- no, I said unintelligible. 4 THE COURT: I apologize. I thought you said 5 "unintelligent." 6 THE WITNESS: No, no, no, no. Unintelligible. 7 THE COURT: Intelligible. All right. 8 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 9 Q At the time you wrote this letter to Mr. Minton 10 thanking him for his agreement to loan the money, you were 11 entering into an agreement to receive $180,000 from 12 Mr. Minton, correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And it was to be an initial payment of 80,000, 15 correct? 16 A I'm not sure. 17 Q All right. And in this letter, you went on to 18 discuss with Mr. Minton the fact that it was appreciated 19 that this loan was coming at that particular time, because 20 there was some tension in your -- in your present firm, that 21 Higgenbaugh and Murphy firm, about the direction that you 22 and your new partners were going to take with respect to the 23 focus of your practice, isn't that right? 24 THE COURT: How's come -- 25 I got a question. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 48 1 A Well, gee -- 2 THE COURT: Wait a second, sir. Wait a second. 3 How's come it is that you're asking questions 4 here about conversations between him and Mr. Minton? 5 You just went bananas about a privilege. I don't 6 want you asking questions about that either. 7 Is this a letter between him and Mr. Minton? 8 MR. HERTZBERG: Well, this is in the time 9 period, your Honor -- 10 THE COURT: Is this a communication? 11 MR. HERTZBERG: It is -- it is a letter -- it 12 is. But your Honor allowed -- allowed him to talk 13 about the fact that he got this loan. And I -- if 14 that came in -- I mean, I made an objection 15 generally to this line. But if that came in, I have 16 to be able to ask him about it, it seems to me. 17 THE COURT: All right. Were you representing 18 Mr. Minton at this time? 19 THE WITNESS: At what time? 20 THE COURT: At the time of the letter. 21 Read the date of the letter. 22 MR. HERTZBERG: May 28th, 1998. 23 THE COURT: May 28th. 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25 THE COURT: 1998. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 49 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 3 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 4 Q Isn't it a fact, sir, that your partners at the 5 Higgenbow and Murphy firm -- 6 A Hagenbaugh and Murphy. 7 Q Hagenbow - Hagenbaum (phonetic) -- 8 A Hagenbaugh. 9 Q Well -- 10 THE COURT: Hagenbaugh. 11 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 12 Q -- isn't it a fact, sir, that your partners at the 13 Hagenbow and Murphy firm were concerned that you and several 14 of your other partners were focusing too much on Scientology 15 litigation? 16 A I wouldn't phrase it that way. I think that there 17 was some concern at my firm that Scientology overlitigates 18 cases and uses abusive litigation tactics. 19 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I move to strike as 20 nonresponsive. 21 A And the concern -- 22 THE COURT: You asked the question. 23 A -- was that this would affect the overall 24 performance of the firm. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 50 1 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 2 Q All right. 3 A These abusive tactics. 4 Q All right. Well, you nonetheless, then, entered 5 into a new partnership with -- with other partners, and you 6 used the funds that Mr. Minton provided you to begin that 7 firm, correct? 8 A Could you repeat the question? 9 Q You nonetheless entered into your new partnership 10 and used the funds provided by Mr. Minton in that loan to 11 conduct the work of the partnership, correct? 12 A Certainly. 13 Q All right. And the work of the partnership 14 involved, in the ensuing years, several matters in court 15 where either Scientology entities or individual 16 Scientologists were parties, correct? 17 A It included that, yes. 18 Q And in fact, you then later got a significant 19 further amount of money from Mr. Minton, didn't you? 20 A Yes. 21 Q In excess of $450,000, sir? 22 A No. 23 Q All right. How much more money would you estimate 24 that you got from Mr. Minton? 25 A Well, it depends on what you mean by got. Do you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 51 1 mean loaned or do you mean received? 2 Q I will ask both parts. 3 First of all, how much further money did 4 Mr. Minton loan you beyond the initial $180,000? 5 A I think probably roughly the total amount, 6 including that $180,000, would be around 360. 7 Q Okay. And beyond the loans, did he not furnish 8 you with further funds? 9 A Well, he paid me for work done. 10 Q Right. And he paid you for work done in those 11 cases involving Scientology entities and individuals, 12 correct? 13 A Well, as far as I knew, those were the only people 14 that were harassing him legally -- 15 Q You know -- 16 A -- but yes. 17 Q -- that question just asked for a yes or no 18 answer. 19 A Well, no, it didn't, but that's okay. 20 Q And you have testified that in those cases -- 21 By the way, have you paid back any portion of the 22 money that was loaned to you by Mr. Minton up to now? 23 A Yes. 24 Q A very inconsequential portion of that amount. 25 THE COURT: Really, Counselor. I'm just not Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 52 1 going to let you go there. We're here today to do a 2 very limited thing. They put this guy on to see 3 whether or not he was loaned any money. He said he 4 was. If you dispute that, get into it. If you 5 don't dispute that, what all this is about, I have 6 no idea, but I want it ended pretty quick. 7 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 8 Q Now, in those cases we just alluded to -- 9 A I'm sorry. You're going have to talk more 10 directly into the phone. 11 Q In the cases you just alluded to -- 12 A I didn't allude to any cases. 13 Q We're talking generally about Scientology cases. 14 A All right. 15 Q You knew Stacy Brooks, Vaughn Young and Jesse 16 Prince as affiants, correct? 17 A I didn't understand the last part of what you 18 said. 19 Q You used those witnesses' affidavits -- 20 THE COURT: He already said he did. 21 MR. DANDAR: Judge, he needs to get closer and 22 not move around too much. 23 THE COURT: We don't need to hear questions 24 that were already asked and agreed to. He said 25 that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 53 1 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 2 Q Now, Mr. Minton also lent a large amount of money 3 to Mr. Wollersheim, did he not? 4 A Mr. Minton did what? 5 Q He lent a rather significant amount of money to 6 Larry Wollersheim, did he not? 7 A I think he lent some money to FACTNet. 8 Q Didn't he also lend a large amount of money to 9 Mr. Larry Wollersheim, your client in the California action? 10 A I'm not sure that he did. 11 Q Are you aware of the fact, sir, that Mr. Minton 12 has made a UCC filing with a lien against any proceeds that 13 would be recovered by Mr. Wollersheim, your client in the 14 Los Angeles case? 15 A Yes. But I'm not sure that that's the secure loan 16 to Wollersheim. 17 Q But you are aware that there is such a lien. 18 A Oh, yes. 19 Q And you had an involvement -- you've had 20 involvement in the case here in Florida, have you not, in 21 various capacities? 22 THE COURT: What -- we're going to have to 23 stop. What is it you're trying to accomplish by -- 24 A What cases? 25 THE COURT: Excuse me. Stop, if you will. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 54 1 What is it you're trying to accomplish? They 2 put this man on -- I don't know what's in the letter 3 because I haven't had a chance to read it -- to say 4 that Mr. Minton loaned them some money. I think he 5 was trying to establish that he loaned him some 6 money without documents. That failed. So we're 7 down to, he loaned them some money. 8 Now, do you dispute that? And if you dispute 9 they loaned him some money -- 10 MR. HERTZBERG: No, I don't. 11 THE COURT: -- get into that. 12 MR. HERTZBERG: No. 13 THE COURT: But otherwise, you are gone well 14 beyond the purpose of this hearing. And I can't 15 wait for people to object, because this hearing is 16 before me, and we're not going there. I don't care 17 about all this. 18 MR. HERTZBERG: What I want to show now -- I 19 want to -- 20 THE COURT: What is it you're trying to show? 21 That he's lying about giving money? 22 MR. HERTZBERG: No. No. I'm in a new area 23 now, Judge Schaeffer. 24 THE COURT: Well, what about? 25 MR. HERTZBERG: I want to show -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 55 1 THE COURT: Then you call him in your case. 2 You're well beyond the scope. It's just that 3 simple. We're not going to have it. This is not 4 going to be an hour and a half on a witness that has 5 testified he got some money from Mr. Minton. 6 MR. HERTZBERG: I -- let me just make a 7 proffer. 8 THE COURT: No. We're not going to make a 9 proffer. You're going to call him in your case. 10 It's just that simple. You're well beyond the 11 scope. I can't wait around for counsel to object. 12 You're taking a lot of my time. I've got four days 13 to do this and I plan to get it done. 14 MR. HERTZBERG: All right, Judge Schaeffer. I 15 will reserve the right. 16 THE COURT: To call him in your case. 17 MR. HERTZBERG: In my case. And also to 18 further -- after the privilege issue is sorted out, 19 I have some very specific questions to ask him, if 20 he's allowed to -- 21 THE COURT: I don't need to hear this and he 22 doesn't need to hear it. Do you have any more 23 questions about the loan? 24 MR. HERTZBERG: No, I don't. 25 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, sir. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 56 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. I 2 appreciate it. 3 THE COURT: Now you may call your next witness. 4 This letter, I presume, is authenticated. 5 We'll deal with it later. 6 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 7 Judge, I'd like to call Kennan Dandar. 8 THE COURT: And Counselor, maybe you don't care 9 how long this takes, but I do. There's no jury 10 here. There is no jury here. There's no reason for 11 you not to object to things that are beyond the 12 scope, repetitive, asked and answered and on and on. 13 MR. HERTZBERG: Judge, I -- 14 THE COURT: You're not going to offend me by 15 your objections. 16 I can't, quite frankly, imagine that we're 17 going to go on and on and on and on and on, like 18 what happened up in Clearwater, because I'm not 19 going to have it, and I'm going to expect you to do 20 some objecting here, unless you just curiously like 21 to hear the same thing four or five times. 22 MR. HERTZBERG: No, Judge. Please -- please 23 don't let my politeness be perceived as any failure 24 to object. 25 THE COURT: Well, it is, and I saw it over and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 57 1 over and over in Clearwater, and I thought perhaps 2 you were being polite. You don't need to be polite 3 to me. I'm not going to be polite to you, beyond 4 what's required. 5 I want this chase to proceed. I want us to get 6 done with these witnesses. 7 MR. HERTZBERG: Very good, your Honor. 8 _______________________________________ 9 KENNAN DANDAR, 10 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 11 and testified as follows: 12 THE COURT: You may proceed. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Please state your name, and spell your last name 15 for the record, sir. 16 A Kennan, K-e-n-n-a-n, Dandar, D-a-n-d-a-r. 17 Q And can you -- 18 THE COURT: Let me -- let me ask you this. You 19 have, still, cross examination of what they had put 20 him on for in their case. You want to put him on 21 and not only cross examine him about that but 22 actually go ahead, since they don't have their next 23 witness here until the afternoon, I take it? 24 MR. FUGATE: Judge, as I understand what 25 Mr. McGowan said, he would have her here in the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 58 1 afternoon. 2 THE COURT: So the answer to my question is 3 that's right -- 4 MR. FUGATE: That's right. 5 THE COURT: -- you have no witness -- 6 Thank you. 7 Then if you would like to put him on out of 8 order, since we have -- it's 10:30. I have no 9 objection, if they don't have any objection, to them 10 calling him as if, when you rested, they would call 11 him. 12 Is that okay? 13 MR. LIROT: I think that's an efficient way to 14 get it done, Judge. 15 THE COURT: If you want to. 16 MR. WIENBERG: That's fine with us. 17 THE COURT: Does that make sense? 18 MR. WIENBERG: It makes sense. 19 THE COURT: I mean, if you're ready to do that. 20 MR. LIROT: I'm ready, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Let's just go ahead and assume that 22 part of this is cross examination and part of this 23 is your case and you call him as your witness. 24 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. And I'll move 25 expeditiously. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 59 1 THE COURT: Well, I suppose this is a very 2 important part of your case. But you -- you are 3 either going to be confined to the cross or you're 4 not. And I think now what we realize is you can go 5 ahead beyond the scope of that redirect and -- as if 6 you were putting him on for whatever purpose you 7 wanted to put him on related to this proceeding. 8 MR. LIROT: Excellent. Thank you, Judge. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Mr. Dandar, you came at some point to represent 11 the estate of Lisa McPherson, did you not? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q And can you tell the court how that evolved? 14 A That evolved when I received a phone call from 15 the -- Ann Carlson, to call her. And I did. And she told 16 me about the Lisa McPherson death; and if I would come to 17 Dallas, Texas and meet with her and her sisters to talk 18 about it. And I said, "Sure. I'm on my way --" I happened 19 to be on my way to California the following week -- I think 20 it was the following week to take a deposition in San Diego 21 with a -- a layover in Dallas. 22 I got there, I met Dell Liebreich, I met Ann 23 Carlson. I extended my layover. I drove over and met Fanny 24 McPherson. I stayed at her house for three or four hours, 25 talking with her, while she was on oxygen, and had her sign Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 60 1 a retainer agreement. And Dell Liebreich signed the 2 retainer agreement. And then I went on to San Diego. 3 Q Was your discussion with Fanny McPherson relative 4 to your representation of the estate in this matter? 5 A Yes, it was. We talked -- 6 THE COURT: The estate? Maybe she knew she was 7 dying. Is that -- 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: She was on Hospice care and she 11 in fact died five days later. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q And after that, did you file a complaint in this 14 action? 15 A Yes. When I got back, we prepared the estate 16 papers for Lisa McPherson and Federal Expressed them over 17 and they came back signed. And the ones that needed to be 18 notarized were notarized; the ones that just had a signature 19 page of Fanny McPherson and Dell Liebreich were properly 20 filled out. 21 We filed it with the probate court, got letters of 22 administration, and then in February, we filed the wrongful 23 death suit. 24 Q Okay. Now, at the time you filed the original 25 complaint in this action, had you done any extensive Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 61 1 discovery or presuit investigation about the Church of 2 Scientology or any of the other issues that later arose in 3 the case? 4 A No. I didn't know anything about the Church of 5 Scientology. You know, I knew they were located in the 6 Ft. Harrison Hotel in downtown Clearwater; I knew they had 7 naval -- blue naval uniforms; they walked between the 8 buildings, up and down the street, and that's it. And they 9 had a sprinkle of some Hollywood stars. 10 Q All right. Did -- not to ask any privileged 11 questions, but did Fanny McPherson or anybody that you spoke 12 to in that presuit discussion -- did they know anything 13 about the Church of Scientology? 14 A Oh, they did. Fanny McPherson called them a cult. 15 Fanny McPherson was extremely upset that they had killed her 16 daughter. Her surviving child. And she wanted me and made 17 me promise to pursue them and expose them for what they did 18 to Lisa McPherson and to bring all responsible parties into 19 court. 20 Q All right. Did they know anything, actually, 21 about the inner workings of the church? 22 A No. 23 Q All right. And at that point in time, did you 24 know Robert Minton? 25 A No. Not at all. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 62 1 Q So you filed the original complaint, and then 2 after that, you engaged in discovery. 3 A Well, I filed the original complaint, and I got 4 bombarded with -- people called me up, wanted -- they found 5 out about it -- and people claiming to be former 6 Scientologists and people being critics of Scientology. And 7 then I just conducted discovery. 8 Q All right. And did those telephone calls guide 9 you in any way in any of the questions or the way you framed 10 your discovery requests? 11 A Well, those -- well, it did help with discovery, 12 but it also led me to meet Vaughn Young and his wife at that 13 time, Stacy Young, who is now Stacy Brooks. And I flew to 14 Seattle and met with them to discuss what this was all 15 about, Scientology. 16 Q Can you tell the court who Vaughn Young and Stacy 17 Brooks were, to your knowledge, at that point in time? 18 A Well, when I met them, I got a history on both of 19 them. Both Vaughn and Stacy worked for OSA. At the time it 20 was called the guardian's office. It was the legal/dirty 21 tricks, undercover work -- 22 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm just saying what they told 25 me. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 63 1 THE COURT: Well, that is not what they called 2 it, so -- OSA is not called "dirty tricks," I don't 3 suppose. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, he told me what they -- 5 what they did. 6 THE COURT: Well, that's -- 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 MR. WIENBERG: Well, then also objection to 9 hear- -- at some point -- I know that this isn't a 10 trial, but at some point I'm objecting to hearsay 11 too. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Just -- who did you understand Vaughn Young and 15 Stacy Brooks to be at that point in time? 16 A Well, Vaughn Young was the public relations person 17 for the mother church, as far as I can remember now. 18 EXAMINATION 19 BY THE COURT: 20 Q At the time you -- 21 I'm sorry, Mr. Dandar -- 22 A No. 23 Q At the time you talked to him, he was that? 24 A No. He had been out of -- as a member of the 25 Church of Scientology for quite some time. And I couldn't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 64 1 possibly tell you when that was. Stacy Brooks, his wife, 2 was also out of the Church of Scientology at that time. 3 And they just started to educate me immediately 4 about the Church of Scientology. They started to tell me 5 the structure of the hierarchy, who controls it, who has the 6 power to do things. And also, they had known somehow about 7 the death of Lisa McPherson, so they started to tell me 8 about what possibly she had -- may have been going through 9 that led to her death. Because Stacy Brooks had personal 10 knowledge of what is known as the introspection rundown. 11 She has been involved with people who were psychotic and she 12 was there taking care of them, to the extent possible, as 13 part of the introspection rundown. 14 Q She was explaining that procedure to you at that 15 time? 16 A She was -- yeah. You know, this is like all new 17 to me. And so I just -- 18 But the interesting part about it is that Stacy 19 Brooks really didn't want to be involved at all in the case. 20 She said she was burned out on being involved in litigation. 21 But Vaughn Young, who is a very intelligent individual, 22 highly educated -- I'm going to say he has a PhD, but right 23 now I can't remember. I think when he joined the Church of 24 Scientology he was going for his PhD -- and he just had a 25 wealth of information. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 65 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. You state that it -- you believed 4 Stacy Young to be burned out -- Stacy Brooks, I'm sorry -- 5 to be burned out. Were you aware of her participation in 6 other litigation involving the Church of Scientology? 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I know you all are 8 going to just hate me, but I'm trying to learn as 9 much about what's happening here so I can better 10 understand things. 11 EXAMINATION 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q You said Vaughn Young -- did it used to be Stacy 14 Young because they were married? 15 A Yes. 16 Q They divorced? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And so she's taken back her maiden name? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. So Stacy Young and Stacy Brooks are really 21 one and the same people. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Good. 24 A Yes. 25 THE COURT: All right. I'm learning something. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 66 1 A So -- I believe that was sometime in -- I'm going 2 to guess -- March of '97; about two months after I filed the 3 suit or thereabouts, give or take. And then I met them 4 again in the summer of '97. This is all before I ever heard 5 the name of Robert Minton. 6 But it turns out, when I finally -- 7 Well, I'm just rambling on. I'll stop. 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Well, okay. In December of '97, you met with them 11 again. And can you tell the court how that impacted the 12 progress of this action? 13 A Well, what had -- what had been going on is that I 14 had my original complaint that I filed, which I filed like a 15 normal wrongful death complaint because all I knew is what I 16 read in the papers and what I saw on Joan Wood's interview 17 on TV, and I didn't know anything about the Church of 18 Scientology whatsoever. 19 And over those months that I first contacted 20 Vaughn Young and Stacy, they -- Vaughn Young was 21 continuously giving me information, trying to educate me on 22 the practices of the Church of Scientology, their history, 23 their criminal history in breaking into the FBI building and 24 the state department -- 25 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, your Honor. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 67 1 A -- which he was intimately -- 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 A -- involved with -- 4 MR. WIENBERG: Your Honor, my real objection is 5 this isn't really a question and answer; it's just 6 a -- 7 THE COURT: I agree with you. 8 MR. LIROT: I'll tighten it up, Judge. 9 THE COURT: You need to answer, and then you 10 need to explain if you need to. And you may do 11 that. But you, I'm going to tell the same thing as 12 I mentioned to previous counsel. This is a hearing 13 to determine whether or not there is a reason to 14 dismiss the complaint; this is a reason to determine 15 whether or not there has been a fraud on the court 16 therefore; and whether or not this lawyer committed 17 acts of perjury, fraud and what have you that would 18 allow me or require me or have me exercise my 19 discretion in such a fashion to dismiss him from the 20 case regarding the wrongful death. That's what this 21 is about. 22 MR. LIROT: Understood. 23 THE COURT: This is not about the whole history 24 of the case; this is not why the lawsuit was filed 25 the way it is. That has nothing to do with it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 68 1 There are issues here -- seems like there were 2 three. They identified the three yesterday. I 3 think they're right. I think those are the issues. 4 The question is, what about those issues; what do we 5 need to know about those issues? 6 And obviously, if you have to go somewhere else 7 to have me understand some of this, I do understand 8 that and that's permissible. 9 Now we're saying, well, he filed the first 10 complaint and how it went on -- you know, that's not 11 important or relevant, and I'm not -- you know, as I 12 said, my time's limited. 13 MR. LIROT: I understand your time is limited, 14 Judge. And if I could just seek some guidance from 15 the court, it was my understanding that opposing 16 counsel made accusations to the effect that the 17 complaint was amended to try to bring down the 18 church or something along those lines, and I -- 19 THE COURT: Okay. All right. I see where 20 you're -- what you're saying. Yes, that was, and 21 yes, I said that could be important, so -- 22 MR. WIENBERG: But that wasn't -- the main 23 complaint was in 1999, but -- 24 THE COURT: Well, I think what he's suggesting 25 is he needs to get there, so -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 69 1 MR. WIENBERG: Go ahead. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. WIENBERG: I just ask for questions and 4 answers. 5 THE WITNESS: Judge, if you want, just let me 6 tell you what happened and -- 7 THE COURT: Yeah. Maybe we could tell us how 8 we got up to the fifth complaint -- I mean, some of 9 it, I know. 10 MR. LIROT: Could we expedite it with a 11 narrative? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. LIROT: It's -- 14 THE WITNESS: I'll be quick. 15 THE COURT: I'm going to let him expedite this 16 with a narrative as to how we got to the present 17 complaint without going into the legalistics of it. 18 A Okay. So Vaughn Young was helping me draft the 19 allegations of the complaint that concerned not the legal 20 requirements of a complaint, but the factual basis of the 21 complaint. Stacy Brooks, or Stacy Young at the time -- she 22 was, you know, just there. She would talk to me once in a 23 great while. But she would consult and -- if I asked her a 24 question. But she really -- again, it was Vaughn Young that 25 spent most of the time. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 70 1 So when I got his drafts in the summer of '97, I 2 went back up there, got educated some more on Scientology 3 hierarchy, Scientology introspection rundown. 4 And the big question in my mind was, why would 5 this woman die like this? And he started to fill me in. 6 And I don't want to say what he said, because that's 7 privileged. 8 So -- and again, at this time, I had never met or 9 heard of Robert Minton. And the only defendant at that 10 time, in the summer of '97, was the corporate defendant. I 11 had no knowledge -- well, I may have started acquiring 12 knowledge of the individuals through discovery -- 13 THE COURT: I'm looking at your first 14 complaint. It does have defendant, Church of 15 Scientology d/b/a Church of Scientology Flag Service 16 Organization, Inc. 17 THE WITNESS: Right. That's as much as I knew. 18 I mean, I didn't know -- 19 A So anyway, in reference to Robert Minton, I 20 received an interrogatory from the Church of Scientology and 21 said, "Has Robert Minton given you any money? If so, how 22 much?" And this is while we were over in Tampa. 23 And so I went on the Internet. And I was a novice 24 at the Internet. And I said, "Who in the world is Robert 25 Minton and why do they think --" and I think they even had Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 71 1 in the interrogatory a hundred thousand dollars. I think. 2 I'm not sure. The record will speak for itself. I said, 3 "Who's Robert Minton? Why does the Church of Scientology 4 think they -- he has given me any money?" Because up until 5 that time, I heard accusations from the church that the 6 Clearwater Police Department gave you money; the German 7 government gave you money -- 8 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 MR. WIENBERG: Well, I don't know what the 11 question is. 12 MR. LIROT: It's a narrative to expedite the 13 creation of the fifth amended complaint. 14 A So I got on the Internet, said, "Who's Robert 15 Minton?" And the next thing, within a few days, Robert 16 Minton -- a person calls me up and says, "I'm Robert 17 Minton." I said, "Well, you know, why do they think you 18 gave me money?" And he told me Elliott Abelson, the general 19 counsel for the Church of Scientology in California, 20 their -- you know, their main general counsel, Elliott 21 Abelson, had a telephone call with Robert Minton either in 22 September or August of '97, accusing him of funding. And I 23 have -- I even have a letter from Elliott Abelson to Robert 24 Minton somewhere -- accusing him of funding people who want 25 to sue the Church of Scientology, and warning him that the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 72 1 Church of Scientology would sue him for this and demand 2 great damages. 3 And he laughed that off, and he said, "I'd like to 4 send you some money. Since they think it's such a terrible 5 idea, it must be a good idea. So I'll send you some money." 6 And I said, "Well, you know, I don't know who you are." He 7 said, "Well, you met me before. Not really, but I was in a 8 room in Clearwater at a motel during a picket or a 9 demonstration in March of '97, and you were sitting in the 10 room. I brought over bagels and coffee for Larry 11 Wollersheim." 'Cause I met him for the first time, and I 12 thought he was a wealth of information as well. And he was 13 the first person I contacted that was a wealth of 14 information. 15 And he -- Robert Minton told me, "I was sitting in 16 the motel room. I'm the guy that didn't say a word." And I 17 remember that. There was a guy in there that just sat there 18 and didn't say anything. Everyone else was talking to me 19 about the Church of Scientology. 20 So I said. "Fine. Before you send me any money, 21 let me call up the Florida Bar." Because no one -- in '97, 22 I'd been practicing law now since '79; no one's ever offered 23 to send me money on a case. Except my clients. 24 So I called up the Florida Bar. I said, "I have a 25 third party that wants to send me money. He's not my Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 73 1 client. What do I do?" 2 THE COURT: Who did you call? Was it -- was it 3 the hot line? 4 THE WITNESS: The hot line. The hot line. 5 A And they said, "As long as your client consents; 6 as long as there's no confidential information divulged 7 without your client's consent; and as long as he doesn't 8 control the litigation, you can do whatever you want to, if 9 he wants to send you money." 10 So I put that in the letter to Robert Minton later 11 on. 12 First he sent me the money. It was a hundred 13 thousand dollars. And he sent me a note, which is in the 14 exhibits filed with Judge Baird, and said, you know, "Here's 15 the money." 16 THE COURT: I think your letter -- I don't know 17 if your letter's in, but I know I saw some 18 documentation that was in before Judge Baird, and I 19 assume it's included. 20 THE WITNESS: I always called that letter a -- 21 ripped off in a Kleenex box, and that was -- 22 THE COURT: Oh, yeah. 23 THE WITNESS: -- incorrect. 24 THE COURT: I had that question. What is that? 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 74 1 THE COURT: -- that? I didn't see any Kleenex 2 box on the -- 3 THE WITNESS: What it is -- 4 THE COURT: -- box. 5 THE WITNESS: -- is the -- 6 Did we bring the original? No. 7 What it is is, it's a -- it's a card that has 8 printed on the top of it, "Robert Minton." And he 9 tore it. So it was torn. And I don't know why it 10 was torn. But it's all hand -- handwriting of his 11 on the front and then on the back. So it comes out 12 in the exhibit as two pages. 13 THE COURT: Okay. So when you speak of the 14 Kleenex box, that copy is what you're referring to. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: That's what was written on the 17 Kleenex box or on a -- a piece of cardboard. 18 THE WITNESS: It's a card. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: Some kind of card or stationery 21 of some type. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 A So he said, "I'm going to send you a check for a 24 hundred thousand dollars, just to let you know that I'm for 25 real." And I thought I was being set up right then and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 75 1 there. I thought, "No one sends a check out for a hundred 2 thousand dollars." 3 So he sends the check. I deposit the check, I 4 wait, and it clears. And I said, "Well, this man's for 5 real." 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q I guess I'll ask one question. Did you deposit 8 the check? 9 A Because I -- first time I ever heard of this and 10 heard of him, I deposited the check in my trust account. 11 And I went on litigating the case. By that time, 12 I had a great amount of money of my own already invested in 13 the case, 'cause I -- I was paying Vaughn Young; I was 14 hiring physicians to look at the case, to see why Lisa 15 McPherson died. 16 Did I answer all that? What was the question? 17 THE COURT: Why did you -- 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Why did you deposit it in your trust account? 20 A Oh. 21 That's why I deposited it in my trust account. 22 Because I didn't know who this guy was and I wanted to make 23 sure that was the right place to put it. It was made 24 payable to Dandar and Dandar, and my trust account is the 25 only account that we use to keep track of costs for cases on Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 76 1 each case. So it goes into the trust account. There's a 2 ledger. From the ledger, it goes into the computer billing 3 program. 4 Q So if the money was shady, you could send him back 5 a trust check. 6 A Shady? 7 Q Or if you had any concerns about the money. 8 A Well, if I had any concerns -- 9 Q Or the manner in which it was tendered. 10 A Yeah. I could send it back if something strange 11 happened. 12 Q So Mr. Minton provided that money and you called 13 the Florida Bar. Please continue for the court. 14 A All right. So after I called the Florida Bar, 15 after I had his money, I decided to send him a letter 16 outlining the rules that the Florida Bar quoted to me over 17 the ethics hot line, telling him the specifics; tell him I 18 had already called my client, who said she thought that was 19 wonderful that somebody was going to send me money. Because 20 it -- our arrangement was that I had to advance all the 21 money and not to look at them in the event I lost. All the 22 money was my responsibility. 23 THE COURT: Where is that letter? Did that 24 ever get into evidence -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 77 1 THE COURT: -- up in Clearwater? 2 MR. LIROT: That was introduced -- 3 THE COURT: Was that part of the exhibits -- 4 MR. LIROT: It was introduced before Judge 5 Baird. 6 THE COURT: Okay. I thought it had, but I'm 7 not sure. 8 THE WITNESS: It's an October 6th, '97 letter, 9 I believe. 10 THE COURT: Do you remember what number it was? 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm trying to find it right 12 now. 13 MR. WIENBERG: This is the letter to 14 Ms. Liebreich. Is that what you're -- 15 THE COURT: Basically stating he'll advance the 16 costs? 17 THE WITNESS: That's another letter. This is 18 the letter to Robert Minton -- 19 MR. WIENBERG: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: -- October, '97. 21 THE COURT: Oh. 22 THE WITNESS: There's a letter to Ms. Liebreich 23 that has nothing to do with Robert Minton; that just 24 confirms my first meeting with Dell Liebreich and 25 Fanny McPherson, where I -- I had them sign a form Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 78 1 contingency fee agreement, which says, "You're going 2 to pay the costs, win or lose --" 3 THE COURT: Did you try to get that in at the 4 hearing and you didn't get it in? 5 THE WITNESS: I defer to Mr. Lirot. I think 6 you might be right about that. 7 MR. FUGATE: Exhibit 9 is the letter you asked 8 about, Judge -- 9 THE COURT: Okay. Thanks. 10 MR. FUGATE: -- that went to Mr. Minton. 11 THE COURT: I seem to have -- 12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, you want me to look for it? 13 THE COURT: No. I see. I've got -- I've got 14 two books. So let me go to 9 here. 15 Okay. I've got it. And I do remember seeing 16 it. Thanks. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. That's the letter to 18 Mr. Minton. 19 THE COURT: Right. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. And that spells out the 21 particular Florida Bar rules that I was quoted and 22 instructed on how to handle this. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Did the Florida Bar tell you you had to write that 25 type of letter every time that you received money? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 79 1 A No. No. They just told me that it would be 2 better to put it in writing to make sure he understood that 3 he had no control and he wasn't getting any confidential 4 information unless my client agreed he could have 5 confidential information. 6 Q All right. Putting Mr. Minton aside for a moment, 7 could you continue your narrative to the court about your 8 progress of the complaint, and how we got to the fifth 9 amended complaint? 10 A All right. So as the -- more discovery took 11 place, I discovered that there were individuals who were 12 highly involved in the care and treatment of Lisa McPherson, 13 people who were in their medical liaison office, including 14 Janis Johnson and Mr. Houghton. Mr. Houghton, at that time, 15 was an unlicensed dentist. Well, at the time of Lisa 16 McPherson's stay at the hotel. 17 And then I found out about Alain Karduzinski. And 18 the file will reflect this, not my brain, but I can't 19 remember when I tried to take depositions. 20 But I also found out about Lisa McPherson's 21 employer, Bennetta Slaughter, causing her great emotional 22 distress during 1995. And I knew Lisa McPherson was 23 psychotic; she took her clothes off in the middle of the 24 street. So I also added her on. 25 And I added -- as a defendant. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 80 1 And I added Karduzinski, Janis Johnson and David 2 Houghton as defendants, and I also added Bennetta 3 Slaughter's company, AMC Publishing Company, where Lisa 4 McPherson worked. And this was because of all the 5 information I was gathering. 6 And if I had taken some depositions up to that 7 point in time, I really can't tell you that. 8 Q Did you know Bennetta Slaughter to have an 9 affiliation with the Church of Scientology in some way? 10 A Well, I knew that she and her husband were, like 11 Lisa McPherson, public members of the Church of Scientology. 12 I knew that the business was operated under Scientology 13 technology, known -- and it was also a member of the World 14 Institute of Scientology Enterprises with the acronym of 15 WISE. And I gathered all this information from January of 16 '97 until I filed the first amended complaint. 17 And the file will reflect when I filed the first 18 amended complaint. I can't remember. 19 THE COURT: The -- I'm looking at it myself, so 20 I have it. I'll make the record clear. It doesn't 21 have a date of filing, but it does have a date of 22 service of 4th of December, 1997, being delivered to 23 Morris Weinberg -- 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25 THE COURT: -- and Laura Vaughn. Laura Vaughn? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 81 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Laura Vaughn. 2 MR. FUGATE: That's right. 3 THE COURT: Okay. And that is styled First 4 Amended Complaint, Demand for Trial by Jury. And at 5 this time, the defendants -- apparently the 6 plaintiffs stayed the same -- are Church of 7 Scientology Flag Service Organization, Inc., Benetta 8 Slaughter, semicolon, Produx -- Prodex, Inc., a 9 Florida corporation, doing business as AMC 10 Publishing Company; Janis Johnson, MD; David 11 Minkoff, MD; Alain Karduzinski and David Houghton, 12 DDS. That's the style. And that's the date that it 13 was served. 14 THE WITNESS: Right. 15 THE COURT: That's the first amended complaint. 16 THE WITNESS: I forgot about David Minkoff, MD. 17 That's right. Okay. 18 A None of this had to do with Robert Minton. This 19 had to do with my own investigation. All my own 20 information-gathering, speaking with Vaughn Young -- 21 THE COURT: Okay. Let me -- 22 A -- putting this all together. 23 THE COURT: Let me -- if you will, let me read 24 this, because I've only ever read the fifth amended 25 complaint. And this could be important. And I know Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 82 1 this is a, you know, problem for you guys, that -- 2 but I can't keep up with this. I've got to do it 3 slow. So let me read this. 4 Plus, it seems like a good time for a break. 5 MR. LIROT: I was going to say, I've had a lot 6 of coffee. If you'd like to read it during a 7 break -- 8 THE COURT: All right. Let's do it. Let's 9 take a 20-minute break -- or -- no, 15 to 20. Watch 10 for me. I'll wait for you to come back. I'm going 11 to try to read all of these complaints. 12 MR. FUGATE: And I've got copies of the two 13 transcripts, which I'll give to Mr. Lirot to look 14 at. 15 THE COURT: Wonderful. 16 (A recess was taken.) 17 THE COURT: Okay. I didn't have a chance -- I 18 had a couple calls come in. I read most of what -- 19 the first amended complaint. Is that the one we're 20 on? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: I did not have a chance to read the 23 other, so -- 24 I forgot. I -- please remind me I've got a 25 conference call at noon on a committee that I chair. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 83 1 So I've got to be on the call. So we're going to 2 have to take a break at noon. 3 MR. LIROT: Very good. 4 THE COURT: Okay. And then what we're going to 5 do is interrupt, and let's take Ms. Brooks, so 6 that -- she probably is needing to tend to her 7 business, so -- 8 MR. LIROT: As you wish, Judge. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Mr. Dandar, before the break we were talking about 12 the progression and metamorphosis of what ultimately became 13 the fifth amended complaint in this action. I think we were 14 up to the first amended complaint. And do you recall about 15 what date you filed that? 16 THE COURT: I think I just told you that it was 17 dated the 4th of December of 1997. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good. Thank you. 19 THE COURT: That's the date of service. So I 20 can only presume it was filed around the same time. 21 THE WITNESS: Right. And that was just before 22 the wrongful death statute of limitations of two 23 years. So prior to that, I was worried about, if I 24 needed to add on anyone else, I needed to do it at 25 that time, because the two-year statute was Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 84 1 approaching. 2 EXAMINATION 3 BY THE COURT: 4 Q Had you ever sat down and discussed anything with 5 Mr. Minton before you filed that? 6 A Not about this case, no. 7 Q No, I mean, had you had any conversations with 8 Mr. Minton where you sat down in a room and discussed this 9 case with him -- 10 A No. 11 Q -- before this date. 12 A No. No. 13 Q Okay. 14 A No. 15 Q You had obviously written a letter, I think, that 16 came before it; he sent you the hundred thousand -- 17 A I wrote that letter, that's right. 18 Q And did you have any face-to-face sit-down with 19 him before that? 20 A No, no. 21 Q Okay. 22 A In fact, that's leading up to this now. 23 That happens to be also the time that 24 Mr. Minton -- I believe he came -- well, I'm not sure he was 25 there. Let me think. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 85 1 I can't be sure. 2 Q All right. 3 A But there was a vigil on December 4th or 5th of 4 '97, for Lisa McPherson. And -- there had been several 5 vigils on December 5th of 19 -- December 5th of each year 6 except this last, 2001. I can't testify with certainty when 7 the first one was. 8 My contact for the vigil, though, was not Minton 9 or Stacy Brooks or anybody else except Jeff Jacobsen. Jeff 10 Jacobsen was a critic on the Internet for the Church of 11 Scientology. He was never a Scientologist, as far as I 12 know. And I received a lot of information from him, I 13 think, by telephone on -- and he was trying to help me. I 14 never hired him or anything. 15 But I had all this information; I had all this 16 discovery; I had these people that, if I needed to add on -- 17 And so the first amended complaint, I did add on 18 people. 19 And thereafter, you know, we had motion after 20 motion after motion to dismiss, dismiss, dismiss; technical 21 little things that were not quite right. And one that 22 stands out in my mind is that I didn't have an allegation in 23 there that Dell Liebreich had the consent of Fanny McPherson 24 to become the personal representative of the estate of Lisa 25 McPherson. So I said, "Sure." I put that in and -- I went Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 86 1 back and put that in. And of course, now the -- that's -- 2 that's been changed into a allegation of forgery of her 3 signature. 4 We eventually went to the fifth amended complaint. 5 I dropped Bennetta Slaughter; I dropped AMC Publishing. I 6 had wrongful -- I had nursing home counts in there that I 7 dropped because I had, in good faith, believed that they 8 were operating as a nursing home or assisted care facility. 9 They were unlicensed. They were practicing medicine without 10 a license. We went through all these different counts. I 11 even had a common law wrongful death count in, rather than a 12 statutory wrongful death count, because I had done my 13 research and the research that I found led me to the 14 good-faith belief that there was a common law cause of 15 action as well as a statutory, and the common law gave you 16 more damages than the statute did. 17 So we went through many amended complaints, many 18 motions. We finally ended up -- 19 Let's go now, I guess, to the summer of 1999. And 20 I'm going to try and see if my memory will help me out here. 21 I'm not sure of the first date I met Jesse Prince, 22 but I met Jesse Prince -- 23 MR. WIENBERG: Excuse me, your Honor. Is there 24 a question at this point or is it just going to 25 be -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 87 1 THE COURT: I'll just kind of let him have a 2 narrative. 3 MR. WIENBERG: Okay. 4 THE COURT: In other words -- I don't really 5 know how to do this without a lot of questions, 6 but -- 7 MR. WIENBERG: That's why I haven't objected, 8 but -- but I'm not sure if we still -- 9 THE COURT: There's a certain allegation that 10 seems to be permeating that one of the things that 11 goes to the crux of the lawsuit is that Mr. Minton 12 came in, gave money and then the complaint was 13 changed, and all of the intentional, murderous, 14 whatever allegations came along. So he is now 15 trying to explain how he got to the fifth complaint, 16 and I've kind of let him just do it by a narrative. 17 MR. LIROT: It would save us a lot of time, 18 Judge. 19 THE COURT: I think it would. And rather than 20 him just periodically saying, "What happened 21 next --" 22 MR. WIENBERG: Okay. 23 THE COURT: -- I mean, I think we'll just allow 24 him to go on ahead. 25 MR. WIENBERG: All right. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 88 1 THE COURT: But that's what I'm -- that's -- 2 I'm not interested in other suits that were brought 3 against whatever. I just want to know how and 4 whether or not Mr. Minton -- obviously, the 5 allegation is that Mr. Minton caused, by his 6 donation, this complaint to evolve to where it is. 7 So naturally that is what I'm trying to find out, 8 whether there's any truth to that and, you know, if 9 so, what is it? 10 A Well, let me answer that, 'cause I -- hit the -- 11 the nail on the head, as they say. 12 The allegations of why Lisa McPherson died; did it 13 have anything to do with any of the tech or technology or 14 writings of the Church of Scientology -- all of that 15 information was derived from Robert Vaughn Young. Mr. Young 16 has spent 25 years in Scientology. He was the expert on 17 Scientology that had -- that I had met early on in the case, 18 I believe, March of '97. Then I met Larry Wollersheim and 19 then I met others. But he is the one that told me about the 20 introspection rundown. He's the one that told me, without 21 waiving any privilege here -- 22 BY THE COURT: 23 Q He's a representative -- 24 A Pardon me? 25 No. He was my expert. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 89 1 Q Oh. 2 A And he's testified about this in his deposition. 3 Q Okay. 4 A And he is the one who told me that someone 5 psychotic like Lisa McPherson would be immediately reported 6 up the lines to David Miscavige at the very top of the 7 hierarchy of the Church of Scientology, and he is the one 8 that told me that Scientology will and has permitted people 9 to die rather -- for one purpose only, and that is to 10 protect the public relations image of the Church of 11 Scientology. 12 And I'm sitting there, how does that help them if 13 someone dies? And -- but -- and he showed me some 14 information. 15 And that's how these allegations evolved into the 16 first amended complaint, and it continued on throughout 17 until the fifth amended complaint. 18 Jesse Prince -- I believe it was the summer of 19 '99. And I will say absolutely, positively, I never met 20 with Robert Minton to discuss anything that had to do with 21 pleadings, parties, adding on parties, anything like that. 22 Robert Minton was out there on the Internet and he was out 23 there in Clearwater later on -- not even up until this time. 24 He didn't come to Clearwater till the -- December, I 25 believe, of '99, late fall, December of '99. All of this is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 90 1 me acting as the lawyer, gathering up information. 2 I tried to gather information from the defendants. 3 They were all pleading the Fifth Amendment on advice of 4 counsel because the criminal charges were still there, and I 5 was going through all these amendments based upon what my 6 experts and consultants were telling me, and never had any 7 input from Mr. Minton whatsoever. Never. Not even till 8 today. Not even up till today. Never. 9 Q Okay. 10 A So Jesse Prince arrives on the scene. He tells me 11 his credentials of his experience in the Church of 12 Scientology. 13 Q About when was that, as best you can recall? 14 A I believe it was the summer of '99. I remember -- 15 somebody could correct me -- yeah. I remember flying to Key 16 West, having a meeting with Brian Haney, a former 17 Scientologist; Jesse Prince -- and I think that's when I met 18 him; Dan Leipold, an attorney in California, who has vast 19 years of experience of litigating against the Church of 20 Scientology; and Ford Greene, another attorney from northern 21 California, also with experience in suing religious 22 organizations. 23 That's where I met Jesse Prince, I believe. And 24 that's where we talked and talked and talked. And he flew 25 back with me to my office, and we just started talking. And Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 91 1 I retained him sometime, I believe, thereafter as a expert, 2 as a consultant. And that's when he came up and told me 3 about -- based upon -- he was number two worldwide in the 4 Scientology hierarchy of executives. He was the -- an 5 executive officer -- and I'm forgetting which officer, what 6 position -- of the Religious Technologies Center, which is 7 the corporation -- 8 Q Remember, I -- I read that affidavit that he 9 filed. 10 A There you go. Okay. Then you have it all. 11 Q So -- and I recall that he indicates all of the 12 various things that he did and was involved in in the 13 church. 14 A Okay. So that affidavit culminated from him being 15 in my office, having access to the Scientology literature 16 that I had, reading over the files that I had -- 17 Q Did you have the preclear files at that time? 18 A I can't tell you. I don't know. I just don't 19 remember. 20 See, if I had my pleadings, I could tell you 21 what -- when everything happened. 22 But -- and it's in the record of -- I mean, 23 there's boxes, I'm sure, of pleadings in this case, so I can 24 find that out if and when you want me to find that out. 25 So he came up with this affidavit. I read over Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 92 1 the affidavit. It didn't shock me as much -- had he come in 2 '97, it would have shocked me more than reading -- than what 3 I knew by then, in '99. It didn't shock me at all. 4 So that's when I -- I made a decision to contact 5 my client, Dell Liebreich. And I said, "Look, I have Jesse 6 Prince here," and I told him all about -- told her all about 7 Jesse Prince. I said, "I -- I promised Fanny McPherson, 8 just days before she died, that I would pursue everybody 9 that was responsible, and here I have a guy who could 10 connect every -- all the dots all the way up to the very top 11 of the Church of Scientology. He's seen people die because 12 they were given orders to, quote, end cycle. One of them 13 was one of his very close friends. And this person was in 14 charge of litigation previously years ago for the Church of 15 Scientology. He went around the world hiring law firms; he 16 went around telling them how to conduct their litigation --" 17 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, your Honor. Is what 18 is being described is what Mr. Dandar told 19 Ms. Liebreich that Mr. Prince told him? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. WIENBERG: Okay. 22 A And I said, "You know, we have --" 23 THE COURT: Did you withdraw your objection? I 24 mean, I think -- 25 MR. WIENBERG: It's all hearsay. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 93 1 THE COURT: I know. But I think for this 2 hearing and for what's being alleged here, that I'm 3 going to -- I think it just almost has to come in. 4 MR. WIENBERG: I understand. I just wanted to 5 see if this was him saying -- 6 THE COURT: That's what I am assuming, that he 7 is saying Jesse Prince told him this; at this point 8 in time he called his client, and he was revealing 9 what he had learned to his client. 10 THE WITNESS: Right. 11 MR. WIENBERG: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: Right, right. 13 A So as a result of discussing all this with my 14 client and what I had learned from Jesse Prince -- and I do 15 have a jury trial consultant, Dr. Michael Garko -- Jesse 16 Prince, Michael Garko and I were talking -- 17 BY THE COURT: 18 Q Who is Michael Garko? 19 A He's a jury trial consultant, PhD -- 20 Q Who is this gentleman that always comes to court? 21 A Oh, that's Rick Spector. He's a -- 22 Q Spector. Okay. 23 A -- videographer. 24 Q Have I ever met Dr. Garko? 25 A Yes. During the trial that ended in a hung jury a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 94 1 month ago -- 2 Q Oh, okay. 3 A -- he was in there. 4 And the decision came that we need to go 5 forward -- we have the information, we have an expert 6 witness -- add on these other corporations and other 7 individuals to the lawsuit. So I prepared a motion to amend 8 the complaint. 9 I got a letter from Lee Fugate, when I filed it, 10 saying, you know -- reminding me that there was an agreement 11 that was signed back in December -- November, December of 12 '97, agreeing not to add on parties -- 13 Q This is the fifth amended complaint you're talking 14 about? 15 A This is the last one. 16 Well, no, no, no. This is the -- there's many 17 fifth amended complaints. This was the first one. 18 Q Okay. Maybe I don't even have the right one. 19 THE COURT: I presume, Lee, when you gave me 20 this, you gave me the one that is in existence. 21 MR. FUGATE: The one that is operative now. 22 What he's saying is there were a number of 23 iterations before you got to that. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. WIENBERG: There was a motion to amend, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 95 1 which you may or may not be looking at -- 2 THE COURT: I'm not. What Mr. Fugate provided 3 me was the fifth, fourth, third, second and first. 4 So the fifth is the ultimate fifth that we're 5 dealing with. 6 MR. WIENBERG: It's got January of 2000 on it? 7 THE COURT: It says -- no. It says that this 8 is furnished this 21st day of December 1999 -- 9 MR. WIENBERG: Yeah. That's right. 10 THE WITNESS: That's the one. That's the last 11 one. The operative one. 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q And that's the one where, in addition to -- 14 Now, some of these people came off. Bennetta 15 Slaughter came off. 16 A Oh, yeah. Right. 17 Minkoff, Dr. Minkoff. 18 Q And her corporation. Was that by court order or 19 was that by your -- 20 A Settled -- we just dropped them. We settled with 21 Dr. Minkoff. We dropped Bennetta Slaughter. We dropped -- 22 we decided not to pursue them. 23 Q So at the time the fifth amended complaint was 24 filed, you had left: The Church of Scientology Flag Service 25 Organization, Inc., Janis Johnson, Alain Karduzinski, and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 96 1 David Houghton, and you added to that David Miscavige. 2 A Well, that's the last complaint, yeah. 3 Q Right. 4 A But we're not there yet. We're almost there. 5 Q Okay. 6 A So when Lee Fugate reminded me of this agreement, 7 in 1997, not to add on additional parties, and in exchange 8 for that, the trial would not be delayed, we would hurry up 9 and get to a trial date, and they would not fraudulently 10 convey their property, as they did in the Wollersheim 11 case -- 12 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, your Honor. 13 BY THE COURT: 14 Q Don't need it, Mr. Dandar. 15 A I'm sorry. 16 Q All right. 17 A But I'm -- I'm telling you the truth. 18 Q It doesn't matter. I just don't need it in this 19 hearing. 20 A All right, all right, all right. 21 Q That -- that would be something that Judge Baird 22 might be interested in, but here -- 23 A Okay. 24 Q -- I'm not. 25 A Very well. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 97 1 So I filed a motion to set aside this stipulation. 2 And it went before Judge Moody in October of '99. And Judge 3 Moody ruled the stipulation is valid. I said, "There's no 4 consideration." He said, "No. The stipulation is valid." 5 It was like a short hearing. He said, "But you want to go 6 forward and breach it, you suffer the consequences." 7 And we decided -- and I said it on the record -- 8 we don't intend to breach a valid stipulation. So we backed 9 off and we did not pursue it, and we went back. 10 Q What does that mean, went back? 11 A Well, we went back to redraft the complaint and 12 take these -- 13 Q Okay. 14 A -- proposed defendants off because -- 15 Q All right. 16 A -- we had no intention of breaching the agreement. 17 And he so ruled that we did not breach that 18 agreement. 19 So the Church of Scientology then was -- 20 THE COURT: Excuse me. 21 You know, I -- it isn't a laughing matter, 22 folks. I don't need it, and I don't need the 23 laughter and -- I just don't need it. And I was 24 watching Mr. Dandar and heard it. Therefore, it was 25 loud enough for other people to hear. We have Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 98 1 members of the public that are here. I don't want 2 anybody to think that anything going on here which 3 alleges the types of things that are alleged here 4 are laughing matters. So therefore, when this 5 witness is testifying, you're not to laugh. 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q Continue. 8 A Thank you. 9 So I went back, conferred with my experts, my 10 consultants, my jury trial consultant. 11 Q And again -- 12 A Never -- 13 Q And again, you're -- make sure I understand who 14 you're saying. You're saying Jesse Prince, Vaughn Young -- 15 A Vaughn Young, Jesse Prince, Stacy -- I think she 16 was Stacy Brooks at that time -- Vaughn Young; his ex-wife 17 now, Stacy Brooks; Jesse Prince. Vaughn Young by phone; 18 Jesse Prince in person; Stacy in person; Dr. Michael Garko, 19 my trial consultant -- 20 Q This is a discussion to determine how you're 21 finally going to file this last -- 22 A Yeah. 23 Q -- complaint? 24 A If I'm going to do anything with this -- 25 Q Okay. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 99 1 A -- if I'm just going to let it go. 2 And the only one that was a proponent of this was 3 Stacy Brooks. So I mean, she's -- she just said, "He's the 4 one. He's the one. He's in charge." I said, "I know 5 that," I said, "But you know -- and I know my promise to 6 Fanny McPherson." I said, "Okay, but --" 7 MR. WIENBERG: Will you just identify -- are 8 you talking about Mr. Miscavige? 9 THE WITNESS: Adding on David Miscavige. 10 A Because everyone else are just -- they just -- 11 they do whatever he says to do. He's -- 12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, excuse me. I think 13 Ms. Brooks came in, and Mr. Minton. And if the rule 14 was invoked, I should tell them that? 15 THE COURT: Yes, you should. Ask them if 16 they'd -- 17 Well, let's see. Mr. Minton is a party. 18 THE WITNESS: Not to this case. 19 THE COURT: Not to this case. So he'll have to 20 step out. 21 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 22 THE COURT: Has he been added to the 23 counterclaim? 24 MR. WIENBERG: Yes. He's in the counterclaim. 25 I think. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 100 1 MR. FUGATE: He is in the counterclaim. 2 THE COURT: I think he is. 3 THE WITNESS: I haven't seen an amended 4 counterclaim. 5 MR. MOXON: Judge, you ordered it, but the -- 6 THE COURT: If he hasn't been added as a party 7 yet, he's not a party, so he'll have to step 8 outside. I'm sorry. 9 MR. MOXON: But you -- you ordered that he was 10 added. 11 THE COURT: But he's not been. I mean, that's 12 a decision for you to make, and he hasn't been. 13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I apologize. I had my back 14 to you. Does that -- who am I instructing to leave? 15 THE COURT: Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. 16 MR. FUGATE: Okay. I'll explain that. 17 THE WITNESS: I will add this though, Judge: 18 They are parties before Judge Baird. And if this is 19 a continuation of -- 20 THE COURT: I don't care, frankly, if all the 21 people stay in. I mean, I can't believe for a 22 minute that everybody's not reading what's public 23 record. 24 MR. WIENBERG: Well, the point that Mr. Dandar 25 made is a good one. All the other witnesses were Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 101 1 excluded, but since they were parties in front of 2 Judge Baird, Mr. Minton -- 3 THE COURT: Why don't we just let the people 4 in? What's the harm here? 5 MR. LIROT: Briefly, Judge, I'm going to show 6 this to counsel -- 7 THE COURT: This is sort of a pretrial issue. 8 Obviously a very important issue. But we're not 9 going to be talking about any of the matters that 10 we're going to do at trial if we ever get to a 11 trial. 12 MR. LIROT: I don't have another copy of that. 13 Judge, if I could approach Mr. Dandar? 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you a copy -- 18 THE COURT: I need to make sure -- we asked 19 that the rule be invoked, and now are we just going 20 to allow the witnesses to observe, if they're here? 21 MR. WIENBERG: I would object to anybody other 22 than Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, because they were 23 there during all of Mr. Dandar's testimony in the 24 breach case, but all the other witnesses were 25 excluded. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 102 1 THE COURT: Then I'm excluding them as well. 2 Ask them to step out. 3 MR. WIENBERG: All right. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate, ask them to step out. 5 Okay. Continue. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you what's entitled 8 Order on Plaintiff's Motion to Add Party and File Fifth 9 Amended Complaint, and if you could describe that document 10 and explain that to the court. 11 A Yes. 12 So anyway, after meeting with them, looking at 13 more evidence on the structure of Scientology, at this time 14 I obtained some new information. One of them, I believe, 15 was called RTC news. It's a newsletter put out by the 16 Religious Technology Center, which is a senior corporation 17 to Flag, because Flag sends all of their net profits up to 18 RTC. 19 And it said on the back cover -- and this was 20 introduced before Judge Moody -- 21 MR. WIENBERG: Your Honor, I'm -- 22 A -- that if someone -- 23 MR. WIENBERG: -- going to object to this 24 testimony -- 25 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 103 1 MR. WIENBERG: -- that RTC does this and that. 2 If he could just confine himself to what he did as 3 opposed to -- 4 THE COURT: Well, he's confining himself to why 5 it is he did what he did, and so therefore I think 6 he can say it. Whether it's true or not really is 7 sort of irrelevant. This is why -- he's explaining 8 to us why he did what he did. I mean, you would 9 challenge what Jesse Prince told him as not being 10 true, but he's basing what he did as to filing his 11 fifth amended complaint -- 12 MR. WIENBERG: I understand. 13 THE COURT: -- on what -- 14 MR. WIENBERG: And this is our last comment: 15 He throws in the, "because this is what RTC does, A, 16 B and C," or whatever -- 17 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. Overruled. 18 I'm not suggesting that it's true or not true. 19 I'm just suggesting he's testifying as to how he got 20 to the complaint that we're on, because this was 21 raised as a critical part of the lawsuit which would 22 have some bearing on the motion to dismiss. 23 MR. LIROT: His understanding. 24 THE COURT: His understanding. Exactly. 25 A So I had this newsletter -- I had an original, not Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 104 1 some -- what someone said on the Internet -- I had an 2 original newsletter from RTC. And on the back it says, "You 3 must immediately report PTS Type 3, potential trouble source 4 Type 3, slash, psychotic, immediately up the lines to RTC." 5 And David Miscavige sits up at the top, controls 6 everything, because he is the only captain of the Sea 7 Organization which is the -- 8 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, again. The 9 newsletters didn't say that. It just said what he 10 said. He didn't say David Miscavige is in control 11 of everything and he's the captain of the Sea Org 12 and all that. This is my objection. 13 THE COURT: I believe Jesse Prince or somebody 14 else told him that. 15 MR. WIENBERG: Well, he's testifying about this 16 newsletter. 17 THE COURT: No. He's testifying about -- as a 18 conglomerate of everything he read, what it is he 19 believed and why he filed the fifth amended 20 complaint. 21 Proceed. 22 Overruled. 23 A So -- 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Can you explain the term to the court? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 105 1 THE COURT: What term? 2 A The Sea Organization? 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q PTS Type 3. 5 A Oh -- 6 THE COURT: I don't need that. Good lord, I 7 can tell you I know more than I ever wanted to know 8 about PTS3. 9 A So I had this information. I had Jesse Prince. I 10 had Stacy Brooks. Again, Stacy Brooks was the most vocal 11 about her knowledge within the Office of Special Affairs. 12 Her knowledge about David Miscavige. Jesse Prince had 13 similar knowledge and had more executive experience because 14 he was with RTC. And I had heard from Vaughn Young. 15 And Michael Garko was there with me. And we 16 were -- I was just kind of weary of all this, but again, I 17 had my promise to Fanny McPherson. And I said, "If he's the 18 one that's responsible, then I'm going to go and pursue and 19 add him on as the captain of the Sea Org. Because the Sea 20 Org -- S-e-a, O-r-g, Sea Organization, which are the staff 21 members who run all the corporations of Scientology -- no 22 matter what corporate entity it is, he is the guy that's in 23 charge of all of them. 24 And I saw the newspaper where he went in at some 25 mission-holder conference in San Francisco, as a Sea Org Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 106 1 member, and ousted the president or the officers of this 2 other Scientology, separate on paper, corporation. 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY THE COURT: 5 Q Who did that? 6 A David Miscavige. 7 I said, "Well, then, this guy's pretty powerful." 8 So we filed a motion to file amended -- fifth 9 amended complaint, which is dated December of 1999. Names 10 David Miscavige individually. And we went to a hearing on 11 December 14th, 1999 before Judge Moody. We presented this 12 evidence that I had acquired, plus some of the old evidence 13 I had, and we added him on individually as a defendant, 14 based upon everything I knew at that time. And Judge Moody 15 granted the motion to add on dated January 6th, 2000. 16 And the only reason we proceeded after that is 17 because we had a court order permitting us to add him on. 18 Because as I just told you, back in October, we could not 19 add him on as the chairman of the board of RTC, 'cause RTC 20 was part of this agreement, so we backed off and we didn't 21 pursue it that way. 22 Q So you pursued him -- in other words, on the fifth 23 amended complaint he is listed as a defendant -- 24 A In his individual -- 25 Q -- in his individual capacity, and you had a court Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 107 1 order that allowed you to. 2 A And it's right here. 3 MR. LIROT: I'll hand it to you, Judge. 4 THE COURT: Are you introducing -- this is 5 probably part of this record, but lord only -- 6 MR. LIROT: It's probably -- 7 THE COURT: -- knows where it is. 8 MR. LIROT: I think it's appropriate for 9 judicial notice. It's certainly a document most 10 likely a part of this record. 11 THE WITNESS: It's certainly in the court file. 12 I don't think it's an exhibit before Judge Baird. 13 THE COURT: Okay. The -- this can be made a 14 Defendant's Exhibit? 15 MR. LIROT: I'd like to. 16 MR. WIENBERG: Plaintiff's exhibit. 17 MR. LIROT: We're Plaintiff here. 18 THE COURT: Plaintiff's Exhibit 3. 19 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 3 marked for identification.) 20 THE COURT: If this is your only copy that you 21 have right now, you can substitute a copy after 22 lunch. Or if you have another one of these, we'll 23 just go right ahead and -- 24 THE WITNESS: I'm sure we have another one. 25 No, that's our original. Great. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 108 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. LIROT: I'll -- I'll leave it with the 3 court reporter and then I'll -- I'll retrieve it and 4 make copies, Judge. 5 THE WITNESS: Let's just make a copy later. 6 THE COURT: This is going to -- 7 MR. LIROT: I'll get it from you at the break. 8 THE COURT: All right. This is going to be -- 9 a copy -- made a part of the hearing. It'll be 10 Plaintiff's Exhibit 3. And I'm going to leave it 11 right here to be removed, make a copy, and then 12 given to my clerk, and she'll identify it and mark 13 it at that time. 14 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 15 A Now, what I can tell you without question is that 16 Robert Minton had no input whatsoever in any of these 17 additional parties; in any of the allegations of the 18 complaint; in any of the different counts of the complaint. 19 All those different counts of the complaint came out of my 20 mind based upon what information I had gathered from my 21 consultants and my reading of things and my depositions that 22 I took and my -- depositions that they took. He had 23 absolutely no input whatsoever; I would not permit it. And 24 in fact, he was -- at times I heard he was quite upset about 25 that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 109 1 Now, in -- 2 BY THE COURT: 3 Q His testimony -- I believe he testified, and I 4 could be wrong -- but I believe he testified that -- there 5 was some allegation somewhere that I read that he was upset 6 and indicated he didn't want to finance just a wrongful 7 death; he wanted something that more or less attacked 8 Scientology, and therefore, this new affidavit of Jesse 9 Prince or the affidavit of Jesse Prince and the new 10 complaint was filed. Is that accurate? 11 A It's -- it's basically accurate. What my 12 understanding is, is that Stacy Brooks and Mr. Minton were 13 not pleased at all with me. And quite frankly, I didn't 14 care -- 15 Q Wait -- 16 A -- because I was -- 17 Q Wait a second. 18 You just told us in court that it was not accurate 19 that he had anything to do with the complaint. 20 A Yeah. But I'm just saying what I heard. He never 21 told me that. 22 Q Okay. 23 A I just heard that. 24 Q So you're saying that after you heard what 25 Mr. Minton wanted done, you filed the complaint? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 110 1 A No. I said -- I don't -- you know -- 2 Q Listen to the question. 3 A No. The answer is no. 4 MR. LIROT: Ask -- you can ask the question 5 again, Judge. 6 A Unless I didn't understand your question. 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q The question was -- is, I believe, I read 9 somewhere that Mr. Minton was upset because he didn't want 10 to pay money to fund a, quote, what I would think of as a 11 wrongful death; that being a negligent -- some negligence 12 which causes death and there are damages. And because he 13 was upset, the -- the complaint that added David Miscavige 14 and the allegations of intentional murder by the church or 15 intentional whatever it is by the church was filed. Is that 16 accurate? 17 A No. No. 18 Q All right. 19 A No. 20 Q So are you saying that if Mr. Minton says that, 21 that is not true? 22 A That is not true. 23 Q Okay. 24 A No. Again, Mr. Minton had absolutely no 25 involvement in the way I pled, who I sued, anything about Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 111 1 the litigation. 2 Q So when you answered yes just previously, was that 3 because you didn't listen to my question carefully? 4 A You're absolutely right. 5 Q Well, be very careful about that. Because as I 6 said, both sides seem to sometimes take a word or a sentence 7 or a phrase and file it and use it. And it can be very 8 damaging and it can be very true and exactly what it says. 9 So you must listen to every question -- and I'm 10 going to tell every witness that testifies, you must listen 11 to the whole question that's asked and make sure -- I do 12 this all the time. You know, I do this all the time as a 13 judge. I'll read -- I'll read where my answer, I'm 14 thinking, is a yes to what's been asked, but the truth of 15 the matter is it's really a no the way that the question is 16 asked. 17 You have to -- all witnesses have to be very 18 careful when you're trying to make a record -- and this is 19 really a record that we're trying to make here, whatever 20 this court does -- that's accurate. So you listen before 21 you answer a question. 22 A Okay. 23 So we sent out an interrogatory to Flag, Church of 24 Scientology Flag Service Organization, Inc., the defendant, 25 and said, "Give us the residential address and the business Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 112 1 address of David Miscavige." They objected. We had a 2 hearing before Judge Moody. He compelled the answer. 3 They -- they filed an answer, giving us a Hollywood 4 Boulevard address in Los Angeles for both his residence and 5 his business address. Quite unusual for someone to live 6 where you work -- 7 Q Don't need that. Just -- 8 A All right. 9 MR. LIROT: All right. 10 A So we could never serve him. We could never find 11 him. 12 They filed a motion to dismiss, Mr. Rosen filed on 13 behalf of Miscavige. He was dismissed because we could 14 never get service of process on him. 15 BY THE COURT: 16 Q No, he was not dismissed because of the agreement. 17 A No. 18 Q He was dismissed because he was never served. 19 A Correct. 20 Q Oh. 21 See, I always thought he was dismissed because 22 there was an agreement that he shouldn't be sued. 23 MR. WIENBERG: Originally he was dismissed, as 24 was RTC and the other church organizations, because 25 of the agreement. Then Mr. Dandar refiled under Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 113 1 this theory of the Sea Org, and -- and Judge Moody, 2 whose order in front of you, allowed Mr. Miscavige, 3 not as the representative of RTC as he was sued 4 before, but as the -- as the Sea Org thing. 5 THE COURT: And the reason why he's out of this 6 litigation, then, as an individual, is because 7 service of process was never had on him. 8 THE WITNESS: Right. 9 THE COURT: Oh, okay. I was -- again, I was 10 confused. I thought that he had been dismissed by a 11 court as an inappropriate party because of the 12 agreement or the contract or whatever. 13 MR. WIENBERG: Well, again, he originally was. 14 THE COURT: I understand. 15 MR. LIROT: I'll ask this question, then -- 16 THE COURT: But he wasn't now. In the fifth 17 complaint, the complaint we're trying, he was 18 dismissed because he wasn't correct. 19 MR. LIROT: That's correct. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Was Mr. Miscavige added in his capacity identified 24 in Judge Moody's order as a different capacity than that 25 that was the subject of this stipulation? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 114 1 A Yes. Yes. And it was after a hearing, 2 presentation of some evidence, Jesse Prince's affidavit, and 3 Judge Moody said he's not covered by this agreement 4 whatsoever, and permitted us to add him on as a defendant. 5 Q Very good. 6 A So I'm trying to figure out what the issues are, 7 because I don't want to talk about five years of litigation. 8 Trying to figure out where we're heading here. 9 Q We're -- 10 THE COURT: Well, I think that completes the 11 complaint. In other words, his testimony is, as I 12 understand it, that Mr. Minton had nothing to do 13 with the filing of his complaint. 14 MR. LIROT: Correct. 15 THE COURT: And that certainly Mr. Minton's 16 money had nothing to do with the filing of his 17 complaint. 18 MR. LIROT: Correct. 19 THE COURT: Based on his work, his work 20 product, his dealing with experts, affidavits, 21 whatever. And that Mr. Minton's money had nothing 22 to do with it. That's the sum and substance of that 23 testimony. 24 MR. LIROT: Correct. 25 THE WITNESS: Correct. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 115 1 THE COURT: Now you need to move on to point 2. 2 MR. LIROT: Well, I -- I would like to -- I'll 3 ask these questions for the record, Judge. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Were any allegations in the fifth amended 7 complaint, which were included, false, to your knowledge, or 8 included with knowledge of their falsity? 9 A No. Never. 10 Q All right. Were they -- were any allegations made 11 to, quote, create scandalous publicity against the church? 12 A No. 13 Q Did Mr. Minton ever ask you to add any allegations 14 to create scandalous publicity against the church? 15 A Never. 16 Q Were any of the allegations in the fifth amended 17 complaint included to create a negative reaction against the 18 church among the public, the press and among local, state 19 and national government authorities? 20 A Never. 21 Q Were any of the allegations in the fifth amended 22 complaint included to infect the jury pool? 23 A Never. 24 Q Were any allegations in the fifth amended 25 complaint added to increase the cost and expense of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 116 1 defending this litigation and coerce a highly inflated 2 settlement of the case? 3 A Never. 4 Q All right. Were those allegations included as a 5 result of your due diligence and research and your judgment 6 as an attorney in this case? 7 A Absolutely. 8 And the fact is, the allegations are based upon 9 the written documents of the Church of Scientology. 10 Q Now, when you consulted with Ms. Brooks and 11 Mr. Prince, were they actually working for you as 12 consultants in this case? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And -- 15 A And Jesse Prince was a trial expert as well. 16 Q All right. And Ms. Brooks, not named as an 17 expert, was a consultant. 18 A She was a consultant; never a testifying witness. 19 Q All right. Did she ever execute a confidentiality 20 agreement with you pursuant to her services of consultant in 21 this case? 22 A Yes. I believe she did. I think I had everybody 23 that was working on this execute a confidentiality 24 agreement. 25 Q Based on your research, did you have any reason to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 117 1 doubt the veracity or validity of any of the information 2 given to you by Jesse Prince or Ms. Brooks that led to the 3 allegations in the fifth amended complaint? 4 A No. Because all of their statements were backed 5 up by the written documents of the Church of Scientology. I 6 just -- it was just too much for me to read -- anyone to 7 read, tens of thousands -- 8 THE COURT: You know, I don't know that that -- 9 I mean, we're going to have to litigate what -- what 10 a jury's going to litigate here in this hearing. We 11 don't have the time for it. They've already 12 scheduled that for between two and four months in 13 front of a jury. 14 But what I need to know, as I understand it, is 15 whether or not that Miscavige (sic), in the giving 16 of this money, had anything to do with the 17 allegations that were filed. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 MR. WIENBERG: You mean Minton, right? 20 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Pardon me. Minton. 21 THE WITNESS: No. I have never -- I have never 22 received a dime from Robert Minton that had anything 23 to do with how the case was handled. The only time 24 I received a dime from Mr. Minton was when he asked 25 me if I needed money, or I asked him. That's it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 118 1 THE COURT: Okay. Seems like this would be a 2 good place to stop for lunch. I'm sorry. It's my 3 problem. 4 MR. LIROT: That's all right. That's why I set 5 my alarm. 6 THE COURT: Number 1 -- 7 MR. LIROT: I think we're finished with 8 number 1, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. Then we'll come back 10 and let him step down and proceed with Ms. Brooks 11 this afternoon, or the rest of your case, whatever 12 it might be. Then we'll put Mr. Dandar back on the 13 stand. 14 MR. FUGATE: What time do you want to resume? 15 THE COURT: How about 1:00? And I hope I'm 16 done. I'm going to take my lunch hour and eat in 17 and tend to my business. 18 Okay. We'll see you at 1. And if I have any 19 extra time, I'll try to read these complaints. 20 And you give this to my clerk, okay? 21 MR. LIROT: Immediately, Judge. 22 (A recess was taken.) 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 119 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 4th day of May, 2002. 13 14 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 145 1 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 2 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 15 DATE: May 3, 2002, afternoon session. 16 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 17 St. Petersburg, Florida. 18 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 19 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, 20 Notary Public, State of Florida at large. 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 146 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 147 1 APPEARANCES (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 148 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 149 1 THE COURT: Okay. Continue on. 2 MR. LIROT: We'll wait for Mr. Fugate, but I 3 want to make a statement before we start. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. FUGATE: Sorry, Judge, actually I was in 6 line at the men's room. Believe it or not. 7 THE COURT: Counsel wanted to make a statement. 8 MR. LIROT: The only thing, Judge, he made a 9 comment about Mr. Dandar participating in the 10 pickets. And I know I talked to him about it -- 11 Mr. Dandar never participated in any picket. I 12 think his statement was he was in a vigil or 13 something like that. But he was just very concerned 14 about that. 15 THE COURT: All I know is I saw a picture of 16 Mr. Dandar carrying a sign that appeared like what 17 somebody might carry in a picket, vigil, whatever 18 one wanted to call it. I don't know that it was a 19 picket, to tell you the truth. I don't know what it 20 was. But I know I saw Mr. Dandar with a sign 21 involving this case. 22 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 23 THE COURT: Involving Lisa McPherson. But I, 24 quite frankly -- 25 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 150 1 Honor? I'd offer -- 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Well, first of all, do you recognize the folks in 4 the photo there that I've just handed up, which would be our 5 Exhibit 74? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And can you identify it, please? 8 A Well, it's the trial team. 9 Q Okay. And the trial team would be -- who is on 10 the far left, as you look at the photo? 11 A That's Jesse Prince. 12 Q Okay. And what is he holding in his hand? 13 A He's holding -- 14 THE COURT: Did you not just put this into 15 evidence? 16 MR. FUGATE: Yes. Well, I tried -- 17 THE COURT: Did I not see it? 18 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. 19 THE COURT: I mean, we can see it. It's in 20 evidence, right? It's a picture of -- what do you 21 want her to explain? It's in evidence. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Okay. Is Mr. Dandar in the photograph? 24 A Yes, he is. 25 Q Okay. And is this outside the criminal court -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 151 1 A Yes. 2 Q -- in Pinellas County? 3 THE COURT: And whatever -- this is isn't the 4 one I saw. I saw a picture with Mr. Dandar holding 5 a sign himself. 6 MR. FUGATE: Yeah. I've got those, Judge -- 7 THE COURT: I think. 8 MR. FUGATE: -- as well. Put those in here -- 9 Well, let's try to address the judge's concerns 10 and move forward. Would that be 74, or you say it's 11 already in? 12 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, did you get your copy? 13 THE CLERK: Yes, Judge. 14 THE COURT: I believe that's 74. 15 THE CLERK: Yes. 16 THE COURT: Here, did you get this, Madam 17 Clerk? 18 Continue. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q And to follow up, did Mr. Dandar, to your 21 observation, participate in picketing? 22 A Yes. I do believe I recall him actually holding a 23 sign a couple of times, but you know, he also participated 24 in the -- what sort of became known as the annual memorial 25 for Lisa McPherson. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 152 1 Q Which is -- 2 A A lot of people would come to Clearwater -- 3 Q December 4th and 5th or thereabouts each year? 4 A It was on the anniversary of her death, on 5 December 5th. 6 Q Now, in your affidavit, you -- you have a term, 7 the secret agreement. And to go right to the heart of that 8 issue, can you describe what you mean -- what you're 9 describing in your affidavit as the secret agreement and how 10 it differs from the other funding agreement as you 11 understood it? 12 A Well, as I -- 13 MR. LIROT: Objection. No foundation. I don't 14 know what the other agreement is. I don't know what 15 the secret agreement is. I need a foundation for 16 this, Judge, at least. 17 THE COURT: Well, it's her affidavit. She's 18 called it secret agreement, so we need to know -- 19 she needs to testify about it. 20 MR. FUGATE: I'm asking her to do it in her 21 words, Judge. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 A Okay. I said before, that there was an agreement 24 between Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar and the estate that the bulk 25 of the proceeds from the wrongful death case would go to the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 153 1 LMT. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Okay. 4 THE COURT: And I think that what -- what's 5 fair here, if this was counsel's objection, we need 6 to know, ma'am, not what you -- we need to know sort 7 of what you participated in. In other words, when 8 you say there was an agreement between this one, 9 this one and this one, where you participated and 10 what parties were present and this type of thing. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 THE COURT: Okay? 13 A I was told by Mr. Minton that this agreement 14 existed; it was mentioned at the -- when Mr. Dandar and 15 Ms. Liebreich attended the first board meeting of the LMT; 16 we all greeted each other and chatted afterwards and talked 17 about how exciting this was and -- 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Was there specifically conversation about the 20 funding by Mr. Minton and -- 21 A Yeah. How exciting it was that the bulk of the 22 proceeds was going to go to the LMT and -- 23 Q All right. Did -- you identified Ms. Liebreich. 24 Were those words that came out of her mouth? 25 A Those were words that came out of Mr. Dandar's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 154 1 mouth, but she was there and she was -- she nodded in 2 agreement, and she was very appreciative of Mr. Minton's 3 help and -- 4 Q And was there an understanding in that discussion 5 that there would be a payback of the moneys that had been 6 put into the case? 7 MR. LIROT: Objection. Competency. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q If you know. 10 THE COURT: With that, if she knows. I mean, 11 it seems like we started off talking about the 12 proceeds from recovery. 13 MR. FUGATE: No. The -- 14 THE COURT: Talking about something else now? 15 THE WITNESS: The secret agreement, your Honor, 16 wasn't that he would get -- that he would get the -- 17 his loan back; the secret agreement -- I mean, that 18 was just a regular loan agreement that he had made 19 with the estate and Mr. Dandar at the beginning; 20 that, you know, he would be repaid the money that he 21 had loaned them from the proceeds of the case. 22 MR. LIROT: Objection. Best evidence. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. Apparently best 24 evidence would be nice if we had something in 25 writing, but we don't apparently. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 155 1 THE WITNESS: But the agreement that I'm 2 referring to was an agreement that was separate from 3 that loan agreement. 4 THE COURT: Yeah. This was the agreement 5 you're talking about that the -- that the -- 6 THE WITNESS: Bulk. 7 THE COURT: -- bulk -- 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 9 THE COURT: The bulk of the proceeds -- 10 THE WITNESS: The bulk of the proceeds. 11 THE COURT: -- would go to the -- 12 THE WITNESS: -- LMT. And Mr. Minton was very 13 excited about this and talked about it on the 14 Internet. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Published it. 17 A On the Internet. 18 And also talked about it on a radio show that he 19 was on and -- and this was -- 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY THE COURT: 22 Q How could it be secret if it was on the Internet? 23 A It wasn't secret at that time. 24 Q You put it in your affidavit. 25 A Yeah. And the -- well, I'll get to the secret Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 156 1 part -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A -- in just a second. But you know, the people at 4 the LMT knew about it and it was sort of a happy thing. I 5 mean, everybody was very happy about it. 6 Q And everybody who read the Internet knew about it, 7 I guess. 8 A Yeah. For sure, that's true. 9 Q Okay. 10 A And then -- then what happened was Scientology 11 started to interject an argument into the wrongful death 12 case saying that, you know, this was all a business deal; 13 Minton was going to benefit from this case; this was -- you 14 know, he was -- you know, doing all these things for 15 business reasons. And Mr. Dandar got, you know, really 16 upset that Scientology was doing this. You know, we had a 17 couple of conversations in which I said to him, Mr. Dandar, 18 there's nothing wrong with the bulk of the proceeds going to 19 the Lisa McPherson Trust. And you know, so what if 20 Scientology says that about it? 21 But Mr. Dandar was -- 22 THE COURT: Sounds like me, doesn't it? Isn't 23 that what I said? 24 Okay. Sorry. 25 A Yeah. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 157 1 But Mr. Dandar was really concerned about it. You 2 know, the Scientology attorneys were really turning this 3 into a major issue. And so Mr. Dandar told us that we were 4 going to have to stop talking about this agreement about the 5 bulk of the proceeds. And -- and then -- 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q And when did that occur? 8 A When he said that? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A In the fall. It started to be, you know, don't 11 talk about that, don't talk about that, in the -- in the 12 fall of 2000. 13 Q Okay. 14 A As I recall. Maybe late summer. Whenever the -- 15 you know, you'd be able to tell by the record of the case 16 because whenever that thing started happening where they 17 were accusing Minton of investing in the lawsuit, you know, 18 that whole thing. 19 I think it was late summer or fall of 2000. And 20 then it -- December, 2000 is when the secret agreement 21 became a real serious issue because that was when Mr. Minton 22 signed the false affidavit about it. And he felt extremely 23 uncomfortable about it because -- and I actually encouraged 24 him to feel extremely uncomfortable about it, because it 25 seemed to me that if he was putting in writing and swearing Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 158 1 to the fact that there was no agreement, well, then -- then 2 there wasn't going to be any bulk of the proceeds going to 3 anything. And you know, he spoke to Mr. Dandar about this, 4 and Mr. Dandar said -- 5 MR. LIROT: Objection. We don't know if she 6 was anywhere near these conversations. 7 THE WITNESS: I was. I was there. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Whenever I talk about 10 one of these conversations, I mean 'cause I was 11 there. 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q Okay. 14 A You know -- and he talked to me about it quite a 15 bit, Mr. Minton did. Because I was saying, you know, "Don't 16 do this. It's not a good idea." 17 But he spoke to Mr. Dandar about it; Mr. Dandar 18 said, "Look, you know, the agreement still exists. It's 19 just that we can't talk about it and we can't -- you know, 20 it -- we've got to get away from this in the case because 21 they're really trying to use this as a way to, you know, 22 derail the case, so --" or whatever. 23 And so, you know, of course, that's what's going 24 to happen when the -- when the -- when we get a judgment. 25 But we have to say that it's not. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 159 1 Q If we just file a bunch of false affidavits, we 2 won't derail the case. 3 A Well, you see, your Honor, that's a good point you 4 bring up, because -- right. 5 Q I'm sorry. I just kind of interjected myself, and 6 I didn't need to do that. 7 A Well -- 8 Q I'm sorry. 9 A That's how I feel about it too. It's -- 10 subsequently, I lied about this in a deposition; Mr. Minton 11 lied about this in a deposition. 12 Q About this -- 13 A About the fact that -- 14 Q The bulk of the proceeds were going -- 15 A Right. 16 Q -- to be -- 17 A That was asked -- that was specifically asked, I 18 think it was by Mr. Moxon, I think. You know, I -- and 19 first he asked me about it and I tried to get around it by 20 distracting him in another direction, but you know, that 21 didn't work. And so then he asked me again, you know, "Is 22 there an agreement for the bulk of the proceeds?" And I 23 said, "No." Well, you know, I was lying. And Mr. Minton 24 started lying about it. And -- 25 Q Why, for heaven sakes? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 160 1 A Well -- 2 Q You had already said -- you said what's the big 3 deal? It's okay. 4 A I know, but Mr. Dandar felt very, very strongly 5 that it was important that we do this. And -- 6 Q Did he ever say why? Other than they were just 7 making a big deal about it and -- 8 A Because they -- because -- 9 Q It was derailing the case? 10 A Yeah. Because Scientology was using this 11 agreement to turn the case into a case about Mr. Minton and 12 not about Lisa McPherson. That was basically the -- the way 13 that he spoke about it. Scientology was turning it into a 14 case about Mr. Minton and not about Lisa McPherson. 15 Q Okay. 16 A And so the only way to get the attention off of 17 Mr. Minton was to say that there was no agreement. 18 Now, you can imagine this was a little difficult 19 to do after he'd gone on the radio and posted things on the 20 Internet saying that there was. And of course, Mr. Moxon 21 was bringing these things out at his deposition and saying, 22 "There's no agreement? Well, then why did you say there was 23 an agreement?" You know, it was -- it was -- it was just so 24 obvious. You know, it was just so obvious. 25 But -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 161 1 Q Well, you knew that -- you knew -- you've been in 2 this Church of Scientology. You knew they had fine lawyers. 3 A The best -- 4 Q And you knew that they absolutely would have known 5 what was out on the Internet said by Mr. Minton. 6 A In a heartbeat. 7 Q And surely, surely, you knew therefore there would 8 be a deposition where Mr. Minton would be asked about, 9 "Well, look here what you said." Did you talk to him about 10 this? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q Did you say, "We're crazy to do this"? 13 A Yes, your Honor, I certainly said that. 14 Q Did you tell Mr. Dandar, "I can't believe you're 15 asking us to do such a stupid thing"? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q And what did he say? What did -- 18 A Well -- 19 Q -- Mr. Dandar say? 20 A In fact -- in fact, I had, even before that 21 started, to say to Mr. Minton, "Stop funding this case, we 22 need to get away from it as far as we can." And to 23 Mr. Dandar, you know, "You cannot keep asking Mr. Minton -- 24 especially him -- to lie. You know, he's getting in worse 25 and worse and worse trouble. And you know, don't keep Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 162 1 asking him for money because all it's doing is getting him 2 into more and more and more depositions where he's having to 3 lie more and more." 4 Q What did he say? 5 A "Stop asking him for money." 6 Q What did Mr. Dandar say? 7 A He went like this. 8 Q That same -- 9 A The same thing. 10 MR. FUGATE: The gesture, for the record? 11 THE WITNESS: It was a gesture. 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q But he didn't say anything? 14 A He said, "That's up to Bob." 15 You know, this whole thing came up that -- then it 16 came about that Mr. Dandar and his group of people were 17 feeling that I was manipulating Mr. Minton and that I was, 18 you know, having some sort of sinister influence over him, 19 for reasons which I -- have never really been clear to me. 20 But there was this whole thing and, you know, that I was 21 doing something really bad to be trying to get Mr. Minton to 22 stop his funding of the case and to stop this -- you know, I 23 don't think that other people were aware of the fact that 24 this perjury was going on, because I certainly wasn't saying 25 a word about it to anybody else except for Mr. Minton and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 163 1 Mr. Dandar. And -- but there was a -- there was a 2 deposition on August 15th, 1999 -- no, I'm sorry -- 2000 -- 3 was it '99 or 2000? Just a minute. I'll tell you. 4 FROM THE GALLERY: 2001. 5 A August, 2001. Sorry. 6 THE COURT: Who -- who in the world is giving 7 her answers back there? Please. 8 A On August 15th, 2001. Okay. So that was after. 9 So I'm sorry. I was mixed up. 10 I'll go back to the December, 2000 time. 11 Mr. Dandar had -- 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q Okay. Let -- I've written down a wrong date here 14 now. 15 A Yeah. Forget the August 15th. I'll get to that 16 in a minute. 17 Q Okay. So what are we going back to? 18 A We're going back to December, 2000. 19 Q 12-2000. I got you. 20 A That was when Bob signed the affidavit that said 21 there was no agreement. I believe that was the same time as 22 Liebreich signed an affidavit that there was no agreement. 23 And I think it was shortly after that that Mr. Dandar filed 24 a motion attacking those two pleadings -- I mean, those two 25 affidavits, asserting that there was no agreement. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 164 1 Well, you know, I was starting to feel like 2 Mr. Minton was getting set up to be royally shafted. 3 Q Good choice of words. I had another one. I was 4 waiting to see if you could find -- 5 A I was thinking of something else. 6 Q I'll bet you were. 7 A I began to feel that way very strongly. And you 8 know, Mr. Minton felt very strongly about this cause, 9 that -- about being against Scientology. He felt very, very 10 strongly about it. And he was providing funding -- 11 Q I'm sorry. I was coughing. He was what? 12 A He was providing funding to Mr. Dandar without 13 asking for any accounting of what was being done with the 14 money; despite the fact that he was being put into grave 15 legal danger by doing so. And I began to feel that he was 16 being sold down the river. And -- 17 Q This was -- are we back now to this 12-2000 thing? 18 A We're moving a little further from there. 19 Q After -- 20 A We're moving into the future -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- from December, 2000. 23 Q What was it that happened in December, 2000? What 24 was the point of that date? 25 A He signed that false affidavit. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 165 1 Q Oh, okay. 2 A And then -- okay, this is into -- now we're -- now 3 we're moving into 2001. Now things are falling apart to 4 such a degree that it's a nightmare. Because now 5 Scientology has started to, you know, depose me and demand 6 documents out of the Lisa McPherson Trust because 7 Scientology has now made the connection between the Lisa 8 McPherson Trust, all the witnesses that are, you know, being 9 paid at the Lisa McPherson Trust, all the people that are on 10 the advisory border -- I mean, that's basically -- 11 Mr. Minton had gathered up all of his Scientology critics 12 that he was helping in one way or another in litigation 13 against Scientology or in whatever other capacity he was 14 funding them, and it was all under the umbrella of the Lisa 15 McPherson Trust. You know, the witnesses for the Lisa 16 McPherson case worked for the Lisa McPherson Trust. 17 And you know, the two things had just -- well, you 18 know, Judge Beach, one day in a deposition, I almost had a 19 heart attack, he -- you know, we're trying so hard to keep 20 these things apart -- and Judge Beach says, you know, 21 "There's no --" this is Mr. Minton's depo that I was in -- 22 he said, "There's no difference between Mr. Minton and the 23 LMT, the Lisa McPherson case -- it's all the same." 24 And so now they started to be able to -- they 25 started making document demands at the LMT and -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 166 1 Q They being Scientology? 2 A Scientology. And I started evading discovery and 3 lying about our records, and -- 4 Q Why? 5 A -- and at that point -- 6 Q I mean, why? 7 A Why? 8 Q Why were you lying about your records? I mean, 9 was there anything -- 10 A Because I'll tell you why. 11 Q -- was there anything illegal about LMT? 12 A You know what? I wasn't sure if there was 13 anything in those records that could hurt the case or not. 14 And if there was any possibility that it would hurt the 15 case, we had to not give it to them. And so -- and you 16 know, Mr. Minton was doing everything possible to protect 17 the case; Mr. Dandar was doing everything possible to 18 protect the case; and -- and then I was doing everything 19 possible to protect the case; you know, not turning over, 20 you know -- you've seen all the stuff in the affidavit, you 21 know, the unedited videotape, the hard drives -- you know, I 22 had these hard drives -- well, Mr. Minton and I both -- got 23 these hard drives removed, you know, about a half an hour 24 before the judge ordered that these -- maybe it was you -- 25 Q I don't think it was because I don't remember Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 167 1 doing that. 2 A Maybe it was Judge Quesada. But in any case, you 3 know, about half an hour before the judge ordered that 4 nothing could be taken out of the LMT, we're getting the 5 hard drives out of the computers and shipping them off. I 6 mean, you know -- 7 Q But why? I guess I just -- I'm just beside myself 8 trying to figure out why? Was there something illegal about 9 LMT? And I'm talking now about was it doing drugs, was it 10 doing some criminal activity, was there something wrong with 11 it? 12 A No, your Honor. 13 Q It was set up to -- to -- to be what? An 14 anti-Scientology organization? 15 A It was set up to expose the deceptive and abusive 16 processes of Scientology. 17 Q Okay. And then -- so there was nothing illegal 18 about that. 19 A No. 20 Q I mean, that's free speech. It was set up as a 21 for-profit organization, as I remember. If there was an 22 agreement, if there was an agreement that said that, golly, 23 if the aunts of Lisa McPherson got a bundle of money, 24 they'll contribute to this group so that they would have 25 some money, there isn't anything illegal about that, that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 168 1 you knew of? 2 A Right. 3 Q Well, then what in the -- what in the hell were 4 you hiding stuff for? 5 A Because Mr. Dandar was so adamant about not 6 letting Scientology delve into the connection between the 7 LMT and the case. He was so adamant about -- 8 Q Well, you're a smart woman. 9 A Yeah. Well -- 10 Q You sit here today, and I'm listening to you and 11 you're as bright as you can be. You're a smart, bright 12 woman. If he had said that to you, didn't you ever say, 13 "We're crazy and we're not going to lie and put ourselves in 14 jeopardy for your crazy thoughts? I'm not going to do it 15 and Bob's not going to do it." I mean, you know, it's hard 16 for me to envision, ma'am, why you'd lie, destroy things 17 about an entity that's legal. 18 And you must understand that this is 19 extraordinarily frustrating for a court. Why you'd lie 20 about an entity that's, as far as I know, legal, about money 21 that might be coming to it which is legal. I don't know any 22 reason in the world why a smart person like you -- and I 23 have to guess Mr. Minton's a smart man -- would lie, destroy 24 stuff, subject yourself to the -- to the wrath of the court, 25 for what? Mr. Dandar and his -- his supposition that this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 169 1 was going to hurt the case? 2 A Yes, your Honor. 3 Q You believed him? 4 A No. You see, you have to understand. It goes 5 back to the thing that I was telling you about before, which 6 is the state of mind of the fraternity of critics; that, you 7 know -- 8 Q Who -- who is in that fraternity? I mean, the 9 ones that I know of that are connected with this case. 10 Jesse Prince? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q You? 13 A Yeah. 14 Q Your ex-husband? 15 A Yeah. Lots of other people. The people -- the 16 people that are named in paragraph -- let me see. 17 Q Can you include Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar and 18 Mr. Garko in that, Scientology critics? 19 A Mr. Minton. 20 Q The fraternity? 21 A Mr. Minton. 22 Q Okay. 23 A On paragraph 18. 24 Q Okay. 25 A There's a bunch of people named in there. There's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 170 1 some others that are in the courtroom right now. You know, 2 and these people could feel that right now what I'm doing 3 right now is so treasonous; you know, they are so mad at me 4 for getting up here and telling the truth about this stuff, 5 I can't even begin to tell you. 6 Q Who are they? 7 A Because I have sold out the Lisa McPherson case; I 8 have sold out Ken Dandar, who is the hero of the critic 9 community, because he's the attorney for the Lisa McPherson 10 case. And -- and that is the perspective that this group of 11 people has. We were part of this group of people. And the 12 idea that I would sit there in front of Kendrick Moxon, you 13 know, who is the enemy, and -- and give him our documents 14 out of the Lisa McPherson Trust or that -- you know, that we 15 would actually tell him the truth about what we were 16 doing -- it just wasn't an option. 17 I mean, it just -- it was -- you know, we were 18 part of a very, very, very tightknit group of people with a 19 very, very strong purpose: To destroy Scientology. And it 20 was -- it was a cause. It was a cause. And you know, 21 Mr. Dandar took advantage of that, I feel. And -- and put 22 Mr. -- Mr. Minton and me in a position where we were 23 basically being held hostage to this case. Because he knew 24 we had lied in deposition; he knew that these things had 25 happened. I was begging him to stop asking Mr. Minton for Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 171 1 any more money. I was begging him to -- to let us go. He 2 wouldn't do it. Finally in -- finally in August, 2001 -- 3 Q Why didn't you go back to New Hampshire, wherever 4 Mr. Minton is, and say, "See ya, sayonara, bye." 5 A Why didn't he do that? 6 Q Yeah. Why didn't you both do that. 7 A Well, I -- okay. So now, starting August 15th, 8 2001 was when this nightmare started to get really bad for 9 me. Because there was a deposition -- 10 Q Now we're up to August, 2000 -- 11 A Now we're almost done. There was a deposition of 12 me, and it was in Tampa, and I think Mr. Moxon was the 13 attorney. He usually was. And Mr. Dandar and Mr. -- 14 Dr. Garko were also in this deposition. And Judge Beach was 15 in the deposition. And this was -- and I had been 16 ordered -- subpoenaed to bring all kind of records. And I 17 appeared in this and I walked into this deposition and I 18 didn't bring anything. I don't think I brought -- maybe I 19 brought some -- you know, something, but nothing substantive 20 at all. And -- 21 Judge Beach sat there in that deposition and told 22 me that if he ordered me to turn over documents and I didn't 23 do it, he was going to put me in jail. 24 Well, I went to the moon. I was so scared. 25 'Cause, you know, it really finally hit me, you know, what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 172 1 kind of -- what kind of situation that we were really 2 putting ourselves in. You know, we were about to go to jail 3 for this case. And -- and even if we did go to jail for the 4 case, it wasn't going to save the case, because it was 5 already so off the rails with all of this stuff that was 6 going on. 7 Q Did you ever, in your smartest -- I mean, as I 8 said, I look at you and I look at you as a -- as a bright 9 woman who is very articulate, who -- who I don't know what 10 your level of education, but you certainly sound like -- did 11 it ever occur to you that once you said -- took the tack 12 that you're taking now, which is boy, this is a bunch of 13 lies, that somebody like me might not be most upset? 14 A You know, your Honor -- 15 Q Or did you think that I'd say, "Well, finally 16 we're all getting to the truth of this" and I'd just be 17 happy as a clam? I mean, did you ever think -- 18 A I thought -- I'll tell you what I thought. I 19 thought that I was in a very, very untenable position. 20 Because now I was faced with a choice. Either I could start 21 telling the truth -- and in my mind, that was going to 22 derail the case. Mr. Dandar was telling Mr. Minton at every 23 opportunity that it would derail the case. Don't tell them 24 about those checks. Don't tell them about the secret 25 agreement. You know, so -- so either we could tell the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 173 1 truth and derail this thing, which was, you know, considered 2 by the critic community to be -- to be the symbol of, you 3 know, truth and justice for Lisa McPherson and against 4 Scientology. 5 And you know -- and you know, by now I was feeling 6 very differently about it. But Mr. Minton was still feeling 7 that way. 8 And -- and so either we could start telling the 9 truth and derail the case or we could go to jail. And from 10 August 15th forward, that's the way I started seeing it. 11 And so I went up to New Hampshire after that 12 deposition, and I asked Mr. Minton if I could please call 13 Dell Liebreich and tell her what was going on. 14 Q When was this, ma'am? 15 A This was later in August. 16 Q Okay. 17 A I think. 18 Q 2001? 19 A 2001. It was after that deposition, because I was 20 so freaked out. 21 And you know, I said, There is no way Dell 22 Liebreich knows that this is going on. If she knew this was 23 going on, she would never allow it to happen. She will drop 24 this case. Because you know, the only way we could get out 25 of it was for -- for the case to get dropped. Otherwise, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 174 1 you know, we were going to go to jail, or the case was going 2 to get derailed and be a mess, or -- you know, the only way 3 it could -- could end cleanly would be to drop it, you know. 4 And so Bob said, you know, "Shoot, they won't drop 5 it," you know, whatever. I said, you know, "You got to let 6 me try." 7 Well, you know, it -- Bob -- Mr. Minton's attitude 8 was, "She already knows everything that's going on and she's 9 not going to drop the case to save me or you." 10 Well, I called her and -- 11 And I had discussed this earlier with Jesse Prince 12 and Teresa Summers, who were -- was another woman who used 13 to work at the LMT. And I told her -- 14 Q "Discussed this." We're talking about -- 15 A The idea of calling Dell -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- and asking her to do this. 18 And -- but in any case, so I called her and -- and 19 I asked her if we could meet. I asked -- actually, I -- I 20 believe I asked her if I could fly to Texas to talk to her. 21 And she said, "Well, will Ken be there?" And I said, "Well, 22 I'd really prefer to talk to you alone." And she said, 23 "Well, okay. Come on then." Or something like that. 24 Q When was this call, do you remember? 25 A This was later in August of 2001. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 175 1 Q After -- sometime in August, but after your 2 deposition? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 A And then she called me back. I mean, you know, I 6 was so nervous doing this. This was like -- this was so -- 7 I mean, for the critic community, for me to call Dell 8 Liebreich and ask her to drop the wrongful death case was 9 the most horrific thing I could possibly do. And so I was 10 very nervous about this. But I felt like we had to do it, 11 because I was -- you know, by this time I had had many, 12 many, many conversations with Mr. Dandar in which I had told 13 him that it was a terrible thing, what he was doing; that he 14 was continuing this thing at -- at the risk -- and putting 15 Mr. Minton at such a risk. 16 Q Did you ask him to call Ms. Liebreich and drop the 17 case? Did you ask him to drop the case? 18 A Yes. I had talked to him about it. And he 19 said -- you know, "This is -- this is a just and noble thing 20 that we're doing, and this has to continue forward. We have 21 to get justice for Lisa McPherson." And you know, all this 22 pious thing, that, by then, I didn't feel had anything 23 whatsoever to do with his motivation in this case. 24 So I called her and I asked her this. And you 25 know, this was a fairly major threshold that I'd crossed in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 176 1 this whole process. Because at that point, I became 2 deliberately and consciously against this lawsuit. And -- 3 and then she called back and said, "No, no, no. We can't do 4 it. I talked to Ken and, you know, he doesn't want me to 5 talk to you and I don't want to talk to you." And -- and, 6 you know, she was very distraught. 7 Q You didn't ask her to drop -- you had just asked 8 to meet with her alone -- 9 A Right. 10 Q -- and she said she could not do that. 11 A Right. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Right. 14 Q Did you tell her why you wanted to meet with her? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. 17 A I didn't. But later I had a conversation with Ken 18 Dandar, which was that -- you know, "I knew you wanted to 19 talk to her about dropping the case, and I told her not to 20 talk to you about that." And, you know, let me tell you, 21 she knows everything that's going on in this case and -- 22 Q But you're past where we need to go. That's for 23 another time, for another question. 24 A Okay. Sorry. 25 Okay. So then when that happened, then I said, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 177 1 you know, these people -- I mean, Mr. Dandar and 2 Ms. Liebreich do not care what happens to Bob Minton or me. 3 And -- and -- and I said that to Bob Minton. And I said, 4 "You have got -- we have got to distance ourself from this 5 case in every possible way. I've got to tell Jesse to 6 withdraw as an expert witness; you have got to stop giving 7 him any more money. I'm withdrawing as a witness. We have 8 to -- we have to withdraw in every way we possibly can to -- 9 so that the court will stop letting Scientology depose us 10 and get discovery of us." 11 And so -- and so Mr. Minton and I called Jesse 12 Prince and told him that he had to withdraw as an expert 13 witness immediately. That day. And he did. 14 Q This was the same day as you made the phone call 15 to Ms. Liebreich? 16 A The next day. The next day, because I called her 17 at night. And then Mr. Minton and I talked about this into 18 the night, trying to figure out what to do. 19 And it -- you know, it still wasn't an option that 20 we were going to come in to court and start recanting. It 21 just wasn't. 22 It just wasn't. 23 We were going to try to distance ourselves from it 24 so that we could get protection so that it could move 25 forward without hurting us. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 178 1 And so then -- 2 THE COURT: Feel free to step into the 3 question, if you want, but it seems like she's 4 giving a narrative that goes to the issue, so -- 5 MR. FUGATE: Better than I asking questions, 6 your Honor. 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q Okay. 9 A So then Mr. Dandar decided to file a motion for 10 severe sanctions against Scientology for -- because his 11 expert witnesses had had to withdraw, because he was in such 12 fear of Scientology. 13 Well, so then he has Mr. Prince -- he -- he draws 14 up an affidavit from Mr. Prince which basically summarizes 15 his trial that he had just -- the criminal trial that 16 Mr. Prince had just gone through for drugs. And basically 17 Mr. Dandar did a motion that, you know, described that whole 18 thing and that Scientology was setting up as expert. And so 19 because of that Mr. Prince withdrew in fear of more 20 harassment, stuff like that. 21 Well, Mr. Prince withdrew because Mr. Minton and I 22 told him to. 23 MR. LIROT: Objection. This is all -- she's 24 not competent for anything why Mr. Prince withdrew. 25 THE COURT: Well, she's competent to say what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 179 1 she told Mr. Prince, and then we'll hear from 2 Mr. Prince, I guess. 3 BY THE COURT: 4 Q What did you tell Mr. Prince as far as -- 5 A I said, "Jesse, you've got to withdraw it, you've 6 got to resign from this case immediately. You know, you've 7 got to write a letter to Ken telling him that you're 8 withdrawing as an expert witness right away." Well, you 9 know -- okay -- 10 Q And then you said that this affidavit -- did you 11 see the affidavit -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- that Mr. Prince signed? 14 A After he signed it, he brought it in and showed it 15 to me and -- 16 Q When was that? And where? 17 A In my office in the LMT -- 18 Q Okay. 19 A You know, it must have been in September. Because 20 all of these things happened in pretty rapid succession by 21 now. 22 And -- I can't remember what else I was going to 23 say about that, but in any case -- 24 THE COURT: You can stop if you want and you 25 can go on to whatever question you want. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 180 1 The -- I don't want the record to suggest that 2 this witness knows what the motion for severe 3 sanctions is all about. Quite frankly, that's not 4 how I read the motion for severe sanctions. 5 It was because of what Mr. Dandar alleged was 6 wrongdoing on the part of the church as it pertained 7 to Mr. Prince. And my -- my order, which has yet to 8 be signed, that -- because we can't seem to agree on 9 the order because I was, quite frankly, trying to 10 make it fairly to keep the peace -- was because I 11 had found that the church had -- had acted 12 improperly in that criminal episode against 13 Mr. Prince. That's the order regarding severe 14 sanctions that I mean to sign when I can get around 15 it to. 16 That was what they said. As far as Mr. Prince 17 and his -- his reason for not being a witness, I 18 never bought it. Didn't buy it at that hearing, 19 don't buy it to this day. I think that if 20 Mr. Dandar wants to use Mr. Prince as a witness in 21 this case, he'll testify gladly. 22 I've said it before, I'll say it again: If 23 he -- if he can stand the baggage when this case 24 goes to trial -- by that I mean the lawyer -- 25 whoever the lawyer might be for the case, well, I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 181 1 believe, Mr. Prince will be here with bells on. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the significance of it is, 3 as far as I'm concerned, not direct -- 4 THE COURT: That's not important. It certainly 5 isn't important in front of this witness. You can 6 tell me at the close of the case. 7 I just didn't want the record to suggest that 8 whatever this witness thinks about anything is 9 necessarily what it was or what was presented to 10 this court. She wasn't here. She doesn't know. 11 She doesn't know what argument was made. She 12 certainly doesn't know about my order, which hasn't 13 been signed yet. So, you know. 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Well, what -- did you direct -- did you and 17 Mr. Minton direct Mr. Prince to no longer be an expert 18 witness for Mr. Dandar? 19 A Yes. We ordered him to resign immediately. 20 Q And was he still being paid by funds from either 21 Mr. Minton or LMT at this point in history? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did he tell you that he had withdrawn as an 24 expert witness? 25 A Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 182 1 Q And did you -- when I say you, LMT or Mr. Minton, 2 continue to pay him? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And did until when? 5 A Well, the last time he got paid was a check from 6 me on April 4th of this year. 7 Q And so he had showed -- all you're saying is he 8 showed you an affidavit saying he was withdrawing for a 9 different reason, and you didn't believe -- I take it you 10 didn't believe that reason to be true. 11 A No. That's not what happened. 12 Q Okay. What happened? 13 A He showed me an affidavit which detailed his 14 criminal trial. And the thing that was upsetting about the 15 affidavit was that all through his criminal trial he'd never 16 admitted to drug use, but now with Mr. Dandar having him 17 sign an affidavit in which he admits drug use -- you know, 18 and he didn't get found not guilty in that criminal trial; 19 he got null-prossed. 20 And so Mr. Minton and I had a fit that he'd signed 21 this thing. 22 THE COURT: What happened? Was that a hung 23 jury? 24 THE WITNESS: It was a hung jury. 25 MR. FUGATE: Hung jury. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 183 1 THE COURT: And they elected to drop it. 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It was a mistrial. 3 MR. FUGATE: That's what I understand. 4 THE COURT: I'd forgotten. 5 A So, you know, "Really, Jesse, are you nuts? 6 You've just totally exposed yourself to reprosecution on 7 this thing if somebody decides that's what they want to do." 8 And so Jesse had a fit and he's all, "Oh, my God. I didn't 9 realize that. That's terrible. We have to go talk to Denis 10 DeVlaming," you know, and this whole thing. 11 That's what the affidavit was about. It was 12 about, you know, this whole, you know, thing of his drugs. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q But it also said something about his withdrawing 15 because he was fearful of harassment and no longer wanted to 16 be an expert for Mr. Dandar. Did you know that to be the 17 case? 18 MR. LIROT: Leading question, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 MR. FUGATE: Let's move on, Judge, so we can -- 21 THE COURT: Good. Thank you. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Ms. -- 24 THE COURT: The part of the affidavit that 25 Mr. Prince signed that dealt with what -- what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 184 1 Mr. Prince alleged had happened to him in his 2 criminal trial as far as impropriety on the part of 3 the church, is that the part you're saying is false 4 or is what you're saying is false is that part where 5 he stated under oath why he wanted to withdraw as a 6 witness because he was afraid? 7 THE WITNESS: Right. That part. 8 THE COURT: That part? 9 THE WITNESS: That part. 10 THE COURT: The first part, you're not 11 suggesting was false. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q At or about this same time frame that this 17 affidavit by Mr. Prince was signed, had Mr. Minton, to your 18 knowledge, communicated to Mr. Dandar that he wasn't going 19 to fund him anymore? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And did there come a time in that -- I think if 22 I'm correct, where I think we are is August, September of 23 2001 -- did there come a time after that where you know that 24 Mr. Minton gave additional funding to Mr. Dandar? 25 A Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 185 1 Q Can you tell us about that? 2 A Can -- I just want to mention one thing that 3 happened in October with Judge Baird that led up to this. 4 Q All right. 5 A The first time that Mr. Minton started to get that 6 his commitment to the case began to crack, I suppose would 7 be the way to put it, was in October of 2001 when Judge 8 Baird almost put him in jail. And he was evading discovery 9 and trying everything he could think of to keep from having 10 to answer these questions in deposition about these checks 11 and all this stuff. And you know, to the point where at one 12 point he refused to even go to Florida to testify in the 13 deposition. And I went into that hearing -- 14 THE COURT: I really don't think we have to go 15 here. No, you can't go there. You're going to 16 answer his question. Move to your question. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Well, was there a time -- and this will get to the 20 next question -- was there a time when Mr. Minton took the 21 Fifth Amendment or invoked the Fifth Amendment privilege in 22 some deposition or a deposition? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And was there ever a discussion about the 25 questions that he had invoked the Fifth Amendment on, with Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 186 1 Mr. Dandar, that you were present? 2 A Yes. With regard to the checks. 3 Q Can you tell us about that? When and where was 4 it? 5 A We were in New Hampshire. 6 Q And approximately when was it? 7 A As I recall. 8 Sometime in the fall of 2001. Perhaps September. 9 Early October. I don't remember when his deposition was 10 exactly. 11 Q And what was the discussion? 12 A Mr. Minton was saying -- 13 MR. LIROT: Who was the discussion with? 14 THE COURT: Mr. Minton -- 15 THE WITNESS: Mr. -- 16 THE COURT: And Mr. Dandar, I think she -- 17 I'm sorry. Maybe she didn't say. Who was the 18 discussion with? 19 MR. FUGATE: I thought she did, but -- 20 THE COURT: I thought she did. 21 MR. FUGATE: -- who was the discussion with? 22 THE WITNESS: It was with the three of us. I 23 was in the room with Mr. Minton. 24 EXAMINATION 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 187 1 BY THE COURT: 2 Q And all you said was the Fifth Amendment regarding 3 the checks. I don't know what checks we're talking about? 4 What checks? 5 A There were two checks that Mr. Minton gave to 6 Mr. Dandar. 7 Q The $500,000 check and the 250 -- 8 A I'm sorry, there was one check at that time. 9 Q One check. Okay. 10 A It was the 500,000. 11 Q So I know what check you're talking about now. 12 A Yeah. 13 And you know, Mr. Dandar said, "Just concentrate 14 on the checks you wrote. Just concentrate on the checks you 15 wrote." 16 Well, I understood that to mean and Mr. Minton 17 understood that to mean that -- 18 Q Don't tell us what Mr. Minton understood it to 19 mean. You can tell us what you understood it to mean and 20 anything he may have said, but you can't get inside his 21 head. 22 A Okay. I understood it to mean that he was not to 23 talk about that $500,000 check. So Mr. Minton went into the 24 deposition and pled the Fifth Amendment on those questions 25 and a number of other questions. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 188 1 Q Who told him to do that, if you know? If you 2 know. If you don't know, you don't know. 3 A Well, I believe it was a decision between 4 Mr. Dandar and Mr. Merritt, but I don't know for sure. 5 Q Okay. Well, you seem to be normally around 6 Mr. Minton. 7 A Right. 8 Q Did Mr. Minton get a phone call from someone or -- 9 or what? I mean -- 10 A Well -- 11 Q Were you party to that -- privy to this 12 conversation? 13 A He spoke on the phone with Mr. Dandar and 14 Mr. Merrett. 15 MR. FUGATE: He being Mr. Minton? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 About what by now was a pretty serious effort 18 to avoid answering these questions. 19 BY THE COURT: 20 Q Why -- okay. Tell me this: We just talked about 21 how foolish it was to -- I hope you realize now how foolish 22 it was -- 23 A Yes, your Honor, I do. 24 Q -- to try to hide this agreement and try to hide 25 whatever this -- if it was legitimate, if -- if LMT was Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 189 1 legitimate -- I don't know if it was or not. You said it 2 was -- but if it was and if there was nothing wrong with the 3 agreement, how silly it was to tell a bunch of lies about 4 that. 5 What's the deal with the checks? What's -- why is 6 somebody going to take the Fifth Amendment over a check? 7 Why is somebody not going to talk about a check? What in 8 Mr. Minton's mind or your mind, when you and he talked, was 9 wrong with that? 10 A With the check? 11 Q Where you lie about it, take the Fifth Amendment. 12 Fifth Amendment says I'm going not going to incriminate 13 myself. What was the problem with him writing a check to 14 Mr. Dandar for $500,000? 15 A Well, in fact, there wasn't anything wrong with 16 it. But Mr. Dandar was trying to downplay -- this is my 17 understanding -- two things -- 18 Q Well, were you there when Mr. Dandar talked to 19 Mr. Minton about it? 20 A Yes. But not -- but this is my understanding -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- this isn't what he said. 23 Q Well, that may -- we better hear what he said. 24 A What he said was, "Just testify about the checks 25 you wrote." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 190 1 Q Okay. Now, I guess what I'm asking you now, then, 2 is, why would anybody think there's something wrong with it? 3 Criminal. Criminal. Fifth Amendment, we think of as 4 somebody saying, "I don't want to incriminate myself." 5 A Well, I can tell you that Mr. Dandar told 6 Mr. Minton that he hadn't told the court about it and so 7 Mr. Minton shouldn't tell the court about it either. He had 8 also -- he also told Mr. Minton that he hadn't told his 9 trial team about this money and that he was telling his 10 trial team that he was using money out of his retirement 11 fund to fund the case and that he didn't want them to know 12 that he was getting this money from Mr. Minton. 13 Q So Mr. Minton was willing to lie to a court of law 14 to keep Mr. Dandar's employees from finding out about a 15 check? 16 A No. No. But -- 17 Q Does Mr. Minton care that little for the truth? 18 A No. No. But again, he was trying to protect 19 Mr. Dandar; he was trying to protect the case. It took 20 quite an enormous amount of pressure being put on him and me 21 for us to make the decision to break with the critic 22 community and come forward and tell the truth. It took an 23 enormous, enormous amount of pressure on us to -- to -- 24 Q Pressure brought on you by whom? 25 A By the courts, by -- by the courts. You know, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 191 1 this is why I was bringing up this thing about Judge Baird 2 in October. Because Mr. Minton was so distraught about the 3 possibility that Judge Baird was going to put him in jail 4 for contempt for all of his discovery abuse that he began to 5 crack about this whole situation. And so that by December, 6 when Mr. Dandar again approached him for more funding and -- 7 you know, really Mr. Minton and I, by that time, were 8 basically staying in his house in New Hampshire and never 9 going out. You know, we were so -- we were in such a state 10 of fear about this situation that we had now gotten 11 ourselves into. 12 And also all of the attacks that were happening 13 from the critics because of Mr. Minton no longer funding the 14 wrongful death case. 15 Q But he was funding the wrongful death case. 16 A No. He had said in -- he had informed Mr. Dandar 17 in August or September that he was no longer going to fund 18 the case. And Mr. Dandar -- 19 MR. FUGATE: Of 2001? 20 THE WITNESS: Of 2001. I'm sorry. 21 A And Mr. Dandar had these people on the Internet 22 that he was having post -- 23 MR. LIROT: Objection. Foundation. 24 A This is my -- this was his belief and my belief. 25 THE COURT: All right. Then I'll sustain. If Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 192 1 you don't know that, then you can't -- 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 A So anyway, Judge Baird -- I mean, it was -- you 4 know, he had to post a $20,000 bond. Sandy Rosen was the 5 attorney who was trying to -- everything he could to get the 6 judge to put him in jail for coercive, whatever, 7 incarceration. And it was only, you know, by the skin of 8 his teeth that he avoided sitting in jail for a week before 9 the deposition went forward. 10 Well -- so then Mr. Dandar in December started 11 calling and, you know, saying, "Look --" 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q December of -- 14 A Of 2001. Just now. 15 Q Okay. 16 A And started saying, you know, "I need more money, 17 you need to help, you've just got to help he me out, this 18 kind of stuff." And I was up in New Hampshire with 19 Mr. Minton, and I was saying, "Don't you dare give him any 20 more money. Don't even think about it. Do not give him 21 another penny." And Mr. Minton was telling Mr. Dandar, you 22 know, "No, I can't do it," whatever. 23 Now we're going into January. Mr. Dandar wants 24 Mr. Minton to meet him. And I know about this because I was 25 there and I heard these conversations. He wants him to meet Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 193 1 him in Nashville. He wants him to meet him in the Cayman 2 Islands. You know, "Please, please." He's e-mailing him. 3 He's -- and I saw the e-mails. "Please, you know -- please, 4 you can't let me down. You know, you've got to come through 5 for the case." You know, this kind of thing. All caps, you 6 know. E-mail all caps. 7 And Bob is like, "Oh, God, you know, this is 8 terrible." And I'm saying, you know, "Don't give him any 9 more money. He doesn't care what's going to happen to you. 10 He's only trying to get more money, you know, for his own 11 reasons." And I was totally -- had a break with Mr. Dandar 12 by that time. 13 And so finally, Mr. Minton said, you know, if you 14 want to come up to see me at my house in New Hampshire, you 15 can. And that's when -- 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Did -- did Mr. Dandar come up to New Hampshire? 19 A Yes, he did. 20 Q When was that? 21 A I think it was the last weekend -- weekend in 22 February, and he brought Dr. Garko with him. 23 Q What happened at that meeting? 24 A The first thing -- pretty much the first thing 25 that happened was Mr. Minton absolutely broke down and got Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 194 1 hysterical. He was crying. You know, he was very, very, 2 very distraught about feeling that he couldn't trust -- 3 sorry, it's making me shiver -- that he couldn't trust 4 Mr. Dandar; he couldn't trust Dell Liebreich; he couldn't 5 trust the estate. That he felt like he was being used. 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q This is February of 2002? 9 A Yeah. Just now. 10 That he felt that Mr. Dandar had this group of 11 people that were -- that had launched a smear campaign 12 against him on the Internet. 13 Your Honor, you probably don't frequent the 14 Internet very much, but -- 15 Q I'm petrified to even think about looking on one 16 of these here now Internet. I might like to look just to 17 see, but I'm afraid somebody might turn it into something 18 suspicious in this case. So I have never looked. I'd like 19 to. If the lawyers give me permission, I wouldn't mind 20 fishing around and seeing what in the world's out there, but 21 I'm afraid somebody's -- 22 Q You can't even -- 23 Q -- going to make it -- 24 A You couldn't even believe it. You couldn't 25 believe what you'd see. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 195 1 This newsgroup, ARS -- 2 MR. LIROT: Just listening. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 THE COURT: Sit down, Counselor. If you've got 5 an objection -- if you don't, sit down. 6 A This newsgroup, alt.religion.scientology, is a 7 place -- it's where Mr. Minton first found out about 8 Scientology. You know, he frequents it all the time. It's, 9 you know, for the critics -- 10 BY THE COURT: 11 Q What is it? 12 A It's a newsgroup. It's sort of like a bulletin 13 board. It's sort of like an electronic bulletin board. 14 People go in there and post messages. And then somebody can 15 go in and post a response to that message and then somebody 16 else can and then somebody else can and then you end up 17 with, you know, sometimes a hundred or more, basically, 18 conversations going on about a subject. 19 And you know, I have asked Mr. Minton, so many 20 times, "Please, stop looking at this stuff." But you know, 21 he's -- he's an Internet person. And you know, all these 22 critics go on this thing and, you know, he wants to see what 23 they're saying. 24 So it's a very good place to go to attack him, if 25 you want to upset him. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 196 1 And so from the time that Mr. Minton informed 2 Mr. Dandar that he was longer in the wrongful death case, 3 that was in September, I think, of 2001, a campaign was 4 launched on this newsgroup that was saying very, very 5 hurtful things about Mr. Minton, about me, about the LMT, 6 you know, about how -- 7 Q Like what? I mean, a lot of money had been given. 8 What was -- what was being said? 9 A You know -- God, you'd have to read these things 10 to believe it. That, you know, Mr. Minton was working for 11 Scientology all along; that he was selling everybody out 12 from the very beginning; that I was an agent for 13 Scientology; that, you know, we were betraying everybody; 14 that the Lisa McPherson case was the most important thing in 15 the world and that we were doing everything we could to 16 destroy the case now. And you know, this may not sound like 17 terrible things to you, but after what Mr. Minton had done 18 for the case, it was very hurtful to him. Particularly to 19 feel that Mr. Minton -- Mr. Dandar was encouraging -- at 20 least encouraging this. 21 Q But you have no way of knowing that. 22 A Yes, we did. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Yes, we did. 25 Q How was that? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 197 1 A Because the people who were writing these things 2 were posting that they were talking to Mr. Dandar. 3 Q What does that mean, posting? I don't understand 4 the Internet. 5 A Posting means you write a thing on your computer 6 and then you punch a button that says "send now" and it gets 7 posted. You know, like if you take a piece of paper and 8 post it on the bulletin board? You send it electronically 9 and it gets posted on this newsgroup. And then once it's 10 posted, everybody else all over the world, they log on -- 11 Q I mean, are they saying -- I guess what I'm asking 12 you is, you said, yes, we do know. Is that -- is that 13 because it was saying that -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- Ken Dandar says -- 16 A Yes. 17 Q Well, these -- these people that were saying these 18 awful things, surely you didn't -- didn't necessarily -- you 19 didn't believe anything else they were saying, why did you 20 believe that? 21 A It wasn't -- 22 Why do we believe that they were talking to Ken 23 Dandar? 24 Q Yeah. 25 A Just from the things that they were writing, it Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 198 1 looked like he really was giving them information and giving 2 this one woman permission to start a -- a -- a thing on -- 3 on the Internet to try to raise funds -- 4 Q Did he tell you he was that desperate to get more 5 money? 6 A Mm-hmm. 7 Q Did he tell you he was pretty desperate, that he 8 was running out of money? 9 A Oh, yes. 10 Q And he wasn't going to be able to continue the 11 case without it? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So you really felt he was desperate? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I think he really was. 17 So anyway, I was describing this conversation when 18 they came up to New Hampshire. 19 Q So what you had said, I think, is that Mr. Minton 20 broke down. 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you said he couldn't trust anybody and -- 23 A No. He said he couldn't trust -- 24 Q -- he couldn't trust Ken and couldn't trust 25 Ms -- trust Ms. Liebreich. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 199 1 A Yeah. And then -- sorry -- and then there were a 2 lot of conversations that were had. I had a very lengthy 3 conversation with Mr. Dandar, just the two of us, about some 4 of the attacks that have happened against me, against 5 Mr. Minton -- 6 Q What attack? I mean, I don't know what -- I don't 7 know what you're talking about. 8 A Smear campaign -- 9 Q On the Internet again? 10 A -- whispering campaign. 11 On the Internet and -- within the critic community 12 there, you know, I -- you know, I felt that there had been a 13 fairly concerted effort to drive a wedge between me and 14 other critics of Scientology, you know, sort of basically 15 to -- to isolate us. 16 Q What -- at this point in time -- 17 A From our friends. 18 Q -- you hadn't come forward and recanted. You'd 19 lied for the case. Mr. Minton had provided an inordinate 20 amount of money, more money that I can imagine. I mean, why 21 in the world would -- I mean, why would Mr. Dandar be 22 suggesting anything about this when everything you had done, 23 as you've just testified here, was at his request? And plus 24 a lot of money to boot. 25 A But -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 200 1 Q I mean, it doesn't make any sense. Why would you 2 think this? 3 A Why would I think what? 4 Q That Mr. Dandar was out trying to drive a edge 5 between the critics and you. 6 A Well, in fact, your Honor, it turned out to be the 7 truth, and he said so at -- in New Hampshire to us. 8 Q Well, why? Was it 'cause there was not enough -- 9 more money? 10 A Because he was trying to put -- I mean, this is my 11 belief. That -- 12 Q What did he say? 13 A -- he was trying to put pressure on Bob to 14 continue funding the case, and that he knew how important it 15 was to Bob to be well thought of in the critic community. 16 And he knew how bad it would make Bob feel that the whole 17 critic community was turning against him because he was 18 stopping the funding. 19 Q So in your mind the whole thing then, this whole 20 thing being done by Mr. Dandar, was wrapped around money -- 21 A Yes. 22 Q -- it wasn't as if you haven't -- you, Mr. Minton, 23 hadn't done plenty to help -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q -- to the tune of lying for him, as your testimony Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 201 1 is, to the tune of giving a whole slew of money. So you 2 think all this happened because Mr. Dandar, gee, he'd only 3 had 1.8 million at that time? 4 MR. FUGATE: I think it's 1.8-50 -- 5 THE COURT: -- 8-something. 6 MR. FUGATE: Yeah. 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q And he needed more. 9 A That's right. 10 So Mr. Dandar said, "Listen, I will get them to 11 stop this" -- 12 Q Who is -- who is they? I'll get them? 13 A These people that he had~-- 14 Q The Internet people. 15 A Yeah, the Internet people -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- that were posting this stuff. And he said, 18 "I'll get them to stop." I mean -- and in fact, later he 19 called -- he called to speak to Mr. Minton, but he was 20 asleep and I spoke to him. And he called to say, "Listen, 21 these people, the people that were doing all this posting 22 and everything, said that they'll stop doing it if you guys 23 will take a certain thing off of our Web site." You know 24 what a Web site is? 25 Q Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know if I do or not, but -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 202 1 A Well, it's just a place where people can go to get 2 information. 3 Q Right. What is "our Web site," though? 4 A The LMT Web site. 5 Q Okay. 6 A The LMT Web site. "If you guys will take this 7 stuff off of your Web site that they don't like." Well, I 8 wasn't sure that Mr. Minton would agree to do that, if I 9 asked him, so I made a unilateral decision to take it off -- 10 to have it taken off myself without asking him that. 11 We had it taken off and -- you couldn't believe 12 how instantly the criticism and the attacks stopped on the 13 Internet. 14 Q What Web site is this? The LMT Web site? 15 A We took some information off of our LMT Web 16 site -- 17 Q What information? 18 A It was some little snippets of this movie, The 19 Profit -- I don't know. 20 Q You mean you could actually watch some little 21 snippets? 22 A Like a minute. I think there were five one-minute 23 snippets of the movie. 24 Q Okay. 25 A And these people were really mad about those Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 203 1 snippets being up on the Web site. 2 Q Why? These are -- I don't even know who's who. 3 Are these the anti-Scientologists -- 4 A Yeah. 5 Q -- or the pro-Scientologists? 6 A The anti-Scientologists. 7 Q The anti-Scientologists. 8 A Listen, your Honor, the anti-Scientologists have 9 been angrier at us and more threatening at us and more 10 intimidating of us than Scientology ever even thought of 11 being. I'm not kidding. That's how we feel. 12 Q Okay. 13 A So you know, if we -- 14 Q There are those, you know, that might say the same 15 thing about Mr. Minton? 16 A About what? 17 Q About Mr. Minton. That he might -- that the -- he 18 was part of this antigroup, right? 19 A Yes. 20 Q They may say that he was just as dangerous anti as 21 the Scientologists were pro. 22 A You know, your Honor, the way I look at it now is, 23 this is -- you know, people have turned this whole thing 24 into a holy war, and both sides, you know, are dug in to 25 their perspective. And you know, what's needed in this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 204 1 whole thing is dialogue. That's how I feel about it. 2 Q Maybe what's needed is resolution. 3 A Resolution would be wonderful. But dialogue could 4 perhaps start that path. 5 In any case, at the end of that -- at tend of that 6 weekend Mr. Dandar -- when Mr. Minton broke down on 7 Saturday, I think Mr. Dandar and Dr. Garko both realized 8 that Mr. Minton was seriously, seriously distraught about 9 the situation. And what Mr. Dandar did was, on Sunday 10 morning before they left, he got out the questions that you 11 had ordered Mr. Minton to answer that he had previously put 12 the Fifth Amendment to. He got out those questions and he 13 started coaching Mr. Minton on how to answer the questions. 14 Q Okay. 15 A And -- 16 Q Go ahead. 17 A And this was in my presence. I saw this myself. 18 He was coaching Mr. Minton to answer the questions 19 untruthfully. 20 Q Like what? Which ones? 21 A Well, this is where this fat man thing came up. 22 For example -- 23 (There was an interruption in the proceedings.) 24 THE COURT: I'm not going to have it. 25 Mr. Bailiff, you go out there and you find out if Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 205 1 anybody else has got a phone on. Talk to them one 2 at a time. Next person whose phone goes off in this 3 courtroom is going to be barred permanently. I'm 4 not going to have it. If you've got a cell phone 5 out there, turn it off. 6 Go on ahead. 7 THE WITNESS: What was I saying? 8 MR. FUGATE: I don't even remember. That was 9 sort of an interesting tune. 10 I think you were talking about -- 11 THE COURT: It was, and that's why -- it's very 12 disconcerting, because out of the clear blue you 13 start thinking da-da, da-da, da-da-da-da-da-da. 14 MR. FUGATE: She was talking about -- I know 15 what she was talking about. She was talking 16 about -- 17 You were talking about Mr. Dandar -- 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, coaching. 19 MR. FUGATE: Going through the questions. 20 THE WITNESS: The coaching. Oh, yeah. And you 21 wanted to know an example. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 THE WITNESS: And I said, "This is where the 24 fat man came up." 25 THE COURT: Right. The fat man came up. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 206 1 BY THE COURT: 2 Q I only care about coaching, I suppose, on issues 3 that have been brought to my attention that may be relevant 4 to what I'm doing. That would be as to the money and as to 5 the agreement and as to -- I don't know, you can -- I know 6 the money and the agreement. If there's something else, you 7 can raise it. 8 A The money. 9 Q The money meaning the two checks, that there was 10 nothing wrong with it. 11 A There were -- 12 Q At that time was there two checks? 13 A Well, there weren't two checks yet. There 14 weren't -- 15 Q Okay. One check. 16 A -- two checks until a couple days later. But 17 there was -- there were questions that were going to that 18 issue, and then there were also questions that were going to 19 the issue of funds to the LMT. 20 Q Okay. Let's talk about the check. And you said 21 he told him how to handle it. What did he tell him to say? 22 A Well, he said, "You only have to concern yourself 23 with the checks you've written, Bob. You know, what's the 24 problem here? You only have to concern yourself with the 25 checks you've written." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 207 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q What did you understand that to mean? 5 A Don't talk about that other $500,000 check because 6 you didn't write it. You didn't actually write the check. 7 Q And what did you understand "you didn't actually 8 write it" to mean? 9 THE COURT: I've never had this kind of money. 10 How does one get somebody to send $500,000 without 11 the -- 12 THE WITNESS: It was a bank -- it was a bank 13 check. 14 THE COURT: Well, you just pick up the phone, 15 call your bank, say, "Send $500,00"0? Is that how 16 it works? I don't know. I'm not rich. 17 THE WITNESS: It seems -- it seems to be 18 something like that. 19 THE COURT: Really? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q So in -- 23 THE COURT: How do they know it's the right 24 person on the telephone? 25 MR. WEINBERG: It's a little more than that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 208 1 THE COURT: I would hope so. Otherwise give me 2 the number. 3 MR. FUGATE: I can't help you 'cause -- 4 THE WITNESS: I don't really know. 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q So he said, "You only have to concern yourself 8 with the checks you've written"? 9 A Yes, your honor. 10 Q Okay. 11 A And there was another thing about the fat man, but 12 that doesn't concern that particular check, so -- 13 Q Okay. 14 A In any case, it was my understanding that 15 Mr. Dandar now understood how distraught Mr. Minton was 16 about having to -- about putting himself in danger by 17 perjury, and that Mr. Dandar was now helping him ease his 18 concerns by helping him -- by coaching him about how to 19 answer the questions so that he wouldn't be caught, I guess. 20 So then they left -- 21 Q They being? 22 A Mr. Dandar and Dr. Garko. And I said, "Don't even 23 think the thought of giving him any more money. I hope 24 you're not." And Mr. Minton said, "Well, you know, I just 25 kind of feel like I'm in so deep now that it's really not Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 209 1 going to make any difference at this point." 2 Because you know, Mr. Dandar had really, really 3 begged him to give him enough money to get him through the 4 trial. And he had really appealed to Mr. Minton's 5 commitment to this case; commitment to, you know, his 6 anti-Scientology work. You know, "you've come this far, you 7 know, don't -- you know, please help me, you know, get this 8 thing through to the end." You know, that kind of thing. 9 And so, you know, Mr. Dandar made several phone 10 calls to Mr. Minton; you know, "Have you written it? Is it 11 coming?" I found out from Mr. Minton that he had, in fact, 12 written another check -- I mean -- I'm sorry -- not written 13 another check, but caused another check to be issued. 14 Q One of those magical phone calls? 15 A One of those phone calls. 16 Q Right. 17 A You know, I don't have -- 18 Q That none of us knows how to do. 19 A But -- but -- 20 Q I mean, I know this is true, this is how it 21 happens, I just don't really -- we'll ask Mr. Minton when he 22 comes in. I mean, there must be a code or something. I 23 mean, it's late in the day. There's just got to be a code. 24 Just got to be able to call and give a number. 25 MR. WEINBERG: He'd probably like to tell you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 210 1 that off the record. 2 THE COURT: I wasn't going to ask him that, but 3 there's got to be some things that one goes through. 4 Go ahead. I'm sorry. We'll probably stop at 5 the end of your case 'cause I just really have a 6 huge headache. 7 So if you could -- 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm -- 9 THE COURT: Not you, him. He's -- if you could 10 get done with the direct -- 11 MR. FUGATE: I'll try to shut up, Judge -- 12 THE COURT: -- of the witness that we were 13 going to finish today. 14 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 15 A So he sent the check. 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q All right. And was there any more discussion, to 19 your knowledge, about that check to Mr. Minton -- to your 20 knowledge, with Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar about whether that 21 should be reviewed -- that check? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q And what was that? 24 A Well, then -- I mean, you know, this was the 25 beginning of March, and meanwhile, you remember that I'm Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 211 1 having Mr. Howie call and initiate settlement talks with 2 Scientology. So now -- 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY THE COURT: 5 Q You're trying to negotiate a settlement with 6 Scientology. In the meantime -- 7 A And meanwhile, Mr. Minton is continuing -- 8 Q -- putting out a quarter of a million bucks -- 9 A Right. 10 Q -- to try to help -- 11 A I'm saying, "Jeesh, don't --" 12 Q Tough to negotiate a settlement like that. 13 A Don't -- how are we going to settle it if you're 14 continuing to fund the case? Exactly. 15 And so Mr. Minton is being a little bit sheepish 16 about that. And then we get word from Mr. Howie that, you 17 know, these two contempt hearings are going forward in -- 18 you know, in the beginning of April, in which Mr. Minton is 19 going to be put in jail for contempt either by Judge 20 Schaeffer or by Judge Baird. 21 Q Or both. 22 A Or by both. 23 And so -- 24 Q Would it please you to know that I've never put 25 anybody in jail for contempt in 21 years? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 212 1 A You haven't? Because your Honor, you said on the 2 record one time that you'd be perfectly happy to put 3 somebody in jail for six years -- 4 Q Well, I don't know if I said for six years, but I 5 have always said that, and that's what I use to get results, 6 but -- 7 A I'll tell you something. We believed you. And 8 that was a lot of the reason why -- 9 Q The maximum time that anybody can be put in jail 10 for criminal contempt is five months and 29 days. 11 A Is that right? 12 Q That is right. So that is the maximum sentence, 13 okay. So if anybody ever told you differently, that's it. 14 A Well, I -- 15 Q And I guess I did put one defendant in jail once 16 for that amount of time. I couldn't even remember what it 17 was. He started swearing at me in court. And we had -- he 18 was on the floor, swearing at me. He called me every rotten 19 name in the book. And finally called me a woman. I mean, 20 that was the -- bailiff arrest him -- he was calling F -- 21 all in all I figured I had to do something. I didn't know 22 what it was because I'd never used this contempt power that 23 I had. And I did it very poorly, I might add. But I tried 24 to get a contempt hearing going so that the next several 25 people appearing wouldn't think that was good procedure. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 213 1 I threaten a lot. I've never held anybody in 2 contempt except him. 3 A Well, we believed you. 4 Q I don't hesitate -- I wouldn't hesitate to use it. 5 I mean, I'm sure your lawyer or somebody said I'm not happy 6 with the fact that you and Mr. Minton have admitted that you 7 committed perjury. I'm sitting here today, you know? I'm 8 sitting here today, it's quarter to 6 on a Friday afternoon, 9 trying to buy a new house. I'm absolutely beat. I'm 10 sitting up nights reading this that you see. And I'm not 11 saying that it's just you all. But certainly I know it's 12 you all because you said it is. 13 Now, you know, I don't know what you thought 14 before, but I mean, we're going to have to come to some -- 15 some day there's going to be a day of reckoning. I'm not 16 saying I'm going to put you in jail. Please don't think I'm 17 threatening you. Wouldn't do that to you. But you just 18 don't get to commit perjury in any judge's court. Say 19 you've committed perjury and then expect the judge to say, 20 "Well, thanks a lot for coming in." 21 I mean, do you understand what's going on here? 22 What you've caused, helped to cause? And I'm not saying 23 it's just you. Do you understand that you've created some 24 chaos here? 25 A Your Honor, I understand it very well. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 214 1 THE COURT: Okay. Let's try to get through the 2 direct, if we can. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 THE COURT: And as I said, I don't mean to be 5 threatening. Now that you know I've never held 6 anybody in contempt in 21 years. I used to teach 7 it. I used to have a wonderful time teaching it to 8 new judges. And I'd always tell them, "Don't do 9 it." If you have to hold somebody in contempt you 10 don't have control of your courtroom. So you know, 11 I thought I had pretty good control of my courtroom 12 so I didn't have to use it. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q My question was -- 16 THE COURT: Don't be afraid just because you've 17 heard from somebody that I said that. I mean, as I 18 said, I'm very frustrated. I'm very frustrated that 19 we're -- we're having to go through this. We're 20 going to go through it Monday. We're going to go 21 through it Tuesday. And I've got a couple motions 22 they want me to hear about the issues in the case. 23 And I'm having to deal with all this. 24 So it is frustrating and -- 25 THE WITNESS: At best. At best. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 215 1 THE COURT: All right. If I were you, I would 2 never do it again. 3 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I promise I never 4 will. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q All right. My question was, was there any other 7 discussion, to your knowledge, between Mr. Minton, 8 Mr. Dandar about whether or not to reveal the last $250,000 9 payment or check? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. And what was that? 12 A Mr. Minton had by now gotten in touch with his 13 counsel, not only in Florida but also in Boston. And he was 14 now aware that he was going to have to tell the truth about 15 these checks. 16 Q And the "he" is -- 17 A Mr. Minton. 18 Q Okay. 19 A And he told Mr. Dandar that -- 20 Q He, Mr. Minton? 21 A -- in a phone conversation. 22 Q He, Mr. Minton, told -- 23 A Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar that he was going to 24 have to tell the truth about the checks. And Mr. Dandar got 25 very distraught about that. And said, "Bob, you know, you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 216 1 only have to testify about the checks you've written. You 2 don't have to bring that up." 3 THE COURT: When was this, ma'am, again? 4 THE WITNESS: Sometime in mid-March. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Of 2002? 7 A Yeah. And then we -- Mr. Minton and I had a 8 meeting in New York with Sandy Rosen, Mike Rinder and 9 Monique Yingling, who's another attorney for Scientology. 10 And we sat down with them, with Mr. Minton's Boston counsel, 11 Steve Jonas. 12 Q Steve -- 13 A Steven Jonas. 14 THE COURT: Boss? Did you say boss? 15 THE WITNESS: Boston. 16 THE COURT: Oh, Boston. 17 A Boston. 18 And Mr. Minton and I went into this meeting with 19 every intention of settling with Scientology and getting out 20 of this litigation altogether, in whatever way -- well, not 21 in whatever way, but by severing all ties. And we sat down 22 and we told them that -- 23 THE COURT: This is going to go on for a long 24 time, isn't it? 25 THE WITNESS: No. He's almost over. It's like Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 217 1 another two sentences, if you want me to hurry. 2 THE COURT: Oh. Are we on your affidavits, you 3 mean? 4 THE WITNESS: No. We're on the settlement 5 talks. 6 THE COURT: Oh. 7 THE WITNESS: And I'll make it fast. 8 THE COURT: I'm talking about your direct 9 testimony. I'd like to get through the direct. How 10 much longer is it? 11 MR. FUGATE: If she said two sentences, I'm 12 guessing two sentences, Judge. 13 THE COURT: I'm guessing two hours. Go on 14 ahead. 15 MR. FUGATE: I didn't say how long they were 16 going to be. 17 THE COURT: I know. 18 A Anyway, we told them that we wanted to walk away; 19 that we wanted -- Mr. Minton was going to stop funding; that 20 I was going to stop providing any declarations; that I would 21 withdraw my declarations that I already filed; that we 22 didn't want anything more to do with Scientology litigation 23 anymore and to please just let us walk away. 24 Well, much to our horror, what they said was 25 that -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 218 1 THE COURT: Who's they? Tell us -- let's say 2 who said what. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Rosen. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen. 5 A Mr. Rosen said that they would be more than happy 6 to sit down with us and talk settlement once we set the 7 record straight in the Florida cases. And we said, "What do 8 you mean?" And he said, "Well, we have reason to believe 9 that you have not been forthcoming in your testimony in 10 discovery in those cases. And before we'll talk to you 11 about settlement in any way, you're going to have to set 12 those records straight." 13 And that night Mr. Minton and I called Mr. Dandar 14 and -- 15 THE COURT: Do you remember what date this was? 16 THE WITNESS: I think it was -- 17 THE COURT: Day? 18 THE WITNESS: Maybe it was March 28th. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Are we still in the dep- -- 20 am I -- am I -- 21 MR. FUGATE: I think you've gone beyond now. I 22 think she's talking about why she -- 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 A And -- no. 'Cause I'm telling you about another 25 conversation that happened about the checks. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 219 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Actually, I did ask that, so -- 3 A Yeah. 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY THE COURT: 6 Q So you called Mr. Minton -- Mr. Dandar -- 7 A Mr. Dandar. 8 Q On March 28th. 9 A On March 28th, and told him that -- and Mr. Minton 10 told him that he was going to have to start telling the 11 truth about what had been going on. And -- 12 Q He, meaning Mr. Minton, told he, Mr. Dandar -- 13 A Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar -- 14 Q -- was going to have to start telling the truth. 15 A No. No. Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar that 16 Mr. Minton was going to have to start telling the truth. 17 Q I got you. 18 A And you know, it was sort of warning him, you 19 know, sort of letting him know that this was happening. 20 And -- and we had a little bit more of a 21 conversation on that night, but basically we ended it that 22 night by Mr. Dandar saying, "Look, let's get together in 23 Cleveland. I have to go to Cleveland for a heart --" 24 Q -- checkup. 25 A "Checkup. And let's meet there --" Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 220 1 Q I don't know if that's true or not. I'm just 2 trying to -- 3 A Yeah. Checkup. 4 Q Okay. 5 A Well, next night -- so then the next day we went 6 into the settlement talks again and -- and we said, "Listen, 7 you know, we'll get started on setting the record straight, 8 but we want you to put back -- push back these two contempt 9 hearings that are just about to come up next week." 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Continue the contempt hearings? 13 A We want you to continue those contempt hearings so 14 that, you know, Mr. Minton doesn't have that hanging over 15 his head while we're trying to sort this out. 16 Well, Mr. Rosen said, "We're not stopping 17 anything. You know, those things are going to go forward as 18 scheduled. You know, we'll be glad to arrange for -- you 19 know, to pick back up on the settlement talks when you've 20 set the record straight. But you know, you'll have an 21 opportunity to do that in these hearings down in Florida or, 22 you know, however you want to do it. But we aren't 23 continuing with the settlement talks until that happens and 24 we're not putting off anything." 25 Well, then we were really, really upset. And then Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 221 1 that night we called Mr. Dandar again. And that was the 2 famous phone conversation where Mr. Minton said, you know, 3 "You're going to have the blood of -- my blood and the blood 4 of my family on your hands if you -- if you won't agree to 5 drop this case." 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q Why was he asking him to drop the case? Was that 9 a demand made by Mr. Rosen? 10 A No. No. 11 Q Where did it come from? Where did Mr. Minton pick 12 this up? 13 A Well, it was because that was the only way we 14 could think of to save the case from having what's now 15 happening happen. Where all this -- you know, he and I are 16 both having to recant testimony. You know, the critic 17 community is in an uproar. We're in all this trouble. And 18 you know, we were trying to shortcut, shortcircuit the whole 19 process by just getting him to drop the case. You know, 20 hoping to avoid having to testify that Mr. Dandar had 21 encouraged us to commit perjury. 22 And you know, all these different things that were 23 going on in our mind, we thought that Mr. Dandar would be 24 more -- would rather have that, have the -- you know, have 25 the case dropped than go through all this. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 222 1 Q So what was it that -- 2 A That's what we thought. 3 Q I don't know. I've read this somewhere. I've 4 read so much I don't remember. But somebody says under 5 oath, or maybe not under oath, that the request to have the 6 case dropped came from the Scientologists. If you want 7 to -- us to discuss this, you're going to have to get the 8 case dropped. This case, dropped. 9 Are you suggesting that was never said? Was it 10 just something that you and Mr. Minton came up with? 11 A Well, I've been trying to get them to drop the 12 case since the summer before, your Honor. 13 Q Well, when you met with the Scientologists -- 14 whoever, Mr. Rosen and Mr. who? 15 A Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling. 16 Q And Ms. -- is it a Ms.? It's a woman, 17 Ms. Yingling. 18 A It's a woman, yes. 19 Q Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen -- did they tell you 20 before they would settle the case you had to get this case 21 dropped? Before they would settle with you, whatever it was 22 that was, you had to get this case dropped. 23 A No, your Honor. What they said was, "You -- you 24 have to set the record straight in this case. We have 25 reason to believe that if the truth really comes out in this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 223 1 case, that this case will -- that the judge will probably 2 throw it out. We have reason to believe --" you know, 3 basically it was like that. "We have reason to believe that 4 there's been so much -- God -- you know, whatever, bad -- so 5 much bad stuff that's happened in the case that that may 6 well be the result it." 7 Q Okay. So you called Mr. Dandar that night and 8 asked him to drought drop the case. 9 A Yes. 10 Q That was March the 30th, I take it? 11 A That was March the 29th. 12 Q Oh, okay, March the 29th. Right. Okay. 13 A And you know, he got very upset. He said, 14 "There's no way. You know, this case is too important. I 15 can't believe you're saying these things. You know, I can't 16 believe you would do that --" 17 Q Did he know you were meeting with Mr. Rosen and 18 Mr. Rinder? I mean, had you all told him that? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. 21 A I believe so. 22 Oh, oh, yeah. And you're -- you know, they're 23 threatening you. They've got something on you. You know, 24 this is when this all started. 25 And you know, Bob was very upset. I was very Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 224 1 upset. Mr. Dandar was very upset. Everybody was very 2 upset. And so then -- and I'm sorry this is -- I'm going to 3 do this as fast as I can. 4 But your hearing then happened the next Friday, 5 where Mr. Minton was on trial for contempt, for criminal 6 contempt. And that was the hearing when Mr. Moxon was going 7 through, you know, this -- this history of -- of discovery 8 with Mr. Minton. And you know, I'm sitting there in the 9 courtroom and I'm listening to all this. 10 And then he gets to this one -- I can't remember 11 what the affidavit was about -- but you know, it was the one 12 that just didn't match anything else that Mr. Minton had 13 said. You might remember that. And I thought, oh, you 14 know, she's going to find him guilty. 15 And then Mr. Howie got up and he did this judgment 16 of acquittal argument and found this technicality. And you 17 had to throw it out and find him not guilty on a 18 technicality. 19 Q I didn't have to throw it out. I threw it out 20 because he didn't -- Mr. Moxon didn't meet the -- didn't 21 make it stick. 22 A Right. 23 Q In other words, it was -- there was a technical 24 error. And by law, he was not guilty. 25 A Right. But -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 225 1 Q A judgment -- 2 A But -- 3 Q -- of acquittal. It had to be. 4 A But as far as we were concerned, it was a miracle. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Because if that technicality hadn't happened, he'd 7 be in jail. You tell me now you don't put people in jail, 8 but -- 9 Q No. I never have. I was not happy with 10 Mr. Minton. 11 A Well, we believed with all our heart that you 12 would have put him in jail. 13 Q Okay. 14 A And we -- and at that point, after that hearing 15 before you, and you admonished him that you -- he was -- I 16 don't think you said this exactly, but what you meant was, 17 "You got away with it this time, but you better not try it 18 again." That's what I heard. 19 Q Sounds like me. 20 A Yeah. And that's what Mr. Minton heard too. And 21 so the next day we went over to Wally Pope's office, and we 22 spoke to Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling. And we told them that 23 we were ready to start the process of correcting the record. 24 And there came a point during that afternoon where 25 Mr. Minton was ready to start telling them what had really Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 226 1 been going on and he started to gag, and he went outside and 2 he was really sick at the thought of doing this. But you 3 know, I said, "This is our only hope. It's our only hope. 4 We have to do this and we have to trust them." 5 You know, because -- you know, here we are, now 6 we're talking to Scientology, you know, these people that we 7 have been fighting for so long, that -- you know, or these 8 horrible, evil people. And you know, now we're -- we're 9 going in there and now we're going to start telling them the 10 truth about what's been going on. I mean, it was like -- 11 you know, it was -- it was just almost unbearable. And -- 12 Q Well, we've already established that what you were 13 going to tell them the truth about were two things that were 14 fairly insignificant except for the fact that Mr. Dandar was 15 a part of it. You were going to tell them about an 16 agreement that was perfectly all right. You were going to 17 tell them about a -- some checks that were perfectly all 18 right. 19 A Well, it may seem that simple to you now, but to 20 us at that time, what we were about to do was change sides, 21 totally turn our backs on all the people that we had been 22 working with so hard, admit to perjury, admit to discovery 23 abuse. I mean, pretty serious discovery abuse. And we 24 were -- we really had no idea what was going to happen to 25 us. But we didn't feel that there was any other choice that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 227 1 we had. 2 And I wish I could tell you that, you know, I woke 3 up one morning and I thought, I have to tell the truth 4 because it's the right thing to do. But really what 5 happened was that Saturday -- 6 Q That would have been March 30th? 7 A No. That was after the day after your hearing, so 8 it was April 6th. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Really what happened was that Saturday we went 11 outside in the front parking lot of Wally Pope's office and 12 said, "We have no choice but to recant our testimony and put 13 ourselves on the mercy of these courts." 14 And that's what happened. 15 MR. FUGATE: I have no more questions. 16 THE COURT: All right. Seems like a good time 17 to take our break. Now, look, this is an awfully 18 long weekend. I am going to permit you, ma'am -- 19 you're still on the stand. Cross examination will 20 come on Monday. I'm going to treat this like I 21 would treat something and I'm going to let you talk 22 to your lawyer. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: But I am not going to let you -- 25 you are on the stand. You cannot talk to anybody Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 228 1 else. Now I understand how tough that might be, but 2 clearly, obviously, that means Mr. Minton, he's a 3 witness, the rule's been invoked -- 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: And you can't talk to any of these 6 people. You can't talk to any of those people. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Okay? But I'm not going to 9 preclude her from talking to her lawyer 'cause I 10 think that's -- it's a long weekend and she ought to 11 have somebody she can talk to about what's going on 12 if she needs to. Is that fair? 13 MR. LIROT: To speak with her attorney and no 14 one else. 15 THE COURT: With her attorney. 16 MR. LIROT: That's fair. 17 THE COURT: She can speak to -- you can speak 18 to anybody you want to, but you just can't -- 19 THE WITNESS: But not about this. 20 THE COURT: Not about this. Not about your 21 testimony. Not about what your testimony that's 22 going on, it's going to go on. But you can talk to 23 your lawyer about anything involving this case. Is 24 that okay with you, Counsel? 25 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge, we just as a reminder Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 229 1 ask her to comply with all the requests for 2 production and all the documents that were shown to 3 her at those meetings. 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 5 MR. LIROT: Meetings with Scientology. We'd 6 like her to bring those with her on Monday. 7 THE COURT: What? I don't know what you're 8 talking about? 9 MR. MCGOWAN: Your Honor, there was a request 10 to produce that was filed as a request to produce -- 11 THE COURT: In the other case? 12 13 MR. MCGOWAN: Pardon? 14 THE COURT: In the other case or in this case? 15 MR. MCGOWAN: No, in this case. 16 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 17 MR. MCGOWAN: But it's a request to produce, 18 like a 30-day request to produce, that asks for all 19 the documents that admits extortion and blackmail 20 and so forth. 21 THE COURT: I saw that, but I thought that 22 was -- honestly I thought that was in the other 23 case. 24 MR. MCGOWAN: It was in this case. But in 25 either case, it was a 30-day request to produce. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 230 1 THE COURT: Okay. To be honest with you, what 2 does that mean? They've had 30 days to produce it? 3 MR. MCGOWAN: They've had 30 days for these 4 documents that they'll tell you don't exist. 5 THE COURT: Well, look, if you've got them and 6 you can bring them, please don't make me have 7 another hearing, Counsel. 8 MR. MCGOWAN: I won't, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: So she's got a notice to produce 10 and it's going to be something they need for their 11 cross examination and you've got them in hand, 12 forget the 30 days. Give them to her, let her bring 13 them in so that they can talk to her about it. 14 Okay? 15 MR. MCGOWAN: Certainly. 16 THE COURT: I don't want to have another 17 hearing after 30 days, and she doesn't either. Fair 18 enough? 19 MR. MCGOWAN: I think no one does, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. LIROT: Judge -- 22 MR. MCGOWAN: Your Honor, if it -- if it please 23 the court, I have another case besides this one, and 24 I have a commitment at 9:00 Monday morning. I'll be 25 out of it by about 10:15. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 231 1 THE COURT: You know what, I think I remember 2 my secretary telling me we didn't start until 1:30 3 on Monday? 4 MR. MCGOWAN: Oh, is that right? 5 MR. FUGATE: 1:30 on Monday and then 9:00, if 6 we go, on Tuesday. 7 THE COURT: If we go? Come on, Mr. Fugate. 8 MR. FUGATE: I'm just telling you what you said 9 to me, Judge. 10 THE COURT: Yeah. Okay. Who else do you have 11 to call in your case? 12 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Minton. 13 THE COURT: And then at that time you're going 14 to rest? 15 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 16 THE COURT: And then at that time I'm going to 17 hear legal argument from you, is that right? 18 MR. LIROT: Yes, please. 19 THE COURT: We might get that far, maybe, by 20 Tuesday. Maybe. I doubt it. But we might. 21 You understand, ma'am, the admonition I've 22 given you? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: If they come in and ask you, "Who 25 have you talked to over the weekend" and you say, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 232 1 "I've talked to Mr. Minton about it and I've talked 2 to Mr. Moxon about it, Mr. Fugate about it," I'm 3 going to be livid, right? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Do the best you can. Don't talk to 6 anybody about your testimony. You're on the stand. 7 THE WITNESS: I promise I won't, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Except him. You can talk to your 9 lawyer. 10 All right. That's it. We'll see you all 1:30 11 Monday. 12 (A recess was taken.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 233 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 4th day of May, 2002. 12 13 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 234 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 3 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 4 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 5 6 Plaintiff, 7 vs. VOLUME 3 8 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 9 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 10 Defendants. 11 _______________________________________/ 12 13 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 14 DATE: May 6 , 2002. Afternoon Session. 15 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 16 St. Petersburg, Florida. 17 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 18 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide RMR. 19 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 20 21 22 23 24 25 235 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25 236 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 237 1 THE COURT: Okay. Let's do a few little 2 preliminary things here. 3 In the event we don't finish tomorrow, I have 4 two trial weeks coming up, next week and the week 5 after. Both of those weeks I'm available five days 6 a week. I expect to get this thing done. 7 So -- yes? 8 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we have, of course, 9 scheduled a slew of expert depositions. 10 THE COURT: Sure. 11 MR. DANDAR: One of them is tomorrow, Joyce T. 12 Eastridge, the defendant's economist. 13 THE COURT: Tomorrow? 14 MR. DANDAR: Tomorrow. My brother can cover 15 that deposition. They have a dozen lawyers over 16 there and they canceled it on their own because of 17 this hearing. And I would request that you order 18 one of them to appear for that deposition so there 19 is no delay in preparing for trial. 20 THE COURT: Why can't one of you-all cover that 21 deposition? 22 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, for a factual 23 record, we received a notice from Mr. Dandar last 24 week that tomorrow would be taken up with this 25 hearing. He actually noticed this particular 238 1 hearing. When we got that, I wrote him a letter 2 immediately saying that, in light of that, we were 3 assuming that deposition was not going forward. And 4 that witness now is not -- she's not available. 5 THE COURT: Why not? 6 MR. HERTZBERG: She's on call, I believe, in a 7 case in West Palm Beach. And, you know, we never 8 got a response from that letter. I sent that letter 9 to Mr. Dandar immediately last week when he said 10 that tomorrow would be taken up with this hearing. 11 And so far as I know, although I have not been back 12 in my office in New York since then, I have no word 13 that any kind of response to my letter, which was 14 faxed -- 15 THE COURT: Call that witness and see if he's 16 available. If he's just on call, he ought to be 17 available, especially if that trial doesn't -- he 18 has somebody that can cover it, and you have a slew 19 of lawyers to cover it. I only need one here and 20 let's get it done. 21 MR. HERTZBERG: To be candid with you, at this 22 point now we have not had any preparation with that 23 witness. 24 THE COURT: Well, take a day and prepare, 25 whatever. 239 1 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I invited 2 Mr. Dandar to give me alternative dates. We'll 3 reschedule it as soon as we can, but we are -- we 4 are not going to be ready to go forward tomorrow. 5 And I sent him a very precise letter on this exact 6 topic. And never got a response. So we just 7 assumed it was off. 8 THE COURT: Who accepted that -- who had set 9 the deposition? 10 MR. DANDAR: Pardon me? 11 THE COURT: Who accepted that -- who had set 12 that deposition? 13 MR. DANDAR: I did. We sent it with a big 14 conference with Judge Beach. 15 THE COURT: And you unilaterally canceled it. 16 MR. HERTZBERG: He did by sending the notice 17 out. He sent us a notice saying there would be a 18 hearing that would take up last Thursday, Friday, 19 today and tomorrow. And I sent him a letter. I 20 wish I had a copy with me; I don't believe I do. 21 But I sent him a letter saying, "In light of your 22 notice, we assume we'll be rescheduling this in the 23 future. In fact, that we'll be rescheduling it. 24 Would you please notify me what days you are 25 available so I can reschedule it with you." 240 1 In the interim, frankly, I told the witness 2 that we had a hearing that was going to supersede 3 her deposition, that I have not heard back from 4 Mr. Dandar, and she sent me a notice saying that she 5 was on call for this case in West Palm Beach. 6 THE COURT: Counselor, call her. See if she's 7 available tomorrow. If she's available tomorrow, 8 one of you -- surely when the only possible issue 9 here is net accumulations to an aunt who ought to be 10 able to recover, it ought to take a two pages to get 11 it done. If she's on call, go where she is, do what 12 is necessary, try to get it done. There is no 13 reason to delay that. 14 MR. HERTZBERG: Okay. 15 THE COURT: Okay? Now, if the witness can't be 16 available because she's been called off, she made 17 other plans, there is not much we can do about that. 18 MR. HERTZBERG: Right. 19 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, on a similar note, I 20 sent a letter to Mr. Lirot and Mr. Dandar today. 21 The deposition -- based on what you just said, the 22 deposition that we had scheduled for Monday, 23 May 13th, with Dr. Bernard Knight, the fellow from 24 Wales, he's broken his leg in several places and 25 they inserted a plate and pins in his ankle and he 241 1 notified us he -- we were flying him over to 2 accommodate counsel, and he can't come on Monday. 3 So we would have, I assume, Monday available if the 4 Court wanted to use Monday. 5 THE COURT: I have two weeks. I plan to go 6 starting that Monday until we're done. You all have 7 a slew of lawyers. You make do. You know, there 8 are two of you-all, Mr. Dandar, you don't need to 9 sit here. You can be out doing whatever you have to 10 do. Mr. Lirot can handle this hearing. Whatever 11 you have scheduled, you do it. I'm just telling you 12 come that Monday I have two weeks, ten days, and I 13 plan to finish this hearing. 14 MR. FUGATE: I understand what you said now. I 15 was just going to say that is available, but we'll 16 be here. 17 MR. WEINBERG: The Monday you are talking about 18 is the 13th? Is that the Monday? 19 THE COURT: Yes, the 13th. 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 21 THE COURT: You know, frankly, if -- let me 22 make sure I'm going to be available all those two 23 weeks. I am. So if you all have something 24 scheduled one of those days, you know -- I mean, if 25 it is something you all need to be at, you have a 242 1 deposition scheduled, because I just learned that we 2 have a slew of senior judge coverage. So, quite 3 frankly, if it weren't that I have a hearing 4 tomorrow and the next that I just have to cover, 5 because it is kind of one of those continued 6 hearings where I have already done two or three days 7 of it, we'll keep going after tomorrow. 8 MR. DANDAR: We actually had a hearing set at 9 1:30 today to strike witnesses they want to depose. 10 That would also free up more time during this two 11 trial weeks. One is Tom Haverty, who you saw 12 sitting here last week. He's one of my 13 investigators and consultants. They want to take 14 his deposition. He's protected under work product. 15 THE COURT: Why do you want to take his 16 deposition? At least -- maybe you might want to 17 take it at a later proceedings, but why in the 18 wrongful death? He's an investigator or something 19 working with Mr. Dandar. I'm not going to allow 20 that. 21 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, we were prepared to 22 argue that, but I was going to tell you, Mr. Haverty 23 was the one that organized some of the experiments. 24 He did the experiment with respect to the Jeep 25 crash. He bought the Jeep, he had the Jeep. There 243 1 are issues about the embolism and the bruise to her 2 knee. And Mr. Haverty was the one specifically 3 knowledgeable about that, worked with the accident 4 reconstruction man, and apparently actually owns 5 this Jeep, too. He also is the one that set up this 6 other experiment, which may be moot now. 7 THE COURT: Which one is that? 8 MR. MOXON: The bugs. Cockroaches. 9 THE COURT: Oh, I think that is moot. 10 MR. MOXON: Yes, he also has been, for quite 11 some time, has been taking photographs and doing 12 whatnot. He has been taking photographs of counsel 13 and going to some places where the depositions were 14 and -- and outside surreptitiously taking 15 photographs. That might be an issue. 16 THE COURT: What -- how might that be an issue 17 for deposition? It might be an issue for the Court, 18 but it is hardly an issue to take a lawyer's 19 consultant's or a lawyer's investigator's 20 deposition. 21 MR. MOXON: What might be left is the accident 22 reconstruction -- 23 THE COURT: I don't think I'll allow a lawyer's 24 investigator to be deposed until you have something 25 you'll allow him to be called for. 244 1 MR. MOXON: We'll take it up then. We can hold 2 in abeyance. We already indicated we were not going 3 to take his deposition until this matter was -- 4 THE COURT: I'm telling you now, unless you can 5 come into court and show me some cause other than 6 just he might have -- I mean, all investigators have 7 some knowledge about certain things. You just don't 8 get to take their deposition. 9 So his deposition is out, unless you can show 10 me something really good as to why it should be 11 taken. 12 MR. MOXON: Fair enough. 13 THE COURT: Talk to their accident 14 reconstructionist or some piece of the puzzle that 15 he just simply can't fill in, I imagine we can get 16 it to you in some other fashion, like an affidavit 17 or something. 18 You don't depose lawyers' investigators, 19 lawyers' secretaries, lawyers and those type of 20 people. That isn't done, should not be done, and 21 it's not going to be done unless there is some super 22 reason. I haven't heard one. 23 MR. FUGATE: At a break we can get together and 24 determine what is on everyone's calendar and get it 25 resolved so we can abide by your ruling. 245 1 THE COURT: Let's just assume we'll start on 2 Monday, and unless I hear something you have set, 3 we'll just go until we are done. 4 MR. DANDAR: The other deposition they 5 scheduled two days in Dallas, Texas. 6 THE COURT: The lady that will work as far as 7 this -- if this lady is unavailable because you have 8 been called off, I hope it doesn't take ten days. 9 MR. DANDAR: I hope not. 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MR. DANDAR: But the other thing they 12 scheduled, which we noticed for today, is that they 13 want to take the half brother and sister of Lisa 14 McPherson from her father's first marriage who have 15 not seen Lisa McPherson since she was a baby. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, file motion to exclude 17 that. 18 MR. DANDAR: I did. 19 THE COURT: Then I'll hear it, and unless they 20 have some awfully good reason, that won't be 21 allowed. 22 MR. DANDAR: It was set for 1:30. I just 23 wanted to let you know that. 24 THE COURT: Today? 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 246 1 THE COURT: Let's hear it. 2 MR. MOXON: I didn't see any such notice. We 3 have not subpoenaed them. We have not asked for 4 out-of-state -- we haven't received his motion, 5 either. 6 MR. DANDAR: I didn't file the motion. 7 THE COURT: Then in that case, we can't hear 8 it. 9 MR. DANDAR: I'll set it for Monday. 10 THE COURT: You can set it for next week if you 11 want. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. 13 THE COURT: We need to get this thing down to 14 where, if it's going to be tried, depositions are 15 being taken of people who know something about the 16 case. It doesn't sound like those folks would. 17 I also want to inform you that if this case 18 goes on to trial, that we had kind of scheduled this 19 tentatively for the June trial docket which would 20 have been starting on the second week. I know we 21 also talked kind of tentatively about using that for 22 motions and pretrial matters and stuff like that. 23 And that is still fine with me. 24 I thought I should tell you that the next week, 25 I think that is the week -- yes, the next week, I 247 1 have to be in Tallahassee to address the Supreme 2 Court on the 18th. And that requires me to go to 3 Tallahassee the night before. Which means that kind 4 of messes up my day. So I'm going to be sort of 5 tentatively unavailable the 17th and 18th. I have 6 got a meeting in Naples -- I don't remember where it 7 is, wherever the circuit judges conference is -- 8 Naples, all day the 21st of that week. And I'm 9 going to be on a panel on the 24th of that week. I 10 am moving on the 28th of that week. 11 So I'm kind of giving you just an idea that 12 you'll have -- you all kind of blocked for two to 13 four months for this, so what I'm telling you, we're 14 going to have time in June. I won't get started 15 with the jury until we can get started and go, 16 unless we just want to bring in 50 at a time and 17 take the days that we've got and do it kind of 18 piecemeal. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would ask we not do 20 anything on the 17th at all, because as I indicated, 21 my daughter will get married on the 15th, which is a 22 Saturday. 23 THE COURT: We'll keep the 17th open. We have 24 the 17th open, the 18th open, the 21st -- well, 25 open -- closed, unavailable, you know, 21st is 248 1 closed, 24th is closed. 2 MR. FUGATE: The 28th is the Friday? 3 THE COURT: The 28th is closed. And really 4 there is -- 5 MR. DANDAR: Is this all in June? 6 THE COURT: All in June. So our hope of 7 getting this started in June -- everything started 8 falling into this June mess. 9 So I think what we'll do is say this. I think 10 we'll kind of assume that we have got June in 11 between motions that we'll still have, things that 12 are still going on, maybe depositions that -- that 13 you haven't had a chance to take. We'll have days 14 where we can fit things in, but we won't plan on 15 actually starting the trial in June. Just got too 16 many odds and ends. 17 So if this case ends up in trial, maybe we can 18 start July. I bet you -- I don't know if we have 19 the 5th off. Is the 5th a court holiday? Does 20 anybody know? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Do you know what day of the week 22 the 4th is? 23 THE COURT: The 4th is a Thursday. A lot of 24 times the 5th becomes a court holiday. That is all 25 right. It might take us a good four or five days to 249 1 get a jury. So maybe when we have our case 2 management conference we can settle this down a 3 little bit and see what days we have and what have 4 you. 5 But as I'm looking at this and as I'm hearing 6 this, it may be very hard for us to get much done. 7 It's the week of the 10th -- see, that is a good 8 week for me, and it's probably a good week for 9 you-all, but the problem is, I said we pretty much 10 would take that week and finish up anything we still 11 have hanging on. 12 So just be aware that the month of June is 13 going to be fairly flexible, and you all will have 14 some time to work on your case. Unless you get 15 bogged down taking depositions up until the last 16 minute, you can kind of spend some of that time 17 preparing your case. 18 MR. WEINBERG: If you recall, the beginning of 19 June I would be gone to my son's graduation from 20 college up in Massachusetts, but that will be okay, 21 basically, what you just said. 22 THE COURT: Yes, that will work. So I'm just 23 kind of advising you of all those little problems. 24 I wrote down a couple of things -- so I want to 25 start next week -- I think I'll go ahead and do my 250 1 regular calendar. We'll just go this afternoon, all 2 day tomorrow, see where we end up. If we can finish 3 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, that is the end of your 4 case, I think you said. 5 MR. FUGATE: We've got some documents. But 6 other than that, that will be the live witness 7 testimony. 8 THE COURT: We can at least finish that part of 9 it. 10 MR. DANDAR: And the defense witnesses, 11 unfortunately, after tomorrow, are gone and will not 12 be available again until the 15th. 13 THE COURT: Where are they gone? 14 MR. DANDAR: Out of state. Jessie Prince will 15 be gone Wednesday to go to California on the 16 Wollersheim Scientology case, and Peter Alexander is 17 on the road after tomorrow. Those are two key 18 witnesses. And they will not be back until the 15th 19 or after the 15th. 20 THE COURT: Well, as I said, I have the week of 21 the 10th and the week of the 17th. 22 MR. DANDAR: All right. 23 THE COURT: We have a lot of senior judge days 24 left all, of which have to be used by July, so I'm 25 in a real good position of getting all I want. 251 1 I told you all that -- this is only to correct 2 the record -- that I had never held but one 3 defendant in contempt, and that is true. But I did 4 hold the St. Petersburg Times in contempt once. A 5 reporter from the Times. Probably the only judge to 6 ever successfully hold the St. Pete Times in 7 contempt. It was affirmed on appeal, and they 8 withdrew their cert position for the Florida Supreme 9 Court. It is not listed as the St. Pete Times. I 10 didn't make the case against them. I made it 11 against the reporter. But I had every Times editor 12 up to the top here for the hearing. You'll -- I 13 didn't put her in jail; I suspended her sentence and 14 fined her. 15 But I forgot about that, so I actually had two 16 contempt cases that had to do with -- she had agreed 17 with me not to publish something and the very next 18 day it was in a big story and I couldn't allow that 19 to happen. 20 I want to know from Ms. Brooks' attorney, you 21 are here, as I indicated at some point in time in 22 this hearing, it's very difficult for the Court to 23 hear witnesses admit they have committed perjury. 24 And I'm involved in all kinds of hearings. Because 25 of that, and not consider orders to show cause, 252 1 should I file an order to show cause, I need to know 2 whether you will accept service for your client. 3 MR. McGOWAN: I shall, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, will you accept service 5 from your client? 6 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, we will. 7 THE COURT: I can only go that far now because 8 they are the only two that admitted to me committing 9 perjury. If we have more than that that I decided 10 have, we'll go from there. 11 So as I said, I don't have the time right now 12 to worry with it, but if that time comes, I'll just 13 mail it to you and you'll accept service if that is 14 okay, rather than -- 15 MR. McGOWAN: Right. 16 THE COURT: I got to thinking about it, that is 17 what I did for the Times. I called and had them -- 18 said, "Would you like me to mail this to you, or 19 just hand it to you." He said yes, he would accept 20 service. 21 Now, the last thing I want to do, I want to get 22 this hearing finished so you-all know whether you 23 have a trial or not, who will try the case, so I can 24 make arrangements to get this thing done. And I 25 think that would be good for all of the lawyers, and 253 1 I have already told you that. 2 So with that in mind, Ms. Brooks is on the 3 stand. And Mr. Lirot -- 4 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, may it please the 5 Court -- 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 7 MR. McGOWAN: Request to produce had been 8 furnished on Ms. Brooks, and the Court instructed us 9 to comply with it as of today, which we've done, and 10 I can file the response to the Court. 11 I wanted to advise the Court that we have 12 complied, and probably overcomplied, as far as 13 documents -- we attached a lawsuit which is not 14 exactly responsive, but in an -- 15 THE COURT: Is that the notice to produce filed 16 in the other case? 17 MR. McGOWAN: It was filed in this case -- 18 THE COURT: The only notice to produce I saw 19 was one filed by the plaintiffs in this case, and I 20 thought it was -- 21 MR. McGOWAN: It could be in the other case. 22 It is Church versus Dell Liebreich, you are right. 23 And it was sought -- it sought production of various 24 confidentiality agreements, any evidence of 25 blackmail or extortion by the Church. 254 1 THE COURT: Yes, and I think they meant for it 2 to be filed here, but I think they styled it in the 3 other case. So I don't have a problem if you want 4 to file your original here since this was the day of 5 return and you are here and then send a copy up 6 there. 7 MR. McGOWAN: Fine. That is what we've done. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. McGOWAN: Just so the Court knows, two of 10 the items that were requested -- 11 THE COURT: First of all, is that all right 12 with you-all? 13 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Yes, it is. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. McGOWAN: One of the items requested was 16 Stacy Brooks' personal income tax returns for the 17 past five years. As a practical matter, they are in 18 Atlanta where she lives. 19 As you know, she was here Friday, and it's a 20 30-day request, so she couldn't get them. 21 We also objected to the production of those. 22 We don't know what -- whether they calculate or not 23 calculate it will lead to discovery of admissible 24 evidence, at least for purpose of this hearing, and 25 also we think it is an invasion of privacy, 255 1 burdensome and oppressive. 2 In terms of the tax returns of the Lisa 3 McPherson Trust, likewise there was one filed for 4 one year, and there was another that would be due 5 for 2001 that has not been even prepared, so it 6 doesn't exist. That return is in Atlanta -- 7 THE COURT: We can't hear that all. Just go 8 ahead and file what you have. 9 MR. McGOWAN: I just wanted to tell you what we 10 didn't comply with and what we objected to. 11 THE COURT: Did you make a copy for me, by any 12 chance? 13 MR. McGOWAN: This is the original. I -- 14 THE COURT: Counsel, somebody needs to make a 15 copy for me. 16 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 17 THE COURT: Since it has to do directly with 18 this hearing. Okay? 19 Madam clerk, you want to take this? Would you 20 rather have it since it is styled in that case filed 21 up there? It might be better thing to do, file it 22 up there and copy here? 23 MR. DANDAR: Either way. 24 THE COURT: Madam clerk, we can get it stamped 25 in today so it shows whatever is complied with is 256 1 complied with as of today and then make a copy for 2 this case. 3 THE CLERK: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Send the original up to Clearwater, 5 but file it today. And while you are making the 6 copy for here, maybe you can make me an extra copy. 7 THE CLERK: I will. 8 THE COURT: Will you do that? 9 THE CLERK: Yes, I will. 10 THE COURT: And get it to me by tomorrow? 11 THE CLERK: Yes. 12 MR. McGOWAN: The other thing is housekeeping. 13 There was a scrivener's error in Ms. Brooks' 14 affidavit. Basically Paragraph 18, it could have 15 been misread, it had payments to two individuals. 16 She just clarified the meaning of the sentence. 17 It's not very substantive, but I wanted to file that 18 with the Court while she was on the stand. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. FUGATE: One housekeeping matter -- 21 THE COURT: Wait a minute, let's see if he's 22 done. 23 MR. FUGATE: Sorry. 24 THE COURT: If he's done, we'll go on to the 25 next person with housekeeping matters. 257 1 MR. McGOWAN: That is all I have. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. FUGATE: I understand after I left that you 4 were handed up a copy of all of Mr. Minton's 5 depositions. I have a copy which I'll hand up to 6 the Court and tell the Court and counsel they are 7 all of Dell Liebreich's depositions, in case the 8 Court needed those. 9 THE COURT: I may have hers. I'm not sure. 10 MR. FUGATE: If you don't, I'll leave this up 11 here, if I can approach. 12 THE COURT: That is good. I don't know if that 13 contained all of Mr. Minton's depositions. It 14 contained all of the ones up through an April 8 15 date, but I don't know if he's been deposed after 16 that, because it seemed there was one -- supposed to 17 be one deposition where he was to purge himself of 18 this -- of this perjury and it was not in there. 19 MR. FUGATE: I think that was the hearing -- 20 the sentencing hearing on Friday. 21 THE COURT: So there was no deposition before 22 the hearing? 23 MR. DANDAR: There was -- 24 MR. FUGATE: There was -- 25 MR. DANDAR: There is a deposition on April 8 258 1 in Wally Pope's office of Mr. Minton. They didn't 2 finish, and they were supposed to continue that on 3 April 9 in the afternoon after the hearing. There 4 was a hearing before Judge Baird to purge Mr. Minton 5 of his contempt. My brother showed up at Wally 6 Pope's office at one o'clock or so for the 7 deposition, and Wally Pope told him it was canceled. 8 So we never got the chance to cross-examine 9 Mr. Minton before the Judge Baird hearing went 10 forward on disqualification. 11 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then, I do have that 12 deposition. And that is the last -- it was not 13 really very much related to this case. 14 MR. DANDAR: Nothing at all. 15 THE COURT: LMT -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Nothing at all. 17 MR. FUGATE: I stand corrected. You have that 18 one, and then the other testimony I think is the 19 9th, which is the sentencing before Judge Baird. 20 THE COURT: I have all that. 21 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Any other housekeeping 23 matters? No? Okay. Let me look through my notes 24 here. And you may inquire. 25 MR. LIROT: Thank you, judge. May it please 259 1 the Court, counsel. 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Ms. Brooks, I'm Luke Lirot. I want to ask you 5 some questions about some of your earlier testimony and some 6 of the affidavits that you filed in this case. 7 And I would like to start off by asking you about 8 the meetings that you testified to relative to trying to 9 settle -- reach global settlement with the Church of 10 Scientology. When did you first consider doing that? 11 A Oh, I believe the subject first came up during a 12 series of conversations that I had with Mr. Howie, perhaps 13 in January -- probably that began in January. 14 Q January of 2002? 15 A Yes. 16 Q This year? 17 A Yes. I think so. 18 Q All right. And prior to that you didn't have any 19 interest in trying to reach any global settlement on any of 20 these issues involving the Church of Scientology? 21 A Mmm, I believe it was in January when -- when I 22 spoke to Mr. Howie as I began to -- 23 Q Okay. Was Mr. -- 24 THE COURT: Wait a minute, she may not have 25 been done. She said, "When I began to," and -- 260 1 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 2 THE COURT: Had you finished? 3 THE WITNESS: I had. I think I'm taking too 4 long, your Honor. But when I began to think that 5 that might be a resolution of this situation. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q All right. Was Mr. Howie your counsel at that 9 point? 10 A No. He wasn't. He was Mr. Minton's counsel. 11 Q Okay. Why would you be getting in touch with 12 Mr. Howie? 13 A Well, at that time, Mr. Minton -- I think I 14 testified on Friday, Mr. Minton was very distraught and very 15 upset and depressed about the situation that he found 16 himself in. And he was not being very communicative with 17 anyone, including his own attorney. And I was very 18 concerned about -- about him. 19 Q Okay. 20 A And so I was speaking to Mr. Howie about my 21 concerns. 22 Q How would you know all this about Mr. Minton's 23 distraught nature and I guess what would clearly appear to 24 be some intimate knowledge about his personal feelings? 25 A Well, I live with him. 261 1 Q Okay. And what is that living arrangement? 2 A Mmm, well, for the most part, I'm at his house in 3 New Hampshire, and we also now have a house in Atlanta. But 4 we haven't spent very much time there. So the house had to 5 have some work done on it in Atlanta. So for the most part, 6 we live in New Hampshire. 7 THE COURT: I think what he's trying to get at, 8 nobody is trying to be embarrassing here, but are 9 you-all living together in some sort of a friendship 10 relationship? Or is it more than that? 11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I love him and we 12 live together in a relationship of two people who 13 love each other. 14 THE COURT: Okay. So it's an intimate 15 relationship, when you talk about those type of 16 things? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q How did that relationship evolve? When did you 20 first meet Mr. Minton? 21 A In September of 1997. My husband at the time, 22 Vaughn Young, made a posting on the Internet in which he 23 described a situation that we were in in which Scientology 24 was basically harassing us in ways that was causing us to 25 feel that we were going to need to stop doing any 262 1 anti-Scientology work. 2 Q What were they doing to you? 3 A Oh, they -- well, at the time, I had a cat 4 sanctuary, or at least the beginnings of a cat sanctuary. 5 And I was -- and it sort of had grown more than I had meant 6 for -- not more than I meant for it to, but more than I 7 planned. So I had more animals in this house that we were 8 renting than the residential regulations allowed. 9 And it was my belief, and my husband's belief, 10 that the Scientology was responsible for a number of 11 anonymous phone calls being made to animal control, and then 12 after that calls that were being made to the zoning 13 department. Because the animal control calls -- you know, 14 animal control would come out every day because they had 15 these complaints. And the house was really clean and -- and 16 it was okay. So then phone calls were made to the zoning 17 department. And, you know, we were violating the zoning 18 regulations. 19 So our landlord -- 20 THE COURT: This is a lot more than I need to 21 know about this. 22 MR. LIROT: I think you are right, your Honor. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q I appreciate your thorough nature -- 25 THE COURT: To say nothing for the fact I read 263 1 it in Mr. Minton's deposition so I already knew 2 about it. 3 MR. LIROT: Well, I didn't know about it, 4 Judge. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q In any event, this cat sanctuary, was this just 7 something you did as a hobby or did you get paid for that 8 or -- 9 A Mmm, it was something that I really cared deeply 10 about. In fact, I'm still involved in that kind of work 11 with animals. And -- 12 Q My question was, were you getting any money for 13 it? Or was this just -- I mean, did you sell any of the 14 cats? 15 A Well, it wasn't a situation where the cats would 16 be sold. It was -- well, I guess it is semantics, but when 17 a cat would be adopted -- because what we would do would be 18 rescue a cat and find a good home for it. And so -- 19 Q Did you get any money -- 20 A Yes. 21 Q -- at all? 22 A So -- 23 Q You were making money? 24 A So when a person would adopt a cat, they would pay 25 a fee for the cat. 264 1 Q Okay. Well, I think in your affidavit you said 2 that during that period of time your sole source of income 3 was drafting what was referred to, I guess, as 4 anti-Scientology affidavits. 5 A I believe I said it was my primary source of 6 income. 7 Q You didn't say it was your sole source of income? 8 A Well, let me check. 9 Q It's all right. The affidavit will speak for 10 itself. And I'm not trying to pick on you about -- you 11 know, I'm sure whatever you made from selling a cat here and 12 there is probably not an extensive amount of money. I'm 13 just trying to check the facts. 14 A I'm not seeing it right now, but I believe I said 15 primary. 16 Q All right. Now, let me backtrack a little bit. 17 So in 1997, you had an opportunity -- or I guess you said 18 your husband at that time, Mr. Young, had posted something 19 on the Internet that apparently Mr. Minton responded to. 20 What was that? 21 A Yes, it was a very lengthy posting in which he 22 described our circumstance. And basically it was meant as 23 an explanation for people as to why we were going to go -- 24 become inactive in our anti-Scientology work. 25 Q Why you were going to become inactive? 265 1 A Why we were going to become inactive. Yes. 2 Q So as I understand it then, there was some 3 announcement that you and Mr. Young, who had been 4 Scientologists for I think what you testified to as 15 years 5 for you, 20 years for him? 6 A 15 years. 7 Q You both left Scientology? 8 A In 1989. 9 Q I think that clearly there was some discontent 10 after you -- 11 A We were very disgusted, yes. 12 Q Why? 13 A Mmm, we both had some really, really bad 14 experiences during the time we were in Scientology. 15 Q Okay. Now, I mean, I guess my question would be, 16 you had bad experiences, then your testimony was that 17 lawyers would track you down and get you to sign these 18 affidavits, or -- 19 A No. That wasn't my testimony. 20 Q Well, you prepared a number of affidavits. 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q How many do you think you prepared? 23 A Oh, probably, I would estimate, as many as 10. 24 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. I'm up 25 here trying to listen, but I'm getting frustrated. 266 1 I can't seem to put my hand on Ms. Brooks' main 2 affidavit. I have one here that is four pages, but 3 that was the first one. 4 Then we had -- 5 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think it is Exhibit 72, if 6 I'm not mistaken, of the omnibus motion. 7 THE COURT: All right. But I had another copy 8 of it, too. 9 THE WITNESS: Do you want to borrow mine, your 10 Honor? 11 THE COURT: No. I'll find it. All right. I 12 got it. Go on ahead. 13 MR. LIROT: All right. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Let me bring you back to 2002, Ms. Brooks. I'll 16 ask you some questions about the past later. 17 2002, apparently Mr. Minton is distraught. You 18 get a hold of Mr. Howie. Didn't Mr. Minton have Mr. Merrett 19 as counsel at that point in time, John Merrett? 20 A In January of 2002? I believe not. If he hadn't 21 formally discharged him as counsel, he was not considering 22 him to be counsel at that time, as I recall. 23 Q All right. So January 2002, you call Mr. Howie, I 24 guess on behalf of Mr. Minton. And at that point in time, 25 you indicated you wanted to reach some global settlement 267 1 with Scientology? 2 A Mmm, I don't believe that that is how the 3 conversation went. But we did -- Mr. Howie actually brought 4 up the possibility of settlement in the breach of contract 5 case. And when he brought that possibility up, I said to 6 him, "I know Scientology won't settle just one case with 7 Mr. Minton. If -- if you -- Mmm, if you approach them to 8 settle just one case, I guarantee you that they will come 9 back and say they want a global settlement." 10 Then Mr. Howie asked me to explain to him what 11 that meant. And I told him what I thought it meant. 12 Q Okay. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Howie really hadn't been 14 involved in this case up until then. Is that right? 15 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I don't believe so. I think 16 he had been just on the breach case at that point. 17 But -- I don't know if there was anything going on 18 in regard to Mr. Minton in the case at that time. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, here is a copy if 20 you want. 21 THE COURT: Thanks. I finally got to it, 22 but -- is that an extra one? I'll take it. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, that is an extra one. 24 THE COURT: Thank you. The reason I was 25 looking for mine, I read it and I made some notes on 268 1 it, but, you know, I'll just have to make new ones. 2 Go ahead. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Do you know how it was Mr. Minton came to retain 5 Mr. Howie as his counsel? 6 A Oh, yes. 7 Q Was he referred by Mr. Dandar? Did Mr. Dandar 8 help him find Mr. Howie? 9 A No. 10 Q Mr. Dandar had nothing to do with telling 11 Mr. Minton that Mr. Howie was a good attorney and that he 12 was available to serve as counsel? 13 A No. 14 Q Well, how did Mr. Minton find Mr. Howie? 15 A Mr. Minton had a criminal trial maybe in 2000. 16 And he retained Denis DeVlaming as his criminal counsel. 17 And Mr. Howie was an attorney who worked with Mr. DeVlaming 18 on a regular basis. And Mr. DeVlaming brought Mr. Howie in 19 on that case. 20 And then Mr. Howie -- well, Mr. Minton at first 21 had Mr. DeVlaming representing him in another case that was 22 before Judge Penick regarding an injunction. And then 23 Mr. DeVlaming felt that it was going on -- going into areas 24 that really weren't his area of expertise. And so Mr. Howie 25 ended up becoming Mr. Minton's counsel in that case. 269 1 Q All right. Do you know Dr. Garko? Do you know 2 who he is? 3 A Yes. 4 Q All right. I don't know if the Court knows, but 5 can you tell the Court who Dr. Garko is? 6 A Dr. Garko is Mr. Dandar's trial consultant. 7 Q Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Dandar and Mr. -- 8 and Dr. Garko were trying to get Attorney DeVlaming to 9 represent Mr. Minton at that time? 10 A Are you saying -- 11 Q Prior to -- prior to Mr. Minton retaining 12 Mr. Howie? 13 A That Mr. Dandar helped Mr. Minton find 14 Mr. DeVlaming? 15 Q No, that he was trying to get Mr. DeVlaming to 16 represent him at that point in time? 17 A You mean for his criminal trial? 18 Q For any proceedings in early January of -- excuse 19 me, January of 2002? 20 A 2002? 21 Q January -- let me just back up a little, ma'am. 22 You had testified that Mr. Howie had gone, met 23 with Mr. Minton, and at that point there was consideration 24 for working out a settlement with the Church of Scientology. 25 My question was -- 270 1 A That is not what I testified to. 2 Q I'm sorry? 3 A That is not what I testified to. 4 Q My question was, how did Mr. Minton end up with 5 Mr. Howie? And I'm just asking if you remember that -- 6 A I'm telling you. 7 Q I understand, but do you recall Mr. Dandar trying 8 to get Denis DeVlaming to assist as Mr. -- Mr. Minton in the 9 breach case prior to retaining Mr. Howie? 10 A I don't know if it was in the breach case, but I 11 know Mr. Dandar, when he was in New Hampshire, at the end of 12 February, said -- offered to go and see Mr. DeVlaming and 13 see if he would come in as -- as another counsel for 14 Mr. Minton. 15 Q So Mr. Minton already had Mr. Howie as counsel at 16 that point in time? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did Mr. Howie come up to New Hampshire to discuss 19 the possibility -- 20 A No. 21 Q -- of settlement? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you come down here or communicate with him 24 over the phone? 25 A It was over the phone, as I recall. I don't 271 1 believe we had a meeting with him in person. 2 Q All right. So as I understand it, Mr. Minton 3 retained Mr. Howie to try to settle the breach case as we're 4 referring to it -- 5 A Well, he already had Mr. Howie as his attorney. 6 Q Okay. But in early January of 2002, Mr. Minton 7 decided that he would talk to Mr. Howie and they were going 8 to try to work out a settlement of the breach case. Is that 9 correct? 10 A Yes. That is correct. 11 Q All right. And after that, apparently you 12 interjected some concern that it would be useless to settle 13 that case because Scientology wouldn't give you the benefit 14 of any -- any resolution of that case unless there were 15 other cases resolved. Is that correct? 16 A That is not correct. 17 Q All right. Correct me. 18 A All right. 19 Q Tell me what really happened. 20 A What really happened is what I just said. Which 21 was that Mr. Howie and I had conversations in which 22 Mr. Howie suggested that because the costs involved in the 23 breach case were so low, that it would probably be a fairly 24 simple matter for him to broach the Scientology attorneys 25 with an offer of settlement on Mr. Minton's behalf. 272 1 And I said, "Well, they probably won't be willing 2 to do that, but I -- I want to talk to Mr. Minton and see if 3 he will authorize you to make that approach." 4 So then I talked with Mr. Minton and told him what 5 Mr. Howie had said and asked him if he would authorize 6 Mr. Howie to make that approach for settlement in the breach 7 case. And -- 8 Q Again, I'm sorry, maybe I'm not listening close 9 enough. What was the deal? What did you want to do in the 10 breach case to get Mr. Minton out of that case? 11 A Mmm, well, Mr. Howie said to me that -- like I 12 said, that the costs involved in the breach case were fairly 13 low, so that he -- 14 Q What kind of costs? I don't understand. Attorney 15 fees paid by -- 16 THE COURT: Counsel, you'll have to let her 17 finish when you ask a question, write it down, 18 because she does tend to go on and on. 19 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, I will watch myself. 20 THE COURT: You have to let her finish. Okay? 21 You can continue. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'll try not to go on and 23 on, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: I didn't mean that disparagingly. 25 But sometimes we learn more than we need to learn. 273 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, okay. 2 A Oh, okay. So, well, you know, I'm not exactly 3 sure, but I guess it was attorney fees or whatever kind of 4 costs it is that you do when you settle a simple case. I'm 5 not really sure what that is. 6 But -- but -- but Mr. Howie said to me that the 7 costs were going to be fairly low in the breach case 8 because -- you know, I don't remember exactly -- but he did, 9 maybe -- he said something about Florida law, in Florida 10 costs are low. I don't know. Something like that. 11 In any case, he thought it would be a fairly 12 simple matter to settle that case. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q With the Church? On behalf of Mr. Minton? 15 A Right. 16 Q Were you named as a party in the breach case? 17 A Yes. 18 Q All right. Individually? Or as the operator of 19 the Lisa McPherson -- 20 A No. 21 Q Okay. What was alleged against you in that case? 22 What was the Church's complaint about what you did to bring 23 you into that case? 24 A I can't remember exactly. 25 THE COURT: You were named as an individual, as 274 1 well as LMT? Or just LMT? 2 THE WITNESS: Just the LMT. 3 THE COURT: You were the representative? 4 THE WITNESS: I am LMT, so -- 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q All right, do you remember what Mr. Minton's role 7 was? What the Church complained Mr. Minton did to bring him 8 in as a defendant in the breach case? 9 THE COURT: Are we talking about the case up in 10 Clearwater? 11 MR. LIROT: I'm -- Judge, I'm getting to the 12 global settlement here. 13 THE COURT: I know, but is that what we are 14 talking about? 15 MR. LIROT: Right, we call it the breach case. 16 THE COURT: That is the one where they said 17 they breached a contract that prohibited 18 Mr. Dandar -- or Mr. Liebreich, actually, from 19 bringing in David Miscavige. And they did so and, 20 therefore, they breached their agreement when they 21 did so, is that it? 22 MR. LIROT: I understand that aspect. I have 23 no idea how LMT or somebody else that is not part of 24 the agreement gets brought in as defendant. 25 THE COURT: I see what you are saying. If she 275 1 knows then. 2 MR. LIROT: If she knows. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q If you know, what was their complaint against 6 Mr. Minton? Did you know one way or another if Mr. Minton 7 was part of this contract or agreement that was being 8 allegedly breached? 9 A Well, you know, I haven't -- I haven't seen the 10 breach complaint in a while. But I can tell you that 11 generally speaking, Scientology was bringing Mr. Minton and 12 LMT into everything. And basically saying that -- you know, 13 generally saying, without using legal terms, that Mr. Minton 14 and LMT in the case were all the same thing. So I would 15 imagine -- although I don't remember too well what the 16 breach case said, I would imagine it followed that same 17 general theory. 18 Q Clarify. You said generally -- 19 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. I don't know 20 myself. Mr. Minton wasn't originally a party there, 21 was he? 22 MR. DANDAR: No. 23 THE COURT: So wasn't he kind of brought in 24 when all of this -- the thought being that -- that 25 Mr. Minton was having influence over Mr. Dandar by 276 1 paying him money, and he was having influence over 2 this decision, the very thing that we're arguing 3 about here and, therefore, the motion was made to 4 add him as a party at that time? 5 MR. LIROT: That is my question. 6 MR. DANDAR: That -- 7 THE COURT: Isn't that it? 8 MR. DANDAR: That is it. 9 MR. LIROT: Okay. Well, I guess, Judge, this 10 opens another question. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q You said generally. Were you and Mr. Minton named 13 in other lawsuits where the Church of Scientology was a 14 party? 15 A Well, I'm not sure if it happened yet or not. But 16 I think we were going to be named in the counterclaim. 17 Q Why would you want to settle a suit if you are not 18 named yet? 19 A We weren't settling that one. We were settling 20 the breach. 21 Q Were you already named as a party in the breach? 22 A I think so. Well, Mr. Minton was for sure. 23 Q So he's in it for sure. And Mr. Howie apparently 24 says we can probably get out of this one for some relatively 25 menial -- you know, it is reachable, the costs would be a 277 1 reachable event? 2 A Yes, in other words, it wouldn't be too much of a 3 burden on Mr. Minton to settle it. 4 THE COURT: When you say costs, ma'am, are you 5 talking about -- when you settle a case, you 6 normally settle for damages. In other words, you 7 settle because you are going to get a judgment -- 8 THE WITNESS: In Florida, is there a limit on 9 that? Are they low in Florida or something? 10 THE COURT: No, it is just normally I wouldn't 11 expect a lawyer to be talking about settling a case 12 for costs. He would probably say we can settle 13 this, but I don't imagine the damages would be too 14 big. 15 THE WITNESS: That would probably be the same. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q But, either way, you make it sound like it was a 18 relatively appealing manner of settlement. Is that true? 19 A Well, Mr. Howie thought it would be -- you know, 20 Mr. Howie thought that he could arrange a settlement with 21 them that would be appealing enough to Mr. Minton that he 22 would do it. 23 Q Okay. And what did you do next in that regard? 24 A I asked Mr. Minton if he would authorize Mr. Howie 25 to make that approach. 278 1 Q And -- 2 A And -- 3 Q I'm sorry. 4 A And -- 5 Q Go ahead and finish. 6 A I was jumping ahead. Sorry. 7 Q So basically you asked Mr. Minton, said, "Hey, can 8 I talk to Bruce Howie and we can try to work this out?" 9 A Yes. 10 Q What was your discussion with Mr. Minton? 11 A That Mr. Howie thought that he could come to a 12 reasonable settlement on the breach case. That I told him 13 that I was concerned that Scientology wouldn't agree to just 14 settling one case, but that I thought it was certainly 15 something that Mr. Howie should try to do. 16 Q So originally -- 17 A Something like that. 18 Q I'm sorry. Originally, you thought it was a good 19 idea Mr. Howie would just settle the breach case? 20 A I thought it would be great if they would. I just 21 didn't think that they would. 22 Q All right. Now, why is it that you are acting as 23 the go-between with Mr. Minton and Mr. Howie? 24 A Well, as I said earlier, Mr. Minton was in very 25 bad shape. He wasn't wanting to talk to anybody. He was 279 1 hardly leaving his house at all. And I was very concerned 2 about him, and he was speaking to Mr. Howie about my 3 concerns. 4 Q So Mr. Minton is not leaving the house at all, for 5 what reason? Why is he so distraught? 6 A Because Judge Baird had already been about to put 7 him in jail in October. Judge Schaeffer was -- he was 8 afraid Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird were going to 9 continue to come after him on contempt charges. He was 10 perjuring himself in depositions, and he was afraid that the 11 courts were going to -- well, he was just extremely afraid 12 that he was going to be destroyed over the whole situation. 13 Q So basically, as I understand your testimony, that 14 there was -- there were some depositions taken of 15 Mr. Minton, and he testified about this alleged agreement, 16 the agreement to, I guess, fund the Lisa McPherson Trust, 17 that was one concern. Is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q All right. And the other concern was about some 20 checks that I guess were not from Mr. Minton's account. 21 That was another concern? 22 A Well, he had testified that he had given 23 Mr. Dandar a certain amount of money, which was a lie, 24 because he had given Mr. Dandar a lot more money than he was 25 testifying to. 280 1 Q Okay. We'll get a chance to explore that. I'm 2 just trying to isolate your concerns, or at least what you 3 felt Mr. Minton's concerns were since you were acting as his 4 communicator, I guess. 5 A Well, I wouldn't characterize myself as his 6 communicator. 7 Q You were communicating messages between Mr. Minton 8 and Mr. Howie. Is that correct? 9 A Not really. I was just having a conversation with 10 Mr. Howie on my own, really. I wasn't acting as a 11 go-between because Mr. Minton was in such apathy about the 12 whole situation that he wasn't thinking that his attorneys 13 could even help him. 14 Q Well, I'm confused here. If he's apathetic and 15 he's not on the phone and you are making the phone calls, 16 that doesn't make you the communicator? I mean, does 17 Mr. Minton make any of these phone calls? 18 A He did after Mr. Howie and I spoke. 19 Q Okay. So basically you gave him a ray of hope, 20 said hey, maybe there is a way we can get you out of all 21 this. What I'm trying to ask, you are concerned about his 22 testimony about the agreement, or lack thereof, or whatever 23 he testified to -- 24 A No. That is not what I said. 25 Q All right. I'm just -- I'm asking the question 281 1 here. What were your primary concerns? You mentioned 2 perjury -- 3 A You want me to tell you? 4 Q -- false statements? And you described this 5 overall fear. I want to know specifically what it was -- 6 A I'll tell you. 7 Q -- that Mr. Minton was afraid of? 8 A I'll tell you. 9 Q Please. 10 A Well, actually, you have asked me several 11 questions. Let me answer it one at a time. 12 Q Please. 13 A The first question you asked was what was I 14 concerned about. What I was concerned about was 15 Mr. Minton's state of mind. That is what I was concerned 16 about. I was speaking to Mr. Howie, hoping that Mr. Howie 17 could do something that would cause Mr. Minton to feel 18 better than he was feeling. Because he was feeling really, 19 really bad. Mr. Minton's concerns, he wasn't particularly 20 voicing them at the time. I knew, generally speaking, that 21 he was very concerned about his perjury. But Mr. Minton was 22 not being very communicative, even to me. 23 All I knew was that the only possibility I could 24 see on the horizon for any help for Mr. Minton at all was 25 his attorney, Mr. Howie, and Mr. Jonas. So I was talking to 282 1 them, seeing if they could come up with any ideas for how to 2 help Mr. Minton in this situation he was in. 3 Q Well, so that sounds like it was a lot more than 4 concern about perjury. 5 A What? Why are you saying that? 6 Q I didn't say it. I think what you said was he's 7 concerned about perjury, but what I was concerned with was 8 his overall malaise, his discontent, he seemed to be 9 overwhelmed with angst. 10 A All I'm saying, Mr. Lirot, is that my concern was 11 Mr. Minton's state of mind. What Mr. Minton's particular 12 concerns were, he wasn't going into detail with me about. I 13 knew, generally speaking, that he was very concerned about 14 the situation that Mr. Dandar had -- or that he felt that 15 Mr. Dandar had put him in. That is what I knew. And that 16 is what I was talking to Mr. Howie about. 17 Q Okay. What exactly did you know about what 18 Mr. Minton was concerned with? You said about the perjury. 19 You said, "That's what I knew." And I'm trying to find out 20 if it is about the agreement and about a check. That is the 21 perjury. The alleged perjury? 22 A Well, what I knew then and what I know now, I'll 23 try and separate the two. 24 Well, I knew -- I for sure knew about the lying 25 about the agreement because I had also done that. You know, 283 1 saying that there was no agreement when there was. 2 Q Okay. 3 A So that I knew about for sure at that time. 4 Q So -- 5 A I also -- 6 Q You know for sure you lied about it in your 7 deposition? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q You lied about the agreement? 10 A Yes. I said that there was none when I knew there 11 was. 12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I just object to 13 counsel cutting off her answers. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 I forget, too, you know, you get in hearings 16 and you break for the weekend and you read 17 depositions and you don't remember whether this has 18 been covered or not. I'm sure it maybe has, but I'm 19 going to ask because I can't remember. 20 What exactly is this agreement? Are we 21 referring to the agreement regarding some proceeds 22 from the lawsuit? 23 THE WITNESS: The bulk of the proceeds. 24 THE COURT: This is this unwritten bulk, 25 substantial, understanding, is that it? 284 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Your Honor, it was the one 2 where the bulk of the proceeds of any judgment would 3 go to the LMT. 4 THE COURT: Right. And that bulk was never 5 defined? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, it would be defined, you 7 know, as far as a percentage, no. 8 THE COURT: And I read this weekend, I thought, 9 the only word ever used was bulk, but that wasn't. 10 I heard it defined now as substantial. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: I have heard it defined as two or 13 three other terms, I think bulk most of the time. 14 The long and short of it, you are talking about some 15 understanding but not a written understanding and 16 not something that is put in legal terms. 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Why would you lie about an agreement if there was 21 or wasn't one? 22 A Mr. Dandar had made it very clear that it was bad 23 for the case to talk about this agreement, that this 24 agreement needed to stop existing because Scientology was 25 using this agreement as something to try to, you know, put 285 1 some nefarious motive on all of us, so we needed to counter 2 this attempt to Scientology's part to make some -- to create 3 the impression of the nefarious motive by making that 4 agreement go away. 5 Q Okay. What nefarious motive? What is wrong with 6 having an agreement? 7 A Well, there wasn't anything wrong. But at the 8 time, especially after Judge Moody left the case and Quesada 9 came on the case, Judge Quesada -- Mr. Dandar started to 10 lose quite a number of motions. And he felt that -- I mean, 11 he felt that Judge Quesada was being blackmailed by 12 Scientology. He felt that the court system had been 13 corrupted by Scientology. He felt that there was a lot 14 of -- you know, Wally Pope he felt was being blackmailed. I 15 mean, the scenario that we were facing was kind of this 16 corrupt court system and this, you know, evil empire 17 corrupting this court system. And we had to counter all of 18 this manipulation of the court by the evil empire by doing 19 everything we possibly could -- it might be easier if he 20 just stood next to you, rather than jumping up and down. 21 THE COURT: That is disconcerting. 22 MR. LIROT: Do you want me to inquire from 23 counsel table? 24 THE COURT: That would be a lot easier. I 25 don't like it and -- 286 1 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Judge. 2 THE COURT: The only reason I'm not fussing 3 here, because I know you came on this case late. 4 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 5 THE COURT: If they were doing it, it would be 6 fussing at them. 7 MR. LIROT: I appreciate your indulgence. 8 MR. FUGATE: For the record, so it is clear, 9 Mr. Dandar was walking back and forth from the 10 podium. 11 THE COURT: Yes, and that is all right. 12 MR. FUGATE: Just for the record. 13 THE COURT: He's counsel and he's -- they are 14 co-counsel here, and I think he's probably letting 15 Mr. Lirot handle this, but obviously Mr. Lirot is 16 not up to the same speed that Mr. Dandar is, so I 17 have no problem. I just don't like people getting 18 up and down, up and down. 19 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 20 Mr. Dandar said he thought Judge Quesada was 21 being blackmailed by Scientology? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 THE COURT: Was he talking -- saying that about 24 me? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, Mmm, yes, your Honor. 287 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Did you know that to be true? 4 A What? 5 Q Was anybody being blackmailed? Did you know? 6 A Mmm, we certainly thought so. 7 Q Why? 8 A Why? Because why else would a judge be making 9 rulings against Mr. Dandar? I mean, what judge in their 10 right mind would be making rulings in favor of Scientology. 11 That is how we felt. So if a judge was making rulings in 12 favor of Scientology, it must be blackmail. That was -- 13 Q Well -- 14 A -- the -- the thinking. 15 Q I guess you have been around the block with 16 Scientology. Is that something that you had seen them do or 17 were aware of them doing in the past? 18 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 19 outside of the scope of -- 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 A To blackmail someone? 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Yes. 24 A No. But I certainly thought it was something 25 that -- 288 1 Q I just -- I don't want to interrupt you, but that 2 is just a yes or no for that one. 3 A Okay. 4 Q So Scientology had done that in the past, yes or 5 no? 6 A Not that I know of. 7 Q You don't have any knowledge of Scientology 8 blackmailing anybody in the past? 9 A Mmm, is there some knowledge I have that you know 10 of? Because if there is, tell me. 11 THE COURT: Well, no, that is what he wants you 12 to answer. If he does, he'll undoubtedly slip it on 13 you and say gotcha. So he's asking you and you need 14 to tell the truth. If you know it, you have to say 15 it. If you don't, you don't. 16 A As I'm sitting here right now, I don't know of any 17 time that Scientology blackmailed somebody. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q How in the heck does this idea come up? You are 20 the one with the familiarity with Scientology. And, you 21 know, as far as this belief, I had some judges rule against 22 me and I don't automatically think my opponents are 23 blackmailing the judge. So how does this come up? 24 A Well, as I testified on Friday, there is a certain 25 degree of deamonizing that was going on. It is sort of 289 1 similar to the way Israel and Palestine are deamonizing each 2 other. The anti-Scientology side was deamonizing 3 Scientology in every possible way, as similar to the way the 4 Scientology side was deamonizing the anti-Scientology side, 5 as well. 6 I'm not saying this was one-sided, but it was -- I 7 mean, there is a large community of people today, as we 8 speak, who -- who see the situation in very black-and-white 9 terms. You know, Scientology is all bad. Mr. Dandar is all 10 good. Mmm, if something happens bad to Mr. Dandar, it is 11 because Scientology has done something bad. I mean, that is 12 just -- it was the thinking -- my thinking, it was the 13 climate in which we were operating. 14 Q So you just thought that this overwhelming cloud 15 of discontent with Scientology justified you to lie about 16 something regarding this amorphous agreement? 17 A No, it wasn't a cloud of discontent. It wasn't a 18 cloud of discontent. It was feeling -- it was a feeling 19 that Scientology was doing things that were illegal, and 20 they were corrupting the court system, and they were putting 21 Mr. Dandar and the case in jeopardy by coming after us. And 22 we had to do whatever we could to protect the case, help the 23 case. And as I said on Friday, there was an overall feeling 24 that the end justified the means. 25 Q Well, how does coming after you jeopardize a 290 1 wrongful death case that you are not a party to? 2 A Have you read -- have you read the pleadings and 3 the depositions of Mr. Minton and me? Mr. Lirot, if you 4 have read these things, you can't possibly be asking me that 5 question. Every question that they were asking of either 6 Mr. Minton or myself was about this wrongful death case. 7 Q Okay. 8 A There was no question about that. 9 Q Well -- 10 A That -- that the attempt was to harm the wrongful 11 death case through Mr. Minton and myself. There was no 12 question about that. And if you read the -- the previous 13 things that have happened in this case, I think that would 14 be clear. 15 And so Mr. Dandar was very, very concerned -- 16 Q Go ahead. 17 A Let me finish. 18 Q Yes? 19 A Mr. Dandar was very, very concerned to make sure 20 neither Mr. Minton nor I said anything that was going to 21 hurt the case. 22 THE COURT: What difference? I'm just kind of 23 curious. If the judges were being blackmailed, 24 there really wasn't much you could do about it, was 25 there? I mean, that doesn't make a great deal of 291 1 sense to me. Because if you back off an agreement 2 or you go forward with an agreement, if the other 3 side is paying off a judge or blackmailing a judge, 4 it doesn't really matter what you do. 5 THE WITNESS: But the way it was working -- in 6 other words, because Judge Quesada -- see, what 7 happened, Judge Moody had been limiting discovery 8 very, very narrowly from Mr. Dandar's side. Then 9 when Judge Quesada took over, he -- he started 10 ruling -- I mean, he just sort of threw out Judge 11 Moody's rulings and allowed for much, much broader 12 discovery of Mr. Minton and me. 13 So the problem that Mr. Dandar was trying to 14 solve was that Mr. Minton and I were being asked a 15 lot of questions in deposition that Judge Moody 16 hadn't allowed us to be asked. But now Judge 17 Quesada was allowing us to be asked. 18 And the feeling was that these questions 19 shouldn't be being allowed to be asked in the first 20 place. So that, you know, our -- you know, we 21 shouldn't be having to answer these questions. 22 And -- 23 THE COURT: So just go on ahead and come in and 24 commit -- I hate to tell you this, ma'am, but all of 25 a sudden, ma'am, it is making no sense. 292 1 But you continue on, Counselor. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q I guess that is my question. Why, if Judge 4 Quesada is making these harsh discovery rulings, would it 5 ever occur to you to lie about an agreement as a way to get 6 out of that? Where do those parallel lines intersect? 7 Please explain that to me. 8 A Well, because -- Mmm, basically what was happening 9 was that the case was taking a very bad turn with Judge 10 Quesada. And the discovery that Judge Quesada was allowing 11 was turning all of the attention onto Mr. Minton and the 12 LMT. And Mr. Dandar was trying to keep the attention from 13 going on to Mr. Minton and me -- or Mr. Minton and the LMT. 14 And -- 15 Q Okay. 16 A -- he was trying to minimize the involvement of 17 Mr. Minton and the LMT in the court's eyes. 18 Q Why? 19 A Because he didn't want -- he didn't want these 20 things to be coming out that were showing -- that would show 21 Mr. Minton's involvement in the case and the LMT's 22 involvement in the case. 23 MR. FUGATE: I object to the speculation, your 24 Honor. She's speculating. 25 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. 293 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Well -- 3 THE COURT: For a little while. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q I have read the depositions. Don't most of the 6 questions talk about the LMT and the money in the LMT and 7 the records of the LMT that just don't have anything to do 8 with the wrongful death case? 9 A Are you talking about my deposition or 10 Mr. Minton's? 11 Q Let's ask you what you know about yours. Wasn't 12 it all LMT? 13 A There were a lot of questions about the LMT. In 14 fact, all of it was about the LMT, including was the LMT 15 going to be getting the bulk of the proceeds of the case. 16 Q Why does that affect the wrongful death case? 17 A Whether the LMT would get the bulk of the 18 proceeds? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Well, as I said, Scientology was claiming that 21 because the LMT was going to get the bulk of the proceeds, 22 this was why -- you know, basically why Mr. Minton was 23 controlling the case, this was why he was so involved in the 24 case and things like that. And Mr. Dandar was trying to 25 downplay those aspects of the case. 294 1 Q Because it wasn't true. Right? 2 A Mmm -- 3 Q It wasn't true, was it? 4 A Excuse me, but yes, it was. Yes, it was. 5 Q That -- your position is that the agreement was 6 true that Mr. Minton was going to get some bulk of the 7 proceeds to fund the Lisa McPherson Trust? 8 A The LMT was going to get the bulk proceeds. 9 Q So what? Why is that a bad thing? 10 A Well, in fact, in -- in -- you know, in the 11 general scheme of things, it's not a bad thing. There is 12 nothing wrong with it. But it was being painted in a very 13 bad light, and Mr. Dandar was very concerned about having 14 that come out, because he was afraid of how Scientology was 15 going to be able to use it to discredit the case. 16 Q But -- 17 A Because they were trying -- 18 Q Weren't they already trying it? 19 I didn't mean to interrupt you. 20 A Go ahead. 21 Q Weren't they already trying to discredit this case 22 by making suggestions that you knew to be false? 23 Let me ask you this? Did Mr. Minton have a 24 nefarious motive in funding or loaning or giving or 25 transferring or in any way giving Mr. Dandar a penny in any 295 1 capacity for the wrongful death case? Is there something 2 wrong with that? 3 A Mmm -- 4 THE COURT: There are two different questions 5 there, Counselor. The first one is did Mr. Minton 6 have a nefarious motive. And I presume that 7 question needs to be answered first. Then the next 8 question, I guess, is there anything wrong with 9 that. I suppose it depends on maybe what the answer 10 is. Maybe -- you know, maybe you don't know. Did 11 Mr. Minton have some bad motive in funding the Lisa 12 McPherson case? Or giving money to Mr. Dandar so he 13 could pursue the case? 14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. He felt like he 15 was, you know, fighting the good fight and, you 16 know, crusading against something that was really 17 bad. 18 THE COURT: And that was Scientology, as far as 19 he was concerned, the Church of Scientology? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: So he gave money to Mr. Dandar, I 22 suppose, as I read many of his depositions, as much 23 as he had given money to other folks involved in 24 some litigation against Scientology, needed money to 25 carry on? 296 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. So I guess that brings you 3 to the second part of the question. 4 Was there anything bad about that? In other 5 words, he had no -- he had no nefarious intention so 6 there couldn't have been anything bad about it, 7 Counselor, so we don't even need to get to the 8 second one. 9 MR. LIROT: Okay. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q So why would you lie about the agreement -- 12 THE COURT: Counselor, asked and answered. You 13 may not like the answer but she answered it three 14 times. 15 MR. LIROT: All right. 16 THE COURT: I know what her answer is, and it 17 will be the same if you ask it six times so really I 18 don't need it again. 19 MR. LIROT: I'll move on, Judge. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q So you talked about the agreement. 22 What else was it that concerned you? Checks? 23 Money? Was that the additional concern of perjury? 24 A What concerned me? 25 Q Yes. 297 1 A Because what I already said was what concerned me 2 was Mr. Minton's state of mind. 3 Q Okay. But you said his state of mind, as I 4 understand it, was based on concerns about the impact of 5 committing perjury in these cases. Is that correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q All right. And we've identified what I understand 8 your testimony to be, two issues about that perjury, one 9 about this agreement, whether there was or wasn't an 10 agreement, and the other is about some checks. Is that 11 correct? 12 A Mmm, I believe -- I believe so. 13 Q Okay. 14 A There may have been other things but -- 15 Q What would those be, what other things? 16 THE COURT: What he wants to know is everything 17 that you knew that was bothering Mr. Minton when you 18 made this call to Mr. Howie. 19 THE WITNESS: Right, I know. 20 THE COURT: I think we're talking about the 21 perjury that you mentioned, and you told him one was 22 the agreement, one was the checks. 23 And is there anything else that you know that 24 he committed perjury about, in general terms? 25 THE WITNESS: I think at that time those were 298 1 the two things I knew about. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. After that, do you know of anything 4 else? 5 A Well, now, as I sit here, I know of other things. 6 But I think at that time, that was what he had talked to me 7 about. 8 Q What other things would those be? 9 A That I know about now? 10 Q Sure. 11 A Mmm, I believe he testified -- Mmm -- I would have 12 to review his affidavit. But at that time in January those 13 were the two main things. I don't really remember, as I'm 14 sitting here, what else. But I think there are other things 15 covered in his affidavit. 16 Q Would you agree the two big things are this 17 agreement and the check? 18 A Well, the two things that I knew about in January 19 were those two things. 20 Q Okay. Now, the Judge was right, I had talked 21 about the agreement. Let's talk about the check. What 22 check was it he seemed to be concerned about? 23 A Mmm, I don't recall that he was very specific 24 about this with me. He just was very, very upset with 25 Mr. Dandar because he had perjured himself about how much 299 1 money he had given to the case. 2 Q Do you know on what basis he felt he had perjured 3 himself? 4 A I don't believe he went into much detail with me 5 about that. But by that time, January of 2002, he was -- 6 Mmm -- very upset with Mr. Dandar. 7 Q Okay. Did you have knowledge that the Church 8 already knew about a significant sum of money that 9 Mr. Minton had tendered in some fashion to Mr. Dandar? 10 The Church already knew Mr. Dandar received some 11 money from Mr. Minton. Is that true? 12 A I'm sure that's true. 13 Q Okay. Over a million bucks, does that sound like 14 a fair round number? 15 A I believe they did. I believe they did. 16 Q So the Church already knows that Mr. Minton -- and 17 I'll just say gave, for practical purposes, without that 18 reflecting any legal analysis of the money -- Mr. Minton 19 gave Mr. Dandar over a million dollars and the Church 20 already knew all about that. Right? 21 A I think Mr. Minton loaned over a million dollars 22 to the estate would be more accurate. 23 Q Okay. All right. But it's no secret that there 24 is money flying around. Is that correct? 25 A That there is money flying around? 300 1 Q That it is no secret -- please, I don't want to be 2 flip. 3 A That was a little flip. 4 Q At that point the Church of Scientology was well 5 aware that Robert Minton, in some form or another, had put 6 over a million dollars into the wrongful death suit 7 involving Lisa McPherson? 8 A Yes. 9 Q So they already knew that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So what difference would more money make? What 12 possible difference, in your mind, would getting more money 13 make if they already know about a million dollars? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q I don't, either. Why lie about it? 16 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor, I object to 17 the gratuitous comment. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 MR. LIROT: I won't argue. I'm sorry. 20 THE COURT: We don't need any editorializing. 21 Save that for me. 22 MR. LIROT: I apologize, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: I think what he's trying to say -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I wasn't clear. 25 THE COURT: I think this is what he's trying to 301 1 say: If the Church already knew that Mr. Minton had 2 given over a million dollars, any way you want to 3 look at it, to assist in funding this case, why 4 would they want to lie about more? In other words, 5 a million dollars is a lot of money. And we now 6 know we are talking about two more checks, one for 7 $500,000, one for $750,000. Those are the two main 8 checks. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, there was one for 500 and 10 one for 250, and the one for 250 had not been 11 written yet -- 12 THE COURT: One for 500. So I guess the 13 question was, if the Church already knew that 14 Mr. Minton had given, to assist somebody, over a 15 million dollars, why would it matter if he had given 16 him, at that point, a million-five? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I think that is 18 a question that Mr. Minton would better be able to 19 answer than I. 20 But -- but as I understand it, Mr. Dandar had 21 not reported the $500,000 check to the Court and had 22 asked Mr. Minton not to report the $500,000 check to 23 the Court. Why he asked him not to report it, I 24 don't know. 25 THE COURT: So -- so, if I understand you 302 1 correctly, Mr. Minton was doing a favor for 2 Mr. Dandar. He didn't know anything -- he wasn't 3 thinking how that would affect the case; he was 4 thinking Mr. Dandar said, "I haven't reported it so 5 I don't want you to report it." He was trying to do 6 his friend, Mr. Dandar, a favor. 7 THE WITNESS: And, Mr. Dandar, you know, why it 8 would make a difference, $500,000, more or less, I 9 can't answer that question. But -- I mean, all I'm 10 telling you now is what I have been told by 11 Mr. Minton. 12 THE COURT: Right. 13 THE WITNESS: You know. But what I understood 14 from him was that this was also part of this attempt 15 to try to minimize Mr. Minton's involvement in the 16 case. Why $500,000 would do that one way or 17 another, I don't know. But, you know, Mr. Dandar 18 wanted him not to report that money. Mr. Dandar 19 told Mr. Minton that he wasn't reporting it because 20 he was trying to minimize Mr. Minton's involvement 21 in the case, as far as I understood. I may be wrong 22 about that. But -- 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Well, I want to explore what you did know. I 25 guess you responded to the judge it was two checks, one for 303 1 500 and one for 250? 2 A What I was explaining to the judge is that at the 3 time when you are talking about, the $250,000 check had not 4 been written yet. 5 Q So we're talking about one check for $500,000? 6 A Yes. 7 Q After it's already common knowledge that 8 Mr. Dandar has gotten over a million from Mr. Minton? 9 A I think you said that before. 10 Q But you agree with me on that? 11 A I think I already did. 12 Q Okay. Was there any order for Mr. Dandar to 13 provide evidence or -- or do you know of any reason 14 Mr. Dandar would have had to say anything about the $500,000 15 check? 16 A Apparently so. Apparently -- but again, I'm 17 probably not the best person to ask this. But from what I 18 understood, he made some sort of a proffer to the Court and 19 had not included that check. 20 Q Were you following the case closely at that point 21 in time? 22 A No. 23 Q All right. What were you occupying yourself with 24 at that point in time? 25 A At which point? 304 1 Q During the time this check changed hands? I guess 2 this is May of 2000? 3 A I was working at the LMT. 4 Q So did -- when did Mr. Minton tell you that he had 5 lied about this one check? 6 A After the LMT was closed down, I believe -- or, 7 no -- Mmm, perhaps -- I'm not sure when a deposition came up 8 about that. It may have been at the end of the summer of 9 2000 or end of 2000. I'm not really sure when it first came 10 up for him. 11 Q I'm sorry, so my time frame is we have a $500,000 12 check that is not drawn on Mr. Minton's account. Are you 13 aware of that? It doesn't have Mr. Minton's name on it, it 14 is just a $500,000 check? 15 A I am now. 16 Q You are now? And it was May of 2000 or 17 thereabouts, right? 18 A As I understand it, yes. 19 THE COURT: Can we establish something? Do we 20 know now if -- matter of fact, I would like to know 21 if this check is from Mr. Minton or wasn't. Do we 22 know that as a matter of fact yet? 23 MR. LIROT: We don't know that, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Minton says it is. He 305 1 testified it was his money. 2 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Dandar knew it was. 3 THE COURT: But, I mean, we don't have an 4 agreement from both sides that there is some number 5 that equates back to some bank and that bank says 6 that is an account registered to Robert Minton? 7 THE WITNESS: I think -- 8 THE COURT: Wait a second, I'm asking the 9 lawyers now. 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would just respond from 12 our perspective, we've heard testimony, but we don't 13 have anything other than the testimony of Mr. Minton 14 regarding that, and we're still not even sure 15 exactly what he said about that check. As we 16 recall, in looking at the -- and I'm sure they'll 17 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the testimony 18 was, "I caused it to be issued," was his testimony. 19 Now, whether that means it was his or he put the 20 money somewhere, we don't even know. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think the record of the 23 testimony before Judge Baird was that he had caused 24 the checks to be issued and that he -- that it was 25 from his account, and it went to Mr. Dandar and he 306 1 gave it or handed it to Mr. Dandar. 2 THE COURT: Of course, Mr. Minton admitted to 3 committing perjury? 4 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 5 THE COURT: So we have that -- we can't 6 necessarily just assume everything that he said was 7 true. Maybe what he said before was true. We don't 8 know. 9 I'm asking you, do you have any proof that is 10 his money? 11 MR. FUGATE: I think -- 12 THE COURT: I'm not asking what he would say. 13 I'm asking you, do you have any proof that is his 14 money? 15 MR. FUGATE: It's my understanding that is his 16 money and that he produced a copy of the check to 17 indicate it was his money. 18 THE COURT: Where did he produce it? 19 MR. FUGATE: At the hearing. There is a copy 20 of the check produced in the Baird hearing. 21 THE COURT: Well, that doesn't have his name on 22 it. I saw that. That is a bank check. 23 MR. FUGATE: You asked me a question. That is 24 my answer. 25 THE COURT: So you don't have proof it is his 307 1 other than his word? 2 MR. FUGATE: That's right. 3 THE COURT: All right. So we don't know if 4 it's his money or not yet. Other than he says it 5 is. 6 MR. LIROT: Fine. 7 THE COURT: Let me ask you something, while I'm 8 thinking about it, if I may, ma'am. 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, he did cause that check to 10 be produced by calling his bank and having copies 11 from his bank sent to him -- 12 THE COURT: I want to know if we have something 13 from that bank that says this account -- this money 14 came from an account that is registered in the name 15 of Robert Minton. If it doesn't -- 16 MR. FUGATE: I don't have anything. 17 THE COURT: I just want to know if you had that 18 kind of proof. If you don't, that is all I need to 19 know. Thank you. Mr. -- I noticed in reading 20 depositions of Mr. Minton I heard that -- well, 21 let's put it this way, in reading the testimony of 22 Mr. Dandar, Mr. Dandar indicates that this money, 23 according to Mr. Minton, came from some third party, 24 unknown anonymous source. And I felt that was 25 fairly outrageous that anybody would believe you 308 1 could get $500,000. To me, that is a huge sum of 2 money, from somebody that nobody knew from Europe. 3 And so as I'm reading this deposition of 4 Mr. Minton, I see where Mr. Minton said over and 5 over the same thing about LMT. Which is your 6 corporation. That you got $300,000, because that is 7 the money he put in, from some -- I can't remember 8 who this guy is, some fellow, apparently also an 9 anti-Scientology person, with a German name. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Lund or something like that. 12 MR. DANDAR: Andreas Heidal-Lund.-- 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Then LMT got a $500,000 anonymous 15 donor from someplace in Europe, is that true? 16 THE WITNESS: At that time, that is -- 17 THE COURT: I'm asking you now, is that true? 18 THE WITNESS: No, it's not. 19 THE COURT: Where did the money from? 20 THE WITNESS: From Mr. Minton. 21 THE COURT: So Mr. Minton forgot to tell us he 22 lied about that, too. 23 Proceed. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Now -- 309 1 THE COURT: That is something difficult, that 2 is another one of these anonymous things that I 3 thought was about as weird as what I had heard 4 Mr. Dandar say. But apparently that is something 5 Mr. Minton likes to say. So it may not be so weird. 6 Apparently he likes to say it. He said it under 7 oath at least once, if not twice, and I don't 8 believe he recanted that. So you best be hurrying. 9 Proceed. 10 MR. LIROT: All right. 11 THE COURT: I thought that was weird when I 12 read it for the second time. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Ms. Brooks, apparently you did not know about that 15 check at the time that -- let me back up a moment. 16 You said it's a relatively recent revelation that 17 the check Mr. Minton testified about not coming from him 18 actually was his money? 19 A No. I don't believe that is what I said. If I 20 did, that is not correct. 21 Q Well, when did he tell you that he had lied about 22 that money, the $500,000 check? 23 A That is -- I don't remember when he went into 24 deposition after it happened. I know that he told me about 25 the money that he had given Mr. Dandar very soon after he 310 1 gave it to him in May of 2000. 2 Q This is the $500,000? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And he told you it was his money? 5 A Yes. 6 Q All right. Were you there -- 7 A He told Mr. Dandar it was -- 8 Q How do you know? 9 A Mmm -- 10 Q I'll ask it another way. Were you there when 11 Mr. Minton said, "Here is $500,000"? Were you there? 12 A I don't believe so. 13 Q You have no idea what Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar? 14 A Only what he told me. 15 Q Only after the fact. So my question is, what do 16 you know specifically Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar upon the 17 tender of the $500,000 check? 18 A Only what he told me he said. 19 Q Okay. Who told you that it was his money? 20 A Mr. Minton. 21 Q All right. Did the Church tell you it was his 22 money? 23 A Mmm, I don't believe so. What do you mean? When? 24 Q I'm -- 25 A Ever? 311 1 Q Did they know? 2 A Sorry? 3 Q Ever? Did the Church ever say, "We know this 4 $500,000 is Mr. Minton's"? 5 THE COURT: Are you talking about during these 6 confidential meetings that went on? 7 MR. LIROT: That would include that, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Why don't you include that because 9 that would be the most -- the time she might have 10 heard it. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Okay. During these meetings did you ever hear 13 from the Church, "Mr. Minton, we know this is your money, we 14 know you lied about it, you are in some hot water here"? 15 A No. 16 Q Never once? 17 A Never once. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Mr. Minton was the one who brought that up. 20 Q Did you lie about that check in your deposition? 21 A I don't believe it came up in my deposition. 22 Q Okay. So the only lies you told were about the 23 Lisa McPherson Trust agreement for the bulk of the money or 24 something like that? 25 A Well, I don't know if you see my recantation, but 312 1 it was also regarding some discovery. 2 Q The discovery regarding what? 3 A Well, if I can refer to my -- 4 THE COURT: You can. 5 THE WITNESS: Can I? 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 A There were unedited videotapes that were asked for 8 which I knew existed and didn't provide. 9 There were also hard drives that were removed 10 before the special master's inspection. 11 THE COURT: Who did that? 12 THE WITNESS: Mmm, that was done at my 13 direction and Mr. Minton's. 14 THE COURT: Well, that is fine. But who did 15 it? 16 THE WITNESS: I believe Mark Bunker did it. 17 THE COURT: Who destroyed the evidence that was 18 left out in the hallway? 19 THE WITNESS: That wasn't destroyed, your 20 Honor. It was removed and taken somewhere else. 21 THE COURT: So it's available? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Well, don't destroy it. 24 THE WITNESS: I won't, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. 313 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q So -- 3 THE COURT: And that is an order. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q We are talking about your deposition again. Now, 7 do you recall being asked anything generally about donations 8 to the Lisa McPherson Trust? 9 A Yes. I was asked about those funds. And at that 10 time I did not know that they were from Mr. Minton. He said 11 they came from an anonymous source. 12 Q So, basically, you thought this money came from an 13 anonymous source. What kind of check did you get? 14 A Mmm -- 15 THE COURT: Which are we talking about now? 16 MR. LIROT: We are talking about the anonymous 17 donation to the Lisa McPherson Trust that Ms. Brooks 18 testified in her deposition, yes, we received this 19 huge anonymous donation. I guess the question 20 posed -- again, Judge, the deposition will speak for 21 itself, but as I recall the question, did Mr. Minton 22 give you this huge check for the Lisa McPherson 23 Trust. And I think the testimony generally was, no, 24 we got this anonymous donation. 25 THE COURT: Counsel, you better being talk to 314 1 your client because I don't think she recanted on 2 this, and I believe if she said this in her 3 deposition and it came from an anonymous source and 4 it came from Mr. Minton, it is false testimony. It 5 may not have been at the time. It may be what is 6 happening. But generally, I think that she's sort 7 of recanted everything up to today's date and 8 corrected the record. And, frankly, I think that I 9 corrected that record. 10 MR. FUGATE: And -- 11 THE COURT: Certainly it wasn't corrected by 12 the Church of Scientology, and it wasn't corrected 13 by anybody else. I believe I got this witness to 14 correct it. Not that it surprised me after I saw 15 about the other anonymous $500,000 and where it 16 purportedly came from. 17 Quite frankly, I don't know whether either of 18 the so-called anonymous $500,000 checks came from 19 Mr. Minton or they didn't. But if they did, and she 20 knew about it, and she testified it came from some 21 anonymous donor because they were trying to cover up 22 for tax purposes or whatever else, she better fix 23 it. 24 Continue on. 25 MR. FUGATE: Could we just identify what 315 1 deposition he's talking about? I think there were 2 several. 3 THE COURT: I -- 4 THE WITNESS: It was August 15, 2001, I 5 believe, when that came up. And, your Honor, that 6 is the reason why I didn't recant that, but I will. 7 THE COURT: You didn't know about it at the 8 time? 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't know about it when I 10 testified. 11 THE COURT: But you knew about it when you were 12 making all these corrections to your testimony? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: I don't want you to leave this 15 proceeding without making all of the corrections to 16 the testimony that is wrong. And if, in fact, there 17 is something that we just haven't picked up, the 18 Church hasn't picked up or one side or another 19 hasn't picked up and it is wrong, just because it 20 might benefit or behoove Mr. Minton or you to leave 21 that record wrong, I don't want it left wrong. 22 THE WITNESS: I understand, your Honor. I 23 didn't have any intention of -- 24 THE COURT: All right. But I didn't see 25 anybody correct it. 316 1 THE WITNESS: Well, that hasn't been corrected, 2 and you are right about that. 3 THE COURT: And it wasn't corrected by 4 Mr. Minton, either, I don't believe. Is that true? 5 I don't know if you know what all he corrected -- 6 THE WITNESS: I think you may be correct -- 7 right about that. 8 THE COURT: I don't want to come up with any 9 more things, because as I said, I spent all my 10 nights reading about this excitement. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, that is the only thing I 12 know about that hasn't been covered. 13 THE COURT: I can probably find it, page and 14 line here, for all of you. 15 Continue on. 16 MR. LIROT: Very good. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q While we were talking about your depositions, are 19 there any other -- I think the judge already mentioned this, 20 are there any other things you said that you knew were 21 untrue when you were being asked questions during the 22 deposition? 23 A Actually, I didn't know that was untrue when I was 24 being asked the question in deposition. 25 Q I think -- 317 1 THE COURT: I brought it up at this time only 2 because it relates to this check, this $500,000 3 check. If you remember when we started this 4 hearing, I was somewhat suspect of the answer given 5 by Mr. Dandar; that being that he believed somebody 6 who just said, "Well, here is some $500,000 from an 7 anonymous source." I mean, nobody has given me a 8 nickel from some anonymous source. If somebody 9 gives me something, they want me to know they have 10 given it to me. So do I. I'm not too good at this 11 altruistic donation. 12 But the deal is is when I was reading the 13 depositions and I saw that Mr. Minton testified that 14 LMT had gotten this $500,000 check from this 15 anonymous source, from Europe, I think it was 16 Europe, maybe it was -- was Switzerland, I'm 17 thinking to myself, maybe he goes around telling all 18 these people this is what happened. He certainly 19 said it under oath, so I don't know why he wouldn't 20 say it to Mr. Dandar. 21 Maybe the guy is trying to cover for taxes. 22 You remember, I gave him an exemption, Fifth 23 Amendment, because I kind of figured that is what is 24 going on. 25 But we can't have it. I don't want any more 318 1 surprises. We have to get it all straightened out 2 here. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know of any other 4 surprises, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Well, good. Okay. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Do you remember being asked if Mr. Minton had 8 given you any money? 9 A Mmm, I don't specifically, but I'm sure I was. 10 Q Do you remember being asked if Mr. Minton had 11 helped you buy a car or a house or -- or things along those 12 lines? 13 A Mmm, I don't specifically, but you can show it to 14 me. 15 Q Okay. I'll get back to that in a second. 16 So let me ask you again about your testimony. 17 In deposition you are testifying about an 18 anonymous donation to the Lisa McPherson Trust, and at that 19 point in time, your testimony is today it was absolutely 20 truthful, because I didn't know, I thought this was an 21 anonymous donation. 22 Do you remember anything about how you got that 23 money? 24 A Well, as I recall, the check, it came in a check 25 from Andreas. 319 1 Q Okay. 2 THE COURT: Let's -- let's stop right now so I 3 can identify the places now. The $500,000 anonymous 4 check to LMT from Europe, and I have a note here 5 that according to Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks said the 6 same thing on her deposition. I did not read her 7 deposition. 8 THE WITNESS: I think it was a wire transfer. 9 THE COURT: Well, it is, the same old thing 10 that happened that Mr. Dandar got, a wire transfer. 11 Right? Isn't that the same? 12 MR. FUGATE: No, he got a bank check. 13 THE COURT: Oh, he got a bank check. Okay. 14 Wire transfers. Bank check. Doesn't have a name on 15 it. Right? 16 MR. DANDAR: Correct. 17 THE COURT: Anonymous. Maybe. It certainly 18 didn't have Mr. Minton's name on it. Let's put it 19 that way. 20 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Page 141, Page 151 on the 22 deposition taken 9/18/01, and it is talked about 23 again in the last deposition, which I call the 24 so-called recant -- it wasn't recantation. We call 25 it the purge deposition. Here it is, Page 116 to 320 1 117, "Some unidentified source gave LMT $500,000 2 drawn on some bank. Bank draft from an anonymous 3 source, $500,000." 4 So twice, under oath, Mr. Minton talked about 5 this. And so all of a sudden, what Mr. Dandar said 6 Mr. Minton told him doesn't sound nearly so odd, 7 because he said he lied in the deposition under oath 8 in front of a whole bunch of lawyers. They didn't 9 apparently think it was so odd. Continue on. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Did -- do you remember testifying at some point 12 that Mr. Minton didn't contribute to the purchase of a house 13 or a car down here in Florida? 14 A Well, I don't remember what -- I remember those 15 two things coming up. And I believe I testified no, he 16 didn't buy me the car. I bought it with my own money. 17 And, no, he didn't buy me the house. I bought it 18 with my own money. And -- Ken -- 19 Q It is all right. Time out, he's just whispering 20 to me. 21 A It is really distracting. 22 Q If that distracted you, I apologize. 23 A You know, I suppose you can say that I -- you 24 know, all of the money I have been getting since 1998 is 25 from Mr. Minton. So when I said no, you know, I believe 321 1 that was the truth because I got the money out of my account 2 to pay for the car. Now, you know, Mr. Minton has been 3 paying me all along so, you know, perhaps I was -- you 4 know -- 5 THE COURT: I don't think we have to go there 6 unless, of course, he bought the house for her. But 7 as far as a car, you were working LMT -- 8 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't working at the LMT 9 at that point. 10 THE COURT: You weren't? 11 THE WITNESS: But he was paying me already. I 12 mean, Mr. Minton -- 13 THE COURT: What has he been paying you for? 14 THE WITNESS: Mr. Minton has been paying me 15 since 1998. I have been working for him since 1998. 16 I have also been having a relationship with him 17 since 1998. 18 THE COURT: So he was helping you to have your 19 own funds? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 THE WITNESS: So, okay, when I said he didn't 23 buy it for me, maybe that was -- maybe I shouldn't 24 have said this, since he was the source of all my 25 funds. But what I meant by it was, you know, it was 322 1 my money and I paid for it. And that is how I felt. 2 And that is what I believe. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Well, when was this house purchased? 6 A Mmm, November of 2001 -- or 2000. Sorry. 7 Q Okay. Have you ever filed -- 8 A Or actually 1999. 9 Q Okay. Obviously if there is some title or 10 something, that would have the date on it, a deed or -- 11 A Yes, I believe it was November 25, 1999. 12 Q Okay. 13 A When it closed. 14 THE COURT: I tell you what, my court reporter 15 is reporting realtime, and since we're getting into 16 a house or whatever it is all about, it would seem 17 like a good time to take a break. Fifteen minutes. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 19 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 20 ______________________________________ 21 THE COURT: You may be seated. 22 You may continue. 23 MR. LIROT: Thank you, your Honor. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Ms. Brooks, when we left off you were describing, 323 1 I guess, the purchase of your home here in the bay area. 2 And I think you said you bought it on November 25, 1999. Is 3 that correct? 4 A That is what I said. Yeah. 5 Q Okay. What was the downpayment for that house? 6 A Mmm, approximately 50,000. 7 Q And that money was given to you by Mr. Minton and 8 put in your account, so, therefore, it was your money? 9 A Yes. 10 Q When you testified in deposition if he bought you 11 a house, by him giving you the money, putting it in your 12 account and you use your check, that is not him buying it 13 for you. Right? 14 A Well, I had money in my account. I wrote a check 15 for it. 16 Q Okay. What was the purchase price for the house? 17 A Oh -- Mmm -- perhaps 250 or 260,000. 18 Q This was November 25, 1999? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Had you declared bankruptcy at some point during 21 the '90s? 22 A In 1995. In December. Yes. 23 Q And in, I guess, 1997, you have the cat clinic? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Thereabouts? 324 1 A Yes. 2 Q What was your income in 1997, if you recall, 3 general terms? 4 A Probably maybe $60,000 or $70,000. Not more than 5 that. 6 Q Okay. How much did you make off the cats? 7 A Not very much. 8 Q So you were making a ton of money writing all 9 these declarations and decrying, I guess, what you felt were 10 the characteristics of Scientology that you were troubled 11 by? 12 A In 1997, actually, I think we had some income from 13 a project that Vaughn was working on. 14 Q What kind of project -- 15 A Which wasn't legal work. 16 Q What kind of project? 17 A It was a book about Scientology. 18 Q And how much money came in from that? 19 A As I recall, it was perhaps 3,000 a month, 20 something like that. 21 Q Okay. Whatever happened to that project? 22 A It didn't end up being completed. 23 Q How is that? Why? 24 A Mmm, well, I believe that the premise that he was 25 working on didn't really turn out to be the case, which 325 1 turned out -- which he found out during the course of 2 research. 3 Q Now, you talked about, I guess, when you met 4 Mr. Minton. Did Mr. Minton respond to you relative to an 5 E-Mail plea that you had made, an Internet plea that your 6 work with Scientology was wiping you out financially? 7 A No. Vaughn posted a lengthy message talking about 8 what was happening to us, basically said that people would 9 understand why we were not going to do the work anymore. 10 Q Okay. 11 A And Mr. Minton responded to that Internet posting. 12 Q Okay. And in that Internet posting you set forth 13 the reasons that I guess you were going to abandon what in 14 your affidavit you refer to as anti-Scientology work? 15 A Mmm, no. Vaughn wrote this thing. I didn't write 16 it. But he was kind of careful not to say that, actually. 17 Q Okay. Did you indicate your financial status in 18 that Internet posting? 19 A I'm sure he did. 20 Q He did? 21 A I'm sure he did. I don't recall it in detail, but 22 I'm sure he did. 23 Q And would the gist of that be, "Hey, we're being 24 wiped out by the Scientologists financially"? 25 A Mmm, as I recall, he basically laid out a 326 1 chronology of the events that had happened. And -- and that 2 would have included that we had to find another place to 3 live and that we were in financial trouble. 4 Q Okay. When you met Mr. Minton, did you have a 5 job? 6 A Only the sanctuary. 7 Q Okay. And -- 8 THE COURT: That is the cat sanctuary? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Okay. And did Mr. Minton -- I guess Mr. Minton 12 was paying you before the formation of the Lisa McPherson 13 Trust?@AUDIO 14 A Yes, matter of fact, he, in 1997, actually gave 15 both of us some money. Then in 1998, he began to support 16 me. 17 Q What was your job? He supported you? Or he paid 18 you? 19 A Mmm, he was supporting me in 1998. And I was -- 20 you know, it was sort of both. He was supporting me and I 21 was also doing work with him. 22 Q Okay. What kind of work were you doing with him? 23 A Mmm, I was -- became pretty much his personal 24 assistant, I guess you would say. And I was doing things -- 25 I was taking care of various aspects of the -- of his 327 1 anti-Scientology work, you know. I arranged for Jesse 2 Prince to be -- to go out to Los Angeles to work with 3 Mr. Leipold. I maintained correspondence for him with 4 various people. 5 Q Now -- 6 A Things like that. 7 Q -- so as sort of a liaison with Mr. Minton in 8 other cases involving the Church of Scientology. Is that 9 correct? 10 A No, I wouldn't characterize it that way. But 11 Mr. Minton had an interest in the wrongful death case; the 12 Wollersheim case, which is a case in California; the FACTNet 13 case, which was a case I worked on. 14 (Spelling requested by the court reporter.) 15 THE WITNESS: F-A-C-T-N-E-T case. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Can you -- I guess describe -- 18 A And -- 19 Q Describe for me -- 20 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Were there other 21 cases that you didn't tell us about? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I was going to say that he 23 had me set up Jesse Prince in Colorado working with 24 FACTNet, which was one of the cases that we were 25 doing. 328 1 THE COURT: But those were the cases Mr. Minton 2 had an interest in, the ones you told us about? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 And Mr. Minton and I went on the board of 5 FACTNet at that point. 6 THE COURT: So our record is clear here, go 7 ahead and tell us what that stands for, FACTNet. 8 THE WITNESS: Mmm, Fight Against Coercive 9 Tactics Network. FACTNet. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q What was FACTNet? 12 A It was -- well, it is, I think, still, it's sort 13 of an electronic library of information concerning 14 Scientology that was established by a man named Lawrence 15 Wollersheim. 16 Q Is it just -- does it just involve Scientology? 17 A Yes. 18 Q How did Mr. Minton get involved in that? 19 A Mmm, I think he met Mr. Wollersheim perhaps in 20 '96, I'm not sure. I think it's in his affidavit. 21 Q So Mr. Minton had already met Mr. Wollersheim 22 before he met you. Is that correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q All right. Now, did Mr. Minton, after he found 25 you and your husband -- and I guess this is what I'll say -- 329 1 at a time when you were involved in the sanctuary and I 2 guess the zoning people are coming out, did Mr. Minton ever 3 come out and visit you and your husband? 4 A He did right before Thanksgiving in November of 5 1997. 6 Q Okay. So Mr. Minton visits you in November of 7 '97. And then you buy a house in November of '99. 8 In that two years, did he buy a house for you and 9 your husband? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Where was that house located? 12 A That was on Vashon Island in Washington state. 13 Q Is that near Seattle? 14 A In Puget Sound, about half an hour from Seattle by 15 ferry. 16 Q Was that a nice house? 17 A It was wonderful. It was a house where the 18 sanctuary for the cats could be. 19 Q Okay. Did that comply with the zoning 20 regulations? 21 A Yes, it did. 22 Q All right. Now, after that, how was it that you 23 became -- you have a new house in Puget Sound, and now you 24 are buying a house in Florida. 25 In the transition there, what services did you 330 1 provide for Mr. Minton? 2 A Well, starting in early 1998 we began to have a 3 personal relationship. And -- 4 THE COURT: When was that, ma'am, again? 5 THE WITNESS: In early 1998. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. 7 A And he also began to rely on me more and more for 8 helping him with his -- the anti-Scientology work he was 9 doing. And I was doing various things for him in that 10 capacity. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q All right. By a personal relationship, is that a 13 sexual relationship? 14 A Yes. 15 Q All right. Were you still married to Mr. Young at 16 the time? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Was Mr. Minton married at the time? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Did you tell Mr. Young about this relationship? 21 A Yes, I did. In June. 22 Q Okay. June of 1998? 23 A Yes. 24 Q All right. And at some point I guess you left the 25 house in Puget Sound, and where did you go after that? 331 1 A I left the house in Puget Sound in June of 1999 2 and moved to an apartment in Atlanta. 3 Q Did Mr. Minton pay for that apartment? 4 A As I testified earlier, Mr. Minton was supporting 5 me from 1998 on. 6 Q Okay. Did you have a job in Atlanta of any sort? 7 A I was working for Mr. Minton. 8 Q Okay. Doing the same thing that you have 9 described to the Court? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Now, when -- when did you -- I guess do you 12 still -- I guess you have a residence in Atlanta now? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q All right. Is this an apartment? Or is this a 15 house? 16 A It's a townhouse. 17 Q Okay. Who owns that townhouse? 18 A I do. 19 Q Is that in your name? 20 A It's in my name. 21 Q Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: I believe that was already 23 testified to. But -- 24 THE COURT: Sustained. Actually, I don't 25 know -- I know she said she owned one, so I assume 332 1 it was in her name. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Where did you get the money to buy that townhouse? 4 A From Mr. Minton. 5 Q Okay. And just getting back to the Florida money. 6 Did you have any money to put into a bank account in Florida