======== To: tilman@berlin.snafu.de Subject: From: dev-null@no-id.com Date: 19 May 2002 04:30:36 -0000 -------- IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 13, 2002. Afternoon Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________ KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320 839 Volume 7, 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT 6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B 7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108 Attorney for Plaintiff 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 9 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 10 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 11 12 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 18 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 19 20 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue 21 St. Petersburg, Florida. 22 Counsel for Robert Minton 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 840 Volume 7, 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Mr. Rick Spector Mr. Allan Cartwright 8 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller 9 Mr. Ben Shaw Ms. Joyce Earl 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 841 Volume 7, 1 (The afternoon session began at 2:05 p.m.) 2 THE COURT: I have a couple of things. 3 These documents are here pursuant -- 4 Mr. Moxon, this is the one that you talked 5 about on Friday. 6 This came to me Friday, and I just said, 7 "Well, I'll just give everybody a copy on Monday." I 8 don't remember. Apparently, it's something I must 9 have signed an order for because it's here, request 10 under the Hague Convention of the taking of evidence 11 abroad in civil or personal matters. 12 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor. I'll see if we 13 can find the order -- 14 THE COURT: Okay. Anyway, it says: 15 "Referring to your request dated" -- I'm going to 16 guess it's 11/16/01 -- "the Royal Marine Administer of 17 Justice and the Police have the honor to inform 18 you" -- I like this; these folks do nice work -- "the 19 honor to inform you that your request has been 20 complied with. Please find enclosed documents." 21 Then it's signed by some folks, and this is 22 all in some language other than English. I don't know 23 what it is. But is there any reason why I just can't 24 hand everybody a copy? 25 MR. DANDAR: Well, because of the Second KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 842 Volume 7, 1 DCA's opinion, I believe this has to do with financing 2 or money or things like that. 3 THE COURT: I have no idea. 4 MR. MOXON: This has nothing to do with 5 Mr. -- 6 THE COURT: Is this funds? 7 MR. MOXON: -- funds from Mr. Minton to 8 Mr. Dandar. This is the -- this is the money that was 9 testified to that went from Helda Lund, this Operation 10 Clambake, to LMT. 11 MR. DANDAR: That's right, that's right. 12 THE COURT: The $300,000? 13 MR. MOXON: That's right. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we need to see where that 16 came from. 17 THE COURT: There is one document -- there's 18 a whole bunch of stuff. It's all, as I said, in some 19 language -- I guess this would be Norwegian. 20 MR. MOXON: Yes, I think so. 21 THE COURT: But there's one thing that looks 22 like -- it's got numbers on it, and it looks like 23 there's something called 299815, and then there's some 24 other little numbers. So maybe that's it. 25 MR. MOXON: Okay. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 843 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: But I don't know what to do with 2 it. I mean, was this supposed to be in the court 3 file -- 4 MR. MOXON: No. 5 THE COURT: -- or supposed to go to counsel 6 or what? 7 MR. MOXON: We made -- I've got the order 8 here. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. DANDAR: But I think you ought to 11 address it with Mr. Howie, Mr. Minton's counsel. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. DANDAR: Oh, there he is. Okay. 14 MR. MOXON: Normally, you, of course, would 15 go to another state, and the state would just go 16 through the discovery procedures in that state. And 17 that's what happened in Norway. 18 But we're informed by Norwegian counsel that 19 because the request was an order, essentially a 20 request from the Court, like a normal out-of-state 21 commission would be, they wanted to send the documents 22 back to the Court, to the requester. And so our 23 counsel provided the Norwegian court the documents. 24 They got them from Helda Lund, gave them back to the 25 Court, and we were informed the Court was going to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 844 Volume 7, 1 send them to you. 2 THE COURT: Okay. The only thing I would 3 ask -- this was in January -- apparently this is Judge 4 Beach's initials that says, I guess, a stay of 60 days 5 for execution or extension of this order is granted. 6 MR. MOXON: Yes, in case they wanted to file 7 a writ, but they didn't. 8 THE COURT: Did you file any writ? 9 MR. DANDAR: I had nothing to do with it. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, do you know -- this 11 says UC counsel of record. I just got a whole bunch 12 of documents here that come -- that I can't read, and 13 I was just prepared to hand them out. 14 This copy is no good -- not that I can't 15 read them, but this copy isn't even -- it looks like 16 when Ms. Rudd made a copy that perhaps that one came 17 out bad. Maybe they're all that way. See what the 18 original looks like. 19 Do you want to look at this? 20 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 21 MR. MOXON: In fact, your Honor, here's the 22 other order. We had a hearing in front of Judge Beach 23 on this. 24 THE COURT: There's two documents in here. 25 MR. MOXON: The language of the order was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 845 Volume 7, 1 approved by both Mr. Dandar and -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. MOXON: -- whoever was representing LMT 4 at that time. 5 THE COURT: Oh, I see the problem with this 6 little -- this original is very light, and when 7 Mrs. Rudd copied it, it didn't turn out very well. 8 But you all can see even on the original, that's very 9 light. 10 MR. MOXON: Yes. But it's readable, I mean, 11 if you could read it. 12 THE COURT: That's the original. I don't 13 know that you can read this -- see? I guess that's 14 the best. 15 MR. MOXON: No, I can't read that. Maybe we 16 can make a new copy of this. 17 THE COURT: Well, you study that if you 18 will, Mr. Howie. 19 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Good luck. 21 MR. HOWIE: Well, I have -- 22 MR. FUGATE: "Howie" is Norwegian, isn't it? 23 THE COURT: I'll just keep them here until 24 he's had a chance to look at them, but it does look as 25 though there's been a court order. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 846 Volume 7, 1 MR. MOXON: I said that was your order, but 2 I see it's Judge Beach's order. 3 THE COURT: I like this. It says: "Circuit 4 Court of the Sixth Judicial Circuit presents its 5 compliments to the appropriate judicial probate of 6 Norway." No wonder they wrote back and said they had 7 the honor to inform me. 8 MR. MOXON: We copied those from the Hague 9 Convention. 10 THE COURT: Kind of nice. It's very -- 11 MR. DANDAR: All orders should start out 12 that way. 13 THE COURT: You can have a seat, Mr. Howie. 14 MR. HOWIE: Thank you very much, ma'am. 15 THE COURT: You may take your time. 16 MR. DANDAR: For the record, the plaintiff 17 does request a copy of that document. 18 THE COURT: Okay. And defendant obviously 19 wants a copy of it. And I'm not sure why Mr. Howie's 20 reading it. I just had a copy for everybody, but -- 21 MR. DANDAR: Oh. 22 (Ms. Brooks entered the courtroom.) 23 THE COURT: I'm looking at the documents 24 requested. I can understand why funds transferred 25 from Operation Clambake to the LMT would be KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 847 Volume 7, 1 appropriate to this case, but it says then "or Robert 2 Minton." What would that have to do with this case? 3 MR. MOXON: Well, it has a lot to do with 4 the case. 5 THE COURT: Okay. What? 6 MR. MOXON: I can't read the documents in 7 Norwegian. I don't know. 8 THE COURT: No, I'm saying why would Judge 9 Beach sign an order allowing this Norwegian place to 10 send money that this man, whoever he is, sent to 11 Mr. Minton? I mean, I understand it went to LMT. 12 MR. MOXON: It's a question as to where 13 these funds are actually from, whether they're from 14 Mr. Minton, rather, or to LMT or to Mr. Minton. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Well, as I said, 16 Mr. Howie, you tell me if you have a problem with 17 this. I've got copies for everybody that I've made. 18 I've got the original. 19 MR. MOXON: I'd like to get the original if 20 I could, your Honor. I could make better copies. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. MOXON: Then I could make sure everybody 23 gets -- 24 THE COURT: Okay. Yes, you saw what I was 25 saying -- it was a very light copy, and it didn't come KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 848 Volume 7, 1 out very well. 2 MR. MOXON: Okay. 3 THE COURT: So I have those here, if someone 4 will remind me I have them. Mr. Howie can read it. 5 Ms. Brooks -- 6 Is it "Brooks" or "Brook"? 7 MS. BROOKS: Brooks. 8 THE COURT: -- Brooks is back with us, so 9 let's go on ahead. 10 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF STACY BROOKS (RESUMED) 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Ms. Brooks, during the break, Mr. Fugate was nice 14 enough to break out the documents we've got into two 15 separate sections, I guess the documents that were provided 16 to Minton and the documents that were provided to you. And 17 what I'll do is I've got about -- it looks like to me like 18 almost three-quarters of an inch. Does this look to be 19 generally the size of the document packet that was provided 20 to you on the 15th? 21 A Well, if there were some that were folded over, 22 it might be. 23 Q Fair enough. All right. I'm going to go ahead 24 and just hand you -- since I just have the one copy, I'm 25 just going to clip them as we go through them. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 849 Volume 7, 1 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I could ask for 2 continuing permission to approach the witness? 3 THE COURT: You may, as long as you've got 4 something in your hand. I always tell the lawyers, if 5 you don't have something in your hand, the lawyers -- 6 the witness wonders why you're coming. 7 MR. LIROT: Okay. 8 THE COURT: Having been a witness a few 9 times myself, it's disconcerting if you don't have a 10 document. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Ms. Brooks, I've got the first segment of the 13 packet given to me by Mr. Fugate. It appears to be an 14 excerpt of your deposition of April 15th, 2001. Does that 15 look to be one of the documents that you were provided on 16 April 15th by Mr. Fugate? 17 A Possibly. It refers to the secret agreement, so 18 I would say so. 19 Q All right. Well, what does it -- I mean, there 20 is a portion highlighted there, is there not? 21 A Yes. 22 Q All right. What does that question highlighted 23 actually ask? 24 A It refers to the secret agreement, if I knew 25 about it. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 850 Volume 7, 1 Q Well, why don't you read me the question. 2 A "Do you have any knowledge" -- well, you want me 3 to edit out all the stumbling? "Do you have any knowledge 4 or do you know what the agreement is between Mr. Dandar and 5 Ms. Liebreich?" 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, and who? Mr. Dandar? 7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Okay. That doesn't have anything to do with any 10 secret agreement, does it, between LMT and Mr. Minton or 11 the Trust or anything. That's Mr. Dandar and 12 Ms. Liebreich, correct? 13 A Yes, and I didn't include this in my -- 14 Q Okay. 15 A -- affidavit. 16 MR. LIROT: The second one, Judge, actually 17 we took time to make a copy of this one. I'll give a 18 copy to counsel. 19 And, Judge, I'll hand this to the witness. 20 This is a September 7th, 2001, letter, from apparently 21 Teresa Summers to Ms. Brooks, which looked to be the 22 second component of the packet that Mr. Fugate 23 represents was handed over to Ms. Brooks on 24 April 15th. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 851 Volume 7, 1 Q Ms. Brooks, what is this letter from Ms. Summers 2 to you on September 7th, 2001? 3 A It's a letter that I found on my desk on the 4 morning of September 10th, which was a Monday morning, 5 which was also accompanied by another letter in which 6 Ms. Summers quit. And this letter is a very lengthy letter 7 in which she accuses me and Mr. Minton of a number of 8 various criminal acts, things like that. 9 Q Okay. There are a couple paragraphs -- this 10 looks to have been an exhibit to somebody's deposition, 11 although it was cut off. It says, on the bottom of the 12 first page, Defendants' Exhibit Summers. Do you know that 13 this was ever made an exhibit of a deposition or anything? 14 A Well -- 15 THE COURT: Maybe somebody here could help 16 us out. It looks like it. 17 MR. MOXON: It was. Ms. Summers produced it 18 in her deposition. 19 THE COURT: And so this was made an exhibit 20 to her deposition? 21 MR. MOXON: That's correct. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. LIROT: And I assume that deposition was 24 taken in this case? 25 MR. MOXON: That's right. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 852 Volume 7, 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Okay. So this is a long letter. And there seem 3 to be two paragraphs. On page 2, the only thing circled 4 there is paragraph No. 2. Did you circle that? 5 A No. It was circled when I got it. 6 Q Okay. And -- 7 THE COURT: When was Ms. Summers' 8 deposition? 9 MR. MOXON: When? 10 THE COURT: M'hum (affirmative). 11 MR. MOXON: I don't know. I can ask Sarah, 12 your Honor. It was about five months ago. 13 THE COURT: Her deposition? 14 MR. MOXON: About five months ago. 15 THE COURT: Oh, five months ago. I thought 16 you said about five minutes ago. 17 MR. MOXON: No. 18 THE COURT: Five months ago, okay. 19 MR. FUGATE: We were busy over lunch. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. MOXON: It's a little more, 22 September 5th. 23 THE COURT: September 5th? 24 MR. MOXON: Yes. 25 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think, quite simply -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 853 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: No, it couldn't have been 2 September 5th. 3 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll tell you what, Judge. 4 The documents -- 5 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, October 16th. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 MR. LIROT: All right. The documents that 8 we were provided actually have excerpts. At least one 9 deposition of Ms. Summers was taken on September 5th 10 of 2001, and there looks to be another deposition 11 taken of Ms. Summers on October 16th of 2001. 12 THE COURT: And then there was a third one? 13 MR. LIROT: And if there was a third one, 14 there is no except in what we were provided. 15 MR. MOXON: That's the third one, your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: Pardon me. 18 MR. MOXON: The October deposition was the 19 third. There are three very short versions of her 20 deposition. October was the last one. 21 THE COURT: I was just given 9/5 and 22 then 10/16, so -- 23 MR. MOXON: There's one about -- oh, a year 24 earlier. 25 MR. DANDAR: June 13th, 2001, I took her KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 854 Volume 7, 1 deposition, the first one. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Ms. Brooks, you told me that the only two -- I 5 guess paragraph 2 and paragraph 7 on this letter were 6 circled. And apparently the letter was provided to you 7 with those circled? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Was it accompanied by any instruction that those 10 are the only issues that were in this letter that needed to 11 be addressed by you? 12 A No, it wasn't -- as I said earlier, the things 13 that were highlighted or circled or whatever, was somebody 14 else's idea of what I might possibly have to include in a 15 recantation. 16 Q Okay. Did you go through this entire document 17 relative to what you were considering to put in an 18 affidavit to recant earlier testimony? 19 A Yes, I did. 20 Q All right. And I guess I'll look at paragraph 21 No. 2, since that one says -- and I'm quoting a letter 22 here. It says your stated purpose of dissolving the LMT as 23 a corporation: 24 So that you and Bob would not have to 25 testify as to financial matters also places me KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 855 Volume 7, 1 and all of the other staff members at risk. The 2 argument that you just don't want Scientology to 3 know about the finances takes on new meaning in 4 light of Item No. 1. It also brings up the 5 question of the validity of the LMT, if it can be 6 dissolved at once in order to protect you and 7 Bob -- once again, with little care for 8 employees. 9 What importance, if any, did you place on that 10 sentence? 11 A None. 12 Q Okay. And why was the LMT dissolved? 13 A I believe I testified about this earlier. The 14 LMT was dissolved around the same time that I ordered 15 Jesse -- Mr. Minton and I ordered Jesse to withdraw as an 16 expert, that I withdrew as a witness, that Mr. Minton 17 informed Mr. Dandar that he wasn't going to fund the case 18 any longer, and basically we disbanded the LMT in a further 19 effort to try to distance ourselves from this wrongful 20 death case. 21 Q Well, I think your earlier testimony was that the 22 LMT did a lot more than participate in any activity with 23 the wrongful death case. Isn't that true? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And Ms. Summers did a lot more than participate KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 856 Volume 7, 1 in the wrongful death case. Isn't that true? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q All right. What about paragraph No. 7? 4 THE COURT: Are we introducing this or is -- 5 MR. LIROT: Yes, I would like to -- 6 THE COURT: -- this an exhibit or what? 7 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll go ahead and mark 8 it. 9 And I believe we're up to No. 16? 10 THE CLERK: 15. 11 MR. LIROT: 15. 12 THE COURT: So you're referring to -- these 13 references have been to Defendants' -- Plaintiff's 15? 14 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge. 15 THE COURT: Do you have any objection to 16 this being introduced? 17 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor. I think for 18 the record that it's my understanding that the 19 circling was done at the deposition, if that makes any 20 difference to anybody. But other than that, I have no 21 objection to it. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I suppose if that 23 becomes important, you can put somebody on for that -- 24 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 25 THE COURT: -- if that's important. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 857 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I could make a 2 comment? 3 THE COURT: Sure. 4 THE WITNESS: This letter was full of lies 5 and innuendo, which ended up on the Internet, and was 6 the beginning of an unbelievable smear campaign that's 7 going on against us by Ms. Summers and other people 8 who are now part of Mr. Dandar's trial team. And -- 9 THE COURT: Well, we don't need this, so 10 just know you can't get into that. Maybe they'll ask 11 you something about it, and you can answer it. But I 12 don't need that kind of a discourse without a 13 question. 14 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll just ask one final 15 question on the letter. Was there -- 16 THE COURT: That reminds me. I'm getting a 17 couple things in the mail, anonymous. You know, "You 18 might want to see this," some Internet postings. 19 Typically I just would throw those things out. I 20 mean, I wouldn't bog the court file down. I'm happy 21 to put them in the court file. I mean, I don't pay 22 much attention to anonymous stuff off of an Internet 23 Web site. 24 What do you want me to do with it? 25 MR. FUGATE: You're getting them addressed KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 858 Volume 7, 1 to you -- 2 THE COURT: I got one. It came certified. 3 And, you know, Sue just stamps it in and puts it on my 4 desk. And it was an anonymous letter to me saying, 5 "You might want to read" -- I don't know what it said, 6 to tell you the truth. "You might want to read the 7 following," something about Mr. Hubbard and his -- 8 I'll show it to you all, and you tell me what to do -- 9 I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't get more. 10 It's not unusual for a judge to get mailings on a 11 high-profile case. I usually just throw them out or 12 file them in the court file. In this case, I normally 13 would just file it in the court file. If that's all 14 right, that's what I'll do. 15 MR. MOXON: One suggestion, your Honor. If 16 you keep the envelope, the post office can trace it 17 and see who is doing it. It's certified. 18 THE COURT: Well, this has an address on it. 19 MR. MOXON: Okay. 20 THE COURT: It's actually an address like 21 Clearwater, as I recall. But I normally put that in 22 the court file too. I mean, I just put the whole 23 thing in the court file. 24 I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say, do 25 you all want copies of this? This is not the kind of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 859 Volume 7, 1 stuff that I normally would think my secretary would 2 make copies of. 3 MR. FUGATE: I think for both sides to take 4 a look at as far as -- I don't think -- I mean, 5 there's so much paper in this case. 6 THE COURT: Well, I kind of figured. And 7 nobody would ever know what it was there for. So -- 8 but what I would like to do is just show it to you 9 all, and if you don't have any need for it -- 10 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't mean to speak for 11 them, but I certainly don't. 12 THE COURT: I will throw it away or file it 13 in the court file. I think I told my secretary just 14 before lunch to make a copy of this so you all can see 15 what I'm talking about. That was the first one I got, 16 but it wouldn't be surprising to me, if this case 17 ended up in trial, that I started getting mail. It's 18 not uncommon. 19 MR. LIROT: Thanks, Judge. 20 THE COURT: What I would really have to 21 worry about is if this was a death penalty case. Then 22 I do have to worry about it, because I have to be sure 23 everybody gets copies. And I put in an order that I 24 have -- you know, that can become bothersome. But in 25 a case like this -- anonymous Internet postings. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 860 Volume 7, 1 Worse than whatever it is they could send me, I 2 suppose. 3 Continue on. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Ms. Brooks, on the first page of that letter, I 6 guess Ms. Summers talks about in paragraph 1, or at least 7 the No. 1, it says, "The revelation in your recent 8 deposition of $800,000 that was donated to the LMT from 9 foreign sources and then every penny of that money was 10 delivered to Bob Minton is difficult to make sense of." 11 Down at the bottom, it continues to say, in the 12 next full paragraph, "I cannot make sense of this. If Bob 13 was the sole source of LMT funding and our salaries came 14 from the LMT account, how then can he be given $800,000 15 from this account and then turn around and claim there's no 16 money to pay our salaries?" 17 What does that refer to? Did Mr. Minton take 18 $800,000 out of the LMT account? 19 A No. 20 Q Was there a period of time that you gave 21 Mr. Minton money out of the LMT account? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. Can you tell me how much that was? 24 A $800,000. 25 Q Okay. And what was that for? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 861 Volume 7, 1 A It was to repay monies that he had put into the 2 LMT. 3 Q Was this -- was it hidden by you at some point 4 that all the money had come from Mr. Minton? 5 A I wasn't aware of it at that point. 6 Q Did you ever recant that statement anywhere else? 7 A That's already come up in this testimony. And 8 that was done. 9 Q Was there anything else in Ms. Summers' letter 10 that you felt appropriate to put in your two affidavits 11 recanting earlier testimony? 12 A No. 13 Q So you looked at this and said, "I've got this 14 one handled. Let's go on to the next one"? 15 A I looked at this and gave it the legitimacy that 16 it was due. 17 Q All right. The next document in that packet 18 appears to be an excerpt from a videotaped deposition of 19 you individually on September 7th of 2001. And again, that 20 document was given to me with the highlighted portions just 21 as they are. 22 THE COURT: What -- are you marking this? I 23 mean, we need a record here. Is this a number? 24 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll go ahead and we'll 25 put this entire packet in as Plaintiff's Exhibit KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 862 Volume 7, 1 No. 16. I don't have any copies of it. We just got 2 it this morning, and I only had time to make a few 3 copies of some of the things that I thought were more 4 interesting. 5 THE COURT: Well, why don't you make it then 6 a composite exhibit? 7 MR. LIROT: I will do that, Judge. We will 8 make this Plaintiff's Composite Exhibit No. 16. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, is the letter -- is 10 Ms. Summers' letter part of that composite -- 11 MR. LIROT: We'll make -- we'll make 12 Ms. Summers' letter a part of that. If you would like 13 to renumber -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we just make it a 15 Composite Exhibit 15? 16 THE COURT: 15, and Ms. Summers' letter will 17 be part of it. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 19 THE COURT: And I'll count on you making a 20 copy to the clerk and keeping your copy. 21 MR. LIROT: Very good. 22 THE COURT: If you think I need it for 23 whatever reason, why, you can make me a copy as well. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Now, describe to me that next item. You KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 863 Volume 7, 1 obviously -- I'm going on the belief that you looked at all 2 these documents that were provided to you and that you used 3 these to analyze -- to in fact comply with your desire to 4 make the record straight. Right? 5 A This was part of what I used. 6 Q Okay. What is the -- what's the information in 7 that particular -- I guess what I'll -- I guess this will 8 be Composite Exhibit 15, Sub C, we'll call this. And we'll 9 call the first -- the first excerpt A, Ms. Summers' letter 10 is B, and this will be 15C. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I just ask for -- 12 if we're going to do that, if we could go back to A 13 and just identify what pages, at least, of the 14 deposition there are so the record is clear. And then 15 on C, just -- because these are excerpts -- what pages 16 there are in the deposition that are in front of her. 17 I think that would be useful. 18 These are not the entire depos, I don't 19 believe, are they? 20 MR. LIROT: No. 21 THE COURT: I think the only thing this is 22 being put in the record for is just to show what she 23 was given, so -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: And just for the clarity of 25 the record, I would ask -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 864 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Whose deposition and what date? 2 Maybe you could tell us the pages. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. This is the cover page, 4 page 1 -- 5 THE COURT: Right. 6 THE WITNESS: -- deposition of Stacy Brooks, 7 August 15th, 2001, 1:35 p.m. 8 THE COURT: Pages? 9 THE WITNESS: Page 1, page 49, page 93, 94, 10 95, and 149. 11 THE COURT: Thank you. 12 Is that what you wanted? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. And each time we go 14 through a transcript, if we could do that. 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. WEINBERG: That would be useful. 17 MR. LIROT: I'll do that, Judge. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q So C would be your deposition of September 7th, 20 2001. And I don't have that copy. Can you tell the Court 21 what pages I've handed you that were part of this packet 22 provided to me. 23 A Page 1, page 40, and the reporter's deposition 24 certificate page. 25 Q And what was it that you reviewed in that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 865 Volume 7, 1 document that had any impact on the affidavits recanting 2 testimony that you offered? 3 A There was a document that Mr. Minton received 4 from Mr. Dandar. And Mr. Dandar had told Mr. Minton not to 5 tell anyone that he had gotten it from Mr. Dandar. And so 6 when I was asked, "Do you know" -- well, it says, "Do you 7 aware [sic] Mr. Minton got this report," but I think it 8 meant to say, "Do you know where Mr. Minton got this 9 report?" 10 And I said, "No. That was false." 11 So in my first recantation affidavit, it's 12 covered in Point B on page 2. 13 Q Okay. Do you know what the document was that you 14 referred to? The document in your recant affidavit. 15 A Oh. Yes. It was a report written by Brenda 16 Hubert concerning Lisa McPherson. 17 THE COURT: Report written by whom, ma'am? 18 THE WITNESS: A woman named Brenda Hubert. 19 THE COURT: Oh, that's that thing? 20 MR. FUGATE: That's the Brenda Hubert 21 knowledge report -- 22 THE COURT: Knowledge report, okay. 23 THE WITNESS: Right, the knowledge report. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q How was it that you were made aware of that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 866 Volume 7, 1 document? 2 A Mr. Minton told me he had it. 3 Q Anything else? Did he tell you how he got it? 4 A I just said he told me he got it from Mr. Dandar. 5 Q Fair enough. 6 The next one I have is Composite Exhibit 15D, 7 which is an excerpt of the videotaped deposition of Stacy 8 Brooks of June 23rd, 2000, and pages -- 9 THE COURT: How many depositions did you 10 have to give? 11 THE WITNESS: Many, many, many. 12 THE COURT: Wow. Maybe I should add you to 13 the list of the ones that probably had too many 14 depositions taken. 15 THE WITNESS: I was hoping you would do 16 that, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I thought you only 18 had one, so -- 19 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Well, then I'll add you to the 21 list as well. If you were deposed in two separate 22 cases about the same thing, that shouldn't have been 23 allowed to happen. And that's the fault of either me 24 or Judge Baird or both of us, but I'm not sure we were 25 exactly understanding that this was happening on both KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 867 Volume 7, 1 ends of the county. Certainly I was not. And I 2 apologize to you. That should not happen. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q All right. Ms. Brooks, just to make the record 6 clear, this is 15D, June 23rd, 2000 -- 7 THE COURT: And so that's clear, I'm not 8 being critical of counsel here. There are separate 9 counsel involved in these cases. But the deal is that 10 we shouldn't have witnesses coming in, take -- have 11 long depositions being taken about the same 12 information, when really they should be -- two lawyers 13 ought to be able to be there at the same time, one of 14 them ask questions, somebody else listen in, and the 15 deponent inconvenienced one time. 16 And I'm sure if Judge Baird and I had 17 realized that this was happening, he and I, one or the 18 other, would have said, well, you know, we're not 19 going to have this. It's not fair to the folks. 20 I can only assure you I really didn't 21 realize that this was happening. At least if I did, 22 I'm not aware of it. So that's what I was referring 23 to. And I'm sure Judge Baird would feel the same way. 24 One person to be deposed, there's two lawyers, well, 25 you tell the lawyers to consolidate these things, take KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 868 Volume 7, 1 them together. 2 I'm not suggesting if only one is there that 3 the other doesn't have a right to take a deposition. 4 We don't normally put witnesses through duplicate, 5 very lengthy depositions. 6 MR. LIROT: We certainly acknowledge that, 7 your Honor. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q What I'm referring to here is 15D, June 23rd, 10 2000. And just for the record, it says here, "Do you know 11 if Mr. Minton" -- I guess I'll give the page numbers. It's 12 the cover page, page 126, and then the certificate page of 13 146. 14 And the question here was whether or not 15 Mr. Minton provided any money to Dell Liebreich. Your 16 answer was: "I don't know." 17 The question was: "Do you know if there's any 18 agreement with Dell Liebreich and Mr. Minton with respect 19 to the potential proceeds of this case?" 20 Your answer was: "Well, that's been discussed, I 21 know that." 22 Then question, which isn't a question: "It 23 certainly has." 24 And then Mr. Bolt says: "Now, that's a yes or no 25 question, Ms. Brooks." KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 869 Volume 7, 1 And the answer was: "To be honest, I'm not 2 sure." 3 Now, this was in June of 2000, and I'll hand that 4 to you so you can look at that. And that was part of the 5 packet that was provided to you relative to the affidavits 6 that you prepared to recant earlier testimony. And I think 7 it's pretty clear that you used that in some fashion to 8 recant earlier testimony in some of your affidavits, right? 9 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 10 testifying. And also for point of clarification, I 11 think the entire -- the entirety of the depositions 12 were also provided. So this is somewhat confusing, 13 and I don't know -- 14 I don't want to interject myself into the 15 cross, but don't you have copies of each of her 16 depositions as well, as well as the highlighted 17 portions? 18 MR. LIROT: We don't know what you gave her. 19 That's only what we're going by. 20 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'll go back and -- 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: -- let the submission, but I do 23 object to the testifying. 24 THE COURT: That would be sustained. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 870 Volume 7, 1 Q Well, I guess my question was, Were these 2 excerpts given to you, or did you get the entire 3 depositions for those dates? 4 A I believe I had more than this, for sure. 5 MR. LIROT: Well, then, Judge, I need some 6 clarification. Is counsel's position that the whole 7 deposition was given to Ms. Brooks and that just these 8 highlighted portions were given to us? 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm confused because I 10 don't know what's over there now. I know that the 11 request was both to both counsel for Ms. Brooks and 12 counsel for Mr. Minton for the entire depositions. 13 And as I sit here, I know that all of Mr. Minton's 14 depositions were given to him. I do believe -- and I 15 thought Ms. Brooks' were. If we need to give those in 16 their entirety to them, we will. But Mr. McGowan can 17 clear that up. If we only gave excerpts, we only gave 18 excerpts. 19 Do you remember? 20 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I believe that 21 there were excerpts, but I believe separate from the 22 excerpts were the entire depositions. 23 THE COURT: So but there were excerpts? 24 These were excerpts? 25 MR. McGOWAN: There were excerpts, and then KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 871 Volume 7, 1 there were depositions. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. LIROT: And, Judge, I think we requested 4 the excerpts. We were interested in what was 5 highlighted. That's what we were interested in. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's what I'm looking 7 at here, just this highlighting. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q The next document I'm going to hand to you is 11 apparently a notice of filing plaintiff's witness list, 12 which appears to be an April 17th, 2000, witness list in 13 the wrongful death case when it was still in Hillsborough 14 county. And it looks like the only highlighted portion 15 here is the name Teresa Summers. What significance would 16 that have being placed in this packet? 17 A Well, it was my understanding -- and I'm going to 18 refer to documents that you haven't yet put in evidence 19 that should be in your package. It was my understanding 20 that the reason this was included was that there was 21 testimony by me in another excerpt, which we haven't talked 22 about yet, about whether or not I knew Teresa Summers or 23 something. And I can't remember exactly, and I'd have to 24 look at it again. But there was -- clearly, someone had 25 thought that I was -- that I had lied about my knowledge of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 872 Volume 7, 1 Teresa Summers in some way. But I did not include this 2 because I didn't feel that that was the case based on the 3 dates of the various documents that I reviewed. 4 Q Okay. Well, this might clear it up. I guess 5 Composite Exhibit 15 Sub F appears to be the cover page or 6 at least page 4 of Ms. Summers' deposition of June 13th of 7 2000. And just the -- I guess the next page is page 5, and 8 it just has one page of her direct examination. And 9 there's nothing highlighted on this. Does this refresh 10 your memory as to the significance of those documents? 11 A I believe I was given more than this, but -- 12 Q I think you were too, actually. I see what I'll 13 call Exhibit 15G. It appears to be the deposition of Stacy 14 Brooks from June 23rd of 2000 -- oops. And it's the cover 15 page, and then pages 254, 255, and then the signature page 16 of 283. Let me hand you that, because it looks like 17 there's certain questions asked of you regarding 18 Ms. Summers' in this excerpt. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think he said it, but 20 the presumption is that 15E was little witness list. 21 Is that what he said it was? 22 MR. DANDAR: Yes, that's what he said it 23 was. 24 MR. LIROT: Yes. 25 A Okay. I should probably read this to the Court KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 873 Volume 7, 1 so that she can understand what I'm about to say. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: The highlighted part: 4 The question: "Teresa Summers, you claim, 5 has come to you?" 6 And my answer, "Is she a witness? She has 7 contacted us. We did not contact her." 8 THE COURT: Maybe I don't -- that's -- 9 THE WITNESS: It's to the LMT. 10 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 11 Has come to you as an employee -- oh, this 12 is to be taught -- in other words, LMT, you told me 13 the other day that one of the things that LMT did was 14 to counsel people -- 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: -- who left the Church. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Is that what you're talking 19 about? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: And the question was: "When 23 was this?" 24 Answer: "Recently." 25 And then question: "When?" KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 874 Volume 7, 1 And then my answer: "You know, this is 2 going to get this girl in trouble. I don't like 3 this." 4 And then the counsel said: "She's 5 testified." 6 And then Mr. Dandar said to me: "We've 7 already deposed her. She's been deposed." 8 And then I say: "Oh, okay." And then: "So 9 what's the question?" 10 And the question: "When did you talk to 11 Teresa Summers?" 12 And the answer: "I haven't talked to Teresa 13 Summers. I haven't talked to Teresa Summers." 14 And the question: Who talked to Teresa 15 Summers in the LMT?" 16 And my answer: "Nobody. She sent an e-mail 17 or maybe a letter." 18 And question: "When? When?" 19 And the answer: "Actually, I think she sent 20 it -- well, it was to Jesse, and it was received maybe 21 two days ago." 22 Okay. So that was the testimony. And I 23 believe that someone -- or, I thought at the time that 24 someone may have thought that I was lying about not 25 knowing her at that time, but in fact what I said was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 875 Volume 7, 1 true -- 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Okay. 4 A -- because -- well, it was true. 5 Q Okay. Composite Exhibit 15H is an excerpt of 6 Ms. Summers' deposition of September 5th, 2001, with a 7 cover page, pages 36, 37, and the signature page of 8 page 105. And I guess there are only two questions. There 9 on page 36, they ask about Ms. Summers having worked for 10 the LMT, and the other question is about Ms. Summers making 11 complaints about the Church. And I'll hand you this. 12 THE COURT: I thought she was a consultant. 13 No. Was this somebody else? 14 MR. DANDAR: This is a former Scientologist. 15 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 16 MR. DANDAR: Not retained by the plaintiff. 17 THE WITNESS: But on his witness list. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 THE WITNESS: On the plaintiff's witness 20 list. 21 THE COURT: Well, was she the one -- I 22 remember when you were going through, at somebody's 23 request, a group of people who had worked for LMT -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. She was one of them. 25 THE COURT: -- and one of them in particular KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 876 Volume 7, 1 you said had really done a lot of work and done 2 some -- 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. That was Teresa Summers. 4 THE COURT: Okay. That's where I heard the 5 name then. 6 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to read the 7 highlighted part every time? 8 THE COURT: I don't. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 MR. LIROT: No. 11 THE COURT: I'm not saying -- if counsel 12 wants you to, but . . . 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Now, I take it that the explanation there about 16 your knowledge of Ms. Summers coincides with the dates of 17 that excerpt. Is that correct? 18 A I'm sorry, I -- say that again. 19 Q You said that you had not said anything 20 untruthful about your knowledge -- 21 A Oh. 22 Q -- or relationship with Ms. Summers at the LMT, 23 and they speak about dates in that certain highlighted 24 section. 25 A Right. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 877 Volume 7, 1 Q So that's consistent with you? 2 A Yes. This was September 5th, 2001 -- 3 Q Right. 4 A -- and this is Teresa's deposition on 5 September 5th, 2001. 6 Q And that's her deposition. So obviously you 7 don't know what she testified to. That's just some point 8 of reference for you, right? 9 A Right. 10 Q All right. The next sub exhibit I have is 15I, 11 and this is an excerpt from the September 7th, 2001, 12 deposition of Stacy Brooks as representative of the Lisa 13 McPherson Trust. And this is page 1, the cover page; 14 page 60; page 107; page 108; and then the signature page. 15 And I'll hand this document to you. There looks 16 to be only two things about -- one being the LMT office 17 being operated out of Mr. Dandar's office, and I think you 18 already testified to that. Wasn't it true that the only -- 19 the only thing she did at Mr. Dandar's office was try to 20 find office space for the LMT, make phone calls from there 21 for a little while? 22 A Well, we operated out of -- yes, it is true to a 23 certain degree. We did operate out of Mr. Dandar's office 24 until we had our own office. So part of what I was doing 25 was -- you know, Mr. Dandar let us work out of his office KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 878 Volume 7, 1 to find our office. 2 Q Okay. And there was something else in that 3 segment about a check going to Mr. Spector? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you know who Mr. Spector is? Can you tell the 6 Court? 7 A He's been in the courtroom, your Honor. He's 8 Mr. Dandar's videographer and a private investigator who 9 works for Mr. Dandar. 10 Q And I think the question was, Did the Lisa 11 McPherson Trust ever pay Mr. Spector for anything? 12 A Right. And I said I don't think so. 13 Q And then I think -- 14 A But I had to correct that in my first recantation 15 affidavit because I found a check for $168. 16 Q Right. Well, we'll call that Exhibit 15J. And 17 that looks to be, at least to some extent -- a little bit 18 bad copy -- but at least a copy of the check to Mr. Spector 19 for $168? 20 A Correct. 21 THE COURT: From LMT? 22 MR. LIROT: Pardon me? 23 THE COURT: From LMT? 24 THE WITNESS: From LMT, yes, your Honor. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 879 Volume 7, 1 Q What was that check for? 2 A As I recall, it was for a copy of a videotape of 3 one of my depositions. I think that's what it was for. 4 THE COURT: Did the Church have the LMT 5 checks? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Have those been produced at some 8 time? 9 MR. DANDAR: Deposition (nodding 10 affirmatively). 11 THE COURT: Okay. So these were some checks 12 pursuant to a request to produce? 13 MR. DANDAR: At the deposition of the bank. 14 THE COURT: Oh, okay. One of those ones 15 that says if -- in other words, they give you the ten 16 days to object, and if you don't object, then the 17 people send the -- 18 MR. DANDAR: No -- 19 THE COURT: -- documents. There's no -- no, 20 this is a deposition. 21 MR. DANDAR: It's a real deposition. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Because there wasn't 23 anything wrong with it. That check was given 24 pursuant -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 880 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: -- to the work that had been 2 done by him -- 3 THE WITNESS: Oh. 4 THE COURT: -- for LMT -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: -- for you or -- 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 THE COURT: But you had said you didn't 9 think so and -- 10 THE WITNESS: Right. 11 THE COURT: -- you were just correcting your 12 testimony. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q All right. Ms. Brooks, the next one will be 15K, 17 which appears to be excerpts of your deposition of 18 August 15th, 2001. And it has the cover page, page 1; 19 page 62; page 63; page 72; and then the signature page, 20 149. And there look to be two -- two areas highlighted 21 here. One highlighted is a question. It says: "You have 22 no statements of any, slash, no written statements by any 23 of the witnesses in this case?" 24 And your answer was: "No." 25 And then there's another highlighted part. It KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 881 Volume 7, 1 says -- your question was -- or, your answer, I guess: 2 "Why not? I don't have any reason to have any statements 3 by witnesses. I'm not involved in this case." 4 What was there you needed to recant about that? 5 Did you review those particular excerpts? 6 A Can I see that one? 7 Q Yes, you can. There was a lengthy part I want to 8 get to, but I guess I'll retrieve it back after you answer 9 the first part of my question. 10 THE COURT: I think if that's your only copy 11 you'd better make sure you get all that stuff back if 12 you're going to copy it for the clerk. 13 A Okay. Sorry. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q I haven't gotten to the second part yet, just 16 about the witness statements. Anything there that you were 17 made aware of that you needed to recant? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. What was it in that particular statement 20 that you had to set the record straight on? 21 A Well, this was a document production line of 22 questioning. And this is -- I need a few pages earlier, 23 but I believe this was referring to the unedited videotape, 24 either the unedited videotape or information -- or data on 25 our hard drives. And I did have to inform the Court that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 882 Volume 7, 1 the hard drives were removed and they've now been turned 2 over to the special master. And the unedited videotape 3 also needs to be turned over to the special master. 4 Q Okay. 5 THE COURT: I kept reading about this in 6 this series of orders signed by the judge. I don't 7 even know what they are. 8 MR. McGOWAN: I do. There were a series 9 of -- I don't know how many. They were unedited 10 videotapes at the LMT. My understanding is -- 11 THE COURT: Unedited what? 12 MR. McGOWAN: Videotapes. Of what, I don't 13 know. 14 THE WITNESS: I can explain. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. McGOWAN: But there was a body of 17 videotapes that existed. They were removed from the 18 LMT, my understanding it is, by John Merrett. 19 I have made numerous attempts to contact 20 Mr. Merrett and get those back. He was supposed to 21 call my office today. As of the lunch break, he had 22 not. We were trying to retrieve those to get them 23 into the hands of the special master. What is on 24 those, I have no idea. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Brooks, what are KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 883 Volume 7, 1 they? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, in fact the entire body 3 of unedited videotapes is the property of our 4 videographer, whose name is Mark Bunker. And a lot of 5 the unedited videotapes are things that he videoed 6 before he was doing anything with the LMT at all. But 7 some of the unedited videotape is of -- you know, it's 8 picket footage. I'm not sure what else it is, but it 9 has to do with Scientology in some way. 10 And the history of the discovery on this, to 11 my understanding is that at first Judge Moody -- and I 12 may be wrong about this, but this is my recollection. 13 At first Judge Moody had limited what should be turned 14 over just to statements by witnesses on the list. And 15 then somehow or another it got expanded to being 16 anything at all about Scientology, or at least that 17 was my understanding. And so -- 18 THE COURT: Not said by a witness in this 19 case -- 20 THE WITNESS: Right. 21 THE COURT: -- but just any old body -- 22 THE WITNESS: Said by anybody. 23 THE COURT: Well, that would have been too 24 broad, most likely, of an order, but -- 25 THE WITNESS: Well, but it was the order -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 884 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: -- as far as I know. So, you 3 know, unfortunately, I felt that it was too broad of 4 an order, and I took it upon myself not to comply. So 5 that was the wrong thing to do. So now we're trying 6 to get the videotape back. 7 And then what we'll have to do, I think, is 8 have Mark Bunker come down here and work with the 9 special master to go through each reel of unedited 10 videotape to identify which -- which ones are relevant 11 to this proceeding and which ones really are not. 12 MR. FUGATE: Does that mean if you get them 13 back from Mr. Merrett -- I hate to interrupt. 14 But you don't have them, right? 15 MR. McGOWAN: No. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett was quite a prize. 17 He was the one that used to appear by phone -- 18 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 19 THE COURT: -- and on what I would consider 20 to be some fairly important matters. And to me, it's 21 difficult to deal with a lawyer on important matters 22 over the telephone. 23 But if you're suggesting -- and I don't 24 know, somebody better contact Mr. Merrett, because if 25 Mr. Merrett, knowing that there was a court order that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 885 Volume 7, 1 said there was something to be produced -- and I 2 already heard Ms. Brooks say that Mr. Merrett said 3 leave them in the hallway, and didn't show up. 4 Mr. Merrett might find himself in some difficulty. 5 So Mr. Merrett most likely, would be my 6 guess, isn't going to have those videotapes. He's not 7 going to know what you're talking about. Maybe I'm 8 wrong. But I don't know. I just imagine that's why 9 you haven't heard from him. 10 MR. McGOWAN: I have actually heard -- 11 THE COURT: He, by the way -- he, by the 12 way, is, as I said -- just all I can say is quite a 13 character. I mean, and I'm not saying that -- he just 14 walks to a different drummer. 15 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, with -- in hopes 16 that he would comply, in hopes that your Honor was 17 wrong about that, it was my intention to give him 18 today to do that, or at least to turn them over, and 19 if I didn't hear from him today I would get either a 20 subpoena or court order and we'd bring it to the 21 Court's attention. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. McGOWAN: Hopefully, that won't be 24 necessary. If it is, it is. 25 THE COURT: Well, as you know, as I said, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 886 Volume 7, 1 I'll be happy to command Mr. Merrett to appear in 2 court with anything that he took that was ordered 3 turned over by the Court and he said put out in the 4 hallway and just whisked them away. But I'm betting 5 you, he won't show up with a box for us. 6 MR. McGOWAN: Well, your Honor, I'm still 7 struggling for phone numbers. But I would -- 8 MR. DANDAR: Judge, the plaintiff would love 9 for you to issue an order to have him appear in court 10 this week. 11 THE COURT: Well, you know, as I said, 12 Mr. Merrett has never -- luckily, Mr. Merrett 13 practices in Jacksonville, and I don't have to deal 14 with Mr. Merrett very often. 15 MR. DANDAR: But I have to deal with him. 16 THE COURT: I guess I was just traveling -- 17 this was another Court's problem. My guess is he 18 knows what's going on here and what is being suggested 19 about these tapes. I don't know, but I expect that if 20 he ever had them, they were deep-sixed somewhere and 21 he's never going to admit it. This is my guess. Now, 22 I could be wrong. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. 24 MR. DANDAR: Would you let him appear by 25 phone? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 887 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: I think he'll produce them. 2 He's out of town. 3 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 4 MR. DANDAR: Judge, would you let him appear 5 by phone? 6 THE COURT: No, I absolutely will not. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. I mean -- 8 THE COURT: I mean for what? How can he 9 bring something by the telephone? 10 MR. DANDAR: Well, he can tell you what it 11 is and where it is and why he hasn't produced it and 12 also testify in reference to the allegations 13 Ms. Brooks has made against him. 14 THE COURT: Well, he can -- what's wrong 15 with this man? Something like this, his -- his 16 practice of law has been challenged. You mean he's 17 just too damn arrogant to get in the car and come down 18 here and defend himself or -- 19 MR. DANDAR: That I can't answer. 20 THE COURT: Well, that's what I sure would 21 do if I were a lawyer and I had these kind of 22 accusations being made. I would either -- I would 23 either -- but I wouldn't say: Gee, Judge, if you 24 don't mind again, once again, let me just appear on 25 the telephone. That's good enough for you. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 888 Volume 7, 1 So, yes, I'll let him appear by phone, and 2 if his credibility is at issue, I guess I'll just have 3 to guess. 4 MR. DANDAR: (Gestured.) 5 MR. LIROT: Well, I guess -- 6 THE COURT: I don't think he served his 7 client very well, what he would be appearing on, what 8 I perceived his client must have thought were some 9 fairly important matters. Over a telephone, it's 10 difficult to -- you do the best you can. But, I mean, 11 what happens is lawyers are talking and the judge 12 wants to interrupt or the other side does, and the 13 next thing you know they're still prattling. They've 14 been prattling, and you don't know even know what they 15 said. It's just not a very good way to do business in 16 an important matter. 17 I suppose Mr. Minton was paying him well, 18 and Mr. Minton would probably have paid him to come 19 down and represent him. That didn't seem to be a very 20 good thing for him to do. If he was too far away, 21 then he probably needed to retain local counsel to 22 come in. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q With that as an introduction, Judge. On page 72, 25 the question posed to Ms. Brooks: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 889 Volume 7, 1 Question, it says: "I just want to make it very 2 clear then -- correct me if I'm wrong -- your testimony is 3 that there's not a single piece of paper in the LMT 4 building which is a statement by you or Minton or Prince 5 concerning Scientology, concerning any issue in this case, 6 or concerning Lisa McPherson. Correct?" 7 Your answer, Ms. Brooks, was: "That's correct. 8 The only place anything exists like that are in John 9 Merrett's files, which are his files." 10 Question: "So you gave some files to 11 Mr. Merrett?" 12 Answer: "Well, he -- he is in charge of all of 13 our legal files, and they have -- I believe they probably 14 have -- well, to be honest, I don't know if they do or not. 15 I asked Mr. Merrett if there was anything in his files 16 responsive, and he said no. Other than that, you know, 17 said, 'Anything in my files is a attorney work product or 18 attorney/client privilege.'" 19 Question: "So there might be some documents, but 20 you consider them to be privileged?" 21 Answer: Well, what he told me is that they were 22 legal documents and that wasn't something that I needed to 23 be concerned about in this document production." 24 And that's the conclusion of that, so I think in 25 your affidavit you put something to the effect of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 890 Volume 7, 1 Mr. Merrett being an extension of Mr. Dandar? 2 A Not by this point. By this point, we were 3 extremely alienated from Mr. Dandar, and the relationship 4 had changed. 5 THE COURT: Between you all or between 6 Mr. Merrett and Mr. Dandar? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Merrett representing 8 us; therefore, his relationship had changed as well. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q The next document I have is Sub Exhibit K, and 11 this is a videotaped deposition of Stacy Brooks from 12 September 7th, 2001. I have the cover page 1 -- 13 THE COURT: Maybe I'm all wet here. Did I 14 not -- did I not read in an affidavit where somebody 15 alleged that Mr. Merrett said, about something that 16 was compelled or supposed to be delivered at a 17 deposition, "Just leave it outside and I'll take care 18 of it"? 19 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Who said that, Ms. Brooks? 21 THE WITNESS: I think I said that, your 22 Honor. 23 MR. FUGATE: And that's in reference to the 24 videotapes. 25 THE COURT: That's in reference to the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 891 Volume 7, 1 videotapes. And then they disappeared, never to be 2 seen again. And this lawyer knew that they were 3 supposed to be produced. And this lawyer said, "Leave 4 them out in the hallway, and they'll be gone"? And 5 he's going to come in and tell me that and say, "Here 6 they are, and I whisked them away so she wouldn't 7 produce them"? Well, good for him. 8 MR. LIROT: Oh, did I publish -- I'm sorry, 9 this is L. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q All right. September 7th, 2001, will be Sub 12 Exhibit 15L, and Ms. Brooks' deposition from September 7th 13 of 2001, on page 1, I have page 78, and I have the 14 signature page. And this deals with destruction of records 15 from LMT. And I'll go ahead and hand you that, Ms. Brooks. 16 And I'll ask if you reviewed that in preparing your 17 affidavit. 18 THE COURT: What is that, Counselor? 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, this is the -- an excerpt 20 from Ms. Brooks' deposition of 9/7/01, September 7th, 21 2001. And they're asking her questions about the 22 destruction of some documents at the LMT. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q And I'll go ahead and ask you, for the Court's 25 edification, just to read what the questions and answers KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 892 Volume 7, 1 are on that page. 2 THE COURT: What does it say on the front, 3 did you say? 4 MR. LIROT: It's the cover page of her -- 5 it's a videotape -- it's a transcript of a videotaped 6 deposition from September 7th, 2001, of Stacy Brooks. 7 A Do you want me to read the highlighted part? 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Sure. Please. That's what I've been focusing 10 on. 11 A Question, by Mr. Moxon: "Just to clarify one 12 point you've mentioned here, since May of 2000, you 13 periodically destroyed all e-mails to and from Mr. Prince, 14 yourself, Mr. Minton, Mr. Jacobsen, Mr. Bunker, and 15 Ms. Summers that came into LMT computers?" 16 Answer: "Correct." 17 Question: "You also did that since July, 18 obviously, right?" 19 Answer: "As I said, we have a policy --" 20 Question: "Yes." 21 Answer: "-- that we do not retain records." 22 Question: "Okay. The answer is yes, you 23 destroyed everything from May to the present, and you did 24 it periodically?" 25 Answer: "Yes. Shall I read my declaration into KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 893 Volume 7, 1 the record about it?" 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Okay. Did you have such a policy? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And what was that policy? 6 A Well, our security person, whose name is Grady 7 Ward, instituted a policy with everybody, which he 8 communicated to them via several e-mails -- a whole 9 procedure that the people were supposed to follow to 10 maintain the security of their records. 11 Q And what did that have to do with destroying 12 records? 13 A Well -- 14 THE COURT: Well, deleting them. Are you 15 talking about e-mails now? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I am. 17 (The Court's judicial assistant, Mrs. Rudd, 18 entered the courtroom and spoke to the Court 19 off the record.) 20 THE COURT: Excuse me. 21 Give me just a second here. 22 For the information of the people -- I'm not 23 going to tell you who this is from, but this is 24 something from the person who apparently sent the 25 materials to me in the mail, who is most distressed KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 894 Volume 7, 1 that I was going to give those up. But I must admit, 2 I'm wondering whose -- I mean -- 3 THE WITNESS: How does he know? 4 THE COURT: I don't know. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe you could do something 6 of a side bar, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Well, I really can't, because 8 this is somebody is that very frightened of my giving 9 this information to counsel and indicating that she's 10 got children and she's a sitting duck and on and on. 11 And I don't know what to do with it, to tell 12 you the truth. I just am not used to getting 13 something delivered to me in the middle of a hearing. 14 Obviously, my secretary must have thought it was 15 rather important, so I'm going to take just about five 16 minutes and reflect on it, and then I'll let you all 17 know what I'm going to do with it. 18 Anybody that's here, don't send me stuff 19 unless you want me to put it in the court file. 20 That's what I do with stuff. I don't do ex parte 21 stuff. If somebody sends me stuff, it goes in the 22 court file. 23 (A break was taken at 3:05 p.m. until 24 3:22 p.m.) 25 THE COURT: Okay. I think what -- I'll put KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 895 Volume 7, 1 this in an envelope, which I'll put it back in. The 2 fear of this person, apparently, was that this 3 certified -- I mean, it always amazes me, somebody 4 sends me certified mail -- which means, in other 5 words, they know that I've got it and now -- I don't 6 know what they thought I was going to do with it. 7 Somebody is going to come along years down the road 8 and say, "What did you do with that? I don't know 9 what you're talking about." 10 They paid $9 to have this delivered to me. 11 As I say, it is a -- it's talking about some gloating 12 Internet posts made on April 7th, transferred from 13 www.altreligion-.scientology.org to www.xenu.net. 14 It says: "While there's no way to know for 15 certain who made them," I could only have -- "it could 16 only have been by someone very close to the McPherson 17 case, with intimate knowledge of the behind-the-scenes 18 goings-on because they were posted prior to all this 19 being made public. Also enclosed are direct quotes 20 from L. Ron Hubbard. They speak for themselves. It 21 might be considered that the dictates are being 22 followed precisely." 23 And then it goes on: "He with the deepest 24 pocket" -- I don't know if I read this as carefully as 25 I'm reading it now -- "He with the deepest pockets and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 896 Volume 7, 1 most skilled lawyers and heavy-handed tactics 2 shouldn't necessarily win or lose. Justice will have 3 been served and the judicial system allowed to work as 4 it was designed and both sides are allowed to present 5 their case to twelve jurors" -- somebody doesn't know 6 the Florida system, obviously, very well -- "let the 7 chips fall where they may. Then only then will we 8 have all won." 9 And there's a quote here: "The truth is too 10 simple. It must always be arrived at through 11 complication. Blessings to you and your work and 12 life," unsigned. 13 And then there are some postings here, 14 page 1 of 40. Must have been a big night or 15 something. I don't know if that means there's 40 16 pages or what, but I've got 1 of 40 and 2 of 40. 17 And at the top it says: "Bob and Stacy in 18 court, true or," dot, dot, dot, dot. "Operation 19 Clambake forum, opinion and debate." 20 What is that? I don't even know what this 21 is. Is this what these postings are -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: -- that everybody keeps talking 24 about? I keep telling you all, maybe one of these 25 days you all ought to invite me to go to a couple of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 897 Volume 7, 1 these so I can look at them, because I don't go to 2 these places that have postings. 3 THE WITNESS: You don't want to. 4 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 5 Anyway, it appears there's inquiry being 6 made here as to whether or not Bob and Stacy have -- I 7 guess that being Mr. Minton and the lady right here 8 before us as we're talking about -- are going to go 9 in, and what is -- what is apparently of importance 10 that I read, the only thing that's seemingly 11 underlined -- and I believe this was the way I 12 received it: "Tomorrow morning Bob Minton will walk 13 into Wally Pope's office and suborn perjury by telling 14 all the lies Scientology asks him to" -- I don't know 15 what these little daggers, little caret marks -- "with 16 the anticipated result of bringing down the," caret 17 marks, "case." 18 So I guess that is what this was referring 19 to, that this must be somebody close to this. And 20 then there's a bunch of stuff -- I couldn't even tell 21 which side wrote this because -- 22 THE WITNESS: It's hard to tell. 23 THE COURT: It's hard to tell, because on 24 the other thing -- I mean, I suppose that somebody 25 telling the group that's listening that Bob and Stacy KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 898 Volume 7, 1 are going to try to ruin this case, but then I've got 2 some stuff that sounds like it come from a -- maybe, I 3 don't know -- the Church is going to acknowledge that 4 these were supporters. But -- 5 THE WITNESS: What's it say? 6 THE COURT: Well, it says: "Minton must be 7 in some deep shit. He's supposed to take the deal the 8 Church offered him. What a sucker. We always knew he 9 would roll over. How do you like your boy now? Why 10 don't you ask him" what he and Stacy -- "why he and 11 Stacy Brooks were meeting with Church officials until 12 wee hours of Sunday morning? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha." 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. This was someone who 14 obviously was following us. 15 THE COURT: "Keep idolizing Minton, but how 16 will you rationalize --" 17 I mean, I don't know. But anyway, the deal 18 is, was when I said I was going to give this to you 19 all -- oh, the last page, I'm sorry, is Ron Hubbard in 20 his own words. And there's -- I wouldn't know what it 21 was, to tell you the truth, and I don't believe I read 22 it. There is something here underlined. I wouldn't 23 even know what it meant. "Branch 5 Project, Project 24 Swirl." Anyway. And then of course there's this 25 letter. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 899 Volume 7, 1 Now, of course, now I've got this, which 2 seems to say, "What in the hell are you thinking?" 3 And then it says: I'm the one that sent you the 4 Internet postings. I did it because" -- and the quote 5 from Ron Hubbard. "I did it because I thought it was 6 very revealing. If I were in your position, I would 7 have wanted that information." 8 Well, don't do me any favors, folks. I've 9 got all the information I could deal with. 10 And then it says: "Approximately ten days 11 ago, I had a recording of a blood-curdling, 12 terror-filled message left on my voice mail. I 13 received an e-mail with a message" -- I don't have any 14 idea what this means -- "PM exiting, and my computer 15 was" -- a word, I don't even know what it is -- "with 16 advertisements for life insurance. Unknown charges 17 have appeared on my credit card." 18 And then this next might be revealing to 19 this person if she identifies -- something personal 20 about her. She's a sitting duck. "And now you're 21 going to hand them my name" -- I wonder who "they" 22 are -- "my name and address. I'm the source of giving 23 you that info." 24 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I think 25 "them" -- she thinks Scientology is going to do KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 900 Volume 7, 1 something to hurt her. 2 THE COURT: "If ever there was a case of 3 directly feeding someone to the lions, that would be 4 it. You're the judge. Use good judgment." 5 And then I suppose this was this woman's 6 name. So I've got a name, apparently. I've got a 7 name on here, and I've got this $9.09 envelope that's 8 got an address. And then I've got somebody suggesting 9 that I'm going to be feeding this person to a lion's 10 den if I -- but in essence, that's what it is. 11 I've asked my secretary to take one of these 12 copies and go talk to somebody to see if what I've got 13 from this person, anybody would know -- I mean, I 14 don't want to -- if somebody doesn't understand it, 15 let it be clear. I mean, when you give a judge 16 something, the judge generally throws it in the 17 wastebasket, files it in the court file, or gives it 18 to the lawyer, depending on the case and what the 19 import of it is or what have you. 20 I brought this up only because I figured I 21 might start getting more of these, and I thought I 22 might want you all to tell me what you wanted me to 23 do, whether you wanted a copy, whether you wanted it 24 thrown in the court file, thrown in the wastebasket. 25 Any of this would have been okay with me. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 901 Volume 7, 1 But now that somebody suggests that if I 2 reveal this that somebody is going to be in harm's 3 way -- which I don't believe -- I'm not sure what it 4 is I should do. So I'm going to think about it 5 overnight, and maybe you all would think about it 6 overnight and give me some suggestions. 7 MR. FUGATE: Judge, obviously, if she's 8 looking to -- if I heard correctly what you read in 9 the handwritten note, that somebody was in the 10 courtroom and then left when they thought you were 11 going to reveal it. There's only one person that has 12 come and gone, and that was a blond woman, who I have 13 no idea who she was, sitting in the second row there. 14 And the only person that we saw her have contact with 15 was Mr. Jesse Prince, who was standing in the hallway. 16 So I can't tell you anything other than 17 that -- the old Florida circumstantial evidence 18 instruction -- I don't know what that means. But 19 that's what happened. I mean, obviously whoever gave 20 that to you was sitting in the courtroom and realized 21 you were going to give it up, wrote the letter and 22 took it to your J.A. 23 THE COURT: Well, it -- nonetheless, it's 24 somebody suggesting that if I give this up, they 25 can't -- as I said, it's "What in the hell are you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 902 Volume 7, 1 thinking of?" Well, I thought I was thinking like a 2 judge. 3 But I just -- I'm just going to tell you I'm 4 going to think about this overnight. I don't -- I 5 don't know that anybody really needs to know who that 6 was. Does anybody need to know who this person was? 7 MR. LIROT: We don't need to know anything, 8 Judge. 9 THE COURT: I mean, would that -- 10 MR. MOXON: Judge, we don't care who it was. 11 Our only concern is that there was an attempt to, you 12 know, influence the Court by somebody who has been 13 talking -- the woman that was talking to Mr. Lirot at 14 the last hearing and was talking to Mr. Prince in the 15 hallway. 16 THE COURT: Well, trust me. 17 MR. MOXON: I know that you wouldn't -- 18 THE COURT: And you know that -- 19 MR. MOXON: Of course not. 20 THE COURT: -- I get this stuff all the 21 time. When I used to be at criminal, I mean, I got 22 letters all the time: This guy needs to be put away, 23 up -- you know, hung from a tree. And this guy is a 24 wonderful fellow. 25 And I just didn't pay much attention to that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 903 Volume 7, 1 stuff. I just usually filed it in the court file. 2 But on death penalty cases, as I said, I would have to 3 try not to read them and put them in a box and try, if 4 I did hand them out -- and there's all kinds of 5 problems. 6 This is not a death penalty case. So, as I 7 said, I just was trying to get a feel for how we might 8 want to deal with it. But I don't want somebody to -- 9 they think they sent me something and now all of a 10 sudden I'm -- 11 MR. MOXON: Judge, we don't care. We don't 12 care. 13 THE COURT: You don't care, nobody cares. 14 Then the best thing to do is just to tell my secretary 15 to shred this. I'll file the original in the court 16 file without the envelope, throw this thing away, that 17 hand letter away. And assuming that there's nothing 18 in here that's identifying, I'll give you copies of 19 it. But as I said, I read it more fully in court 20 today than I ever read it. 21 MR. FUGATE: Well, the only concern I have 22 Judge, and my first impulse I stated to the Court when 23 you read the first one was just throw them away. But 24 if it's someone who is providing the Court something 25 and attempting -- and I know that it won't -- to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 904 Volume 7, 1 influence your Honor and that someone is having 2 contact with Jesse Prince, I do have a problem with 3 that. But I don't know that there's anything we're 4 going to be able to do with it based on what you've 5 got right there. And that's my concern. 6 I mean, I think that we're all here to try 7 to get this hearing over with, and the less of this, 8 the more likely we are to get it over with. But I 9 don't want to have somebody think they can come in to 10 give things to the Court to influence the Court. And 11 I think both sides ought to be instructed fairly to 12 make sure that anybody on either side keeps that from 13 happening. 14 THE COURT: But, you know, it's real hard. 15 I mean, I understand why neither side -- I mean, I've 16 been involved in this court system for 20 years. 17 People send stuff to the judge. And naturally they're 18 trying to influence them. That's why they send it. I 19 mean, that's exactly why they've sent it. They've got 20 a position, and they want you to know it. 21 Judges just aren't influenced by stuff like 22 this. If we were, we couldn't ever sit on a case. We 23 get it all the time. If somebody knew that if we got 24 something we couldn't sit on a case, I guarantee you 25 the other side that didn't want us would be sending us KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 905 Volume 7, 1 stuff to get us off the case. So it isn't that big a 2 deal. But, yes, would both sides please instruct 3 their -- 4 MR. FUGATE: Gallery? 5 THE COURT: -- their folks that are -- their 6 supporters, for lack of a better word, that please 7 don't send me stuff. I mean, all I have to do is -- I 8 will file it in the court file, I will hand it out to 9 the lawyers, or I will throw it in the wastebasket, 10 depending on what the lawyers tell me they want me to 11 do in this case. And if they don't want that to 12 happen, then they really ought not to send it. 13 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, just for the record, in 16 light of what Mr. Moxon said, I was never asked about 17 anything. I've never told anybody to send anything to 18 the Court. And if anybody did ask me, I would tell 19 them absolutely under no uncertain circumstances -- 20 THE COURT: I have no doubt that that is 21 true, and I have no doubt that that is true for all 22 the lawyers that appear in front of me on this case. 23 But I'm just telling you that sometimes people -- 24 obviously, somebody in court didn't know that. 25 And so do I think they were trying to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 906 Volume 7, 1 influence me? Maybe. I don't know what this means, 2 to tell you the truth. "Five years ago, Bob Minton 3 set out to destroy Scientology by funding the Lisa 4 McPherson case. Today he's made a pact with 5 Scientology to destroy the Lisa McPherson case to save 6 his own skin." 7 I mean, that kind of stuff isn't influential 8 to a judge. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, this is 10 raging on the Internet. 11 THE COURT: Is it? 12 THE WITNESS: This whole attitude, this 13 fervent belief that Mr. Minton and I are both under 14 some sort of threat of death by Scientology and that 15 that's why we're doing this. 16 And there are a lot of people who think they 17 are really doing us a big favor by posting things like 18 that on the Internet and, you know, saying that we're 19 lying and this whole thing. I mean, the feelings are 20 very, very high. You know, people are just raging 21 about this whole issue. 22 And what you're reading there is just one 23 example of literally hundreds of postings about 24 Mr. Minton and myself and our testimony and -- 25 THE COURT: Yes, there's some stuff in KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 907 Volume 7, 1 these -- I'll give these to you that are fairly long. 2 There's vulgar stuff here. 3 THE WITNESS: Very vulgar. 4 THE COURT: Very vulgar stuff. As I said, 5 if anybody thinks that's influential, it really isn't. 6 But that -- I mean, I know you all wouldn't 7 occasion this stuff to be sent to the Court. People 8 that think I need to know things, I really don't. I 9 need to know what comes from a lawyer. 10 So the best you can, pass that onto anybody 11 that might -- and the rest of it I'll just deal with 12 at the time. 13 Okay. 14 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry that we had to have 16 that interruption, but . . . 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Ms. Brooks, I believe we left off at Exhibit 15L, 19 and I'm going to hand you what I've marked as Exhibit 15M. 20 This is the declaration of Stacy Brooks regarding records 21 retention and destruction. And it looks to be an exhibit 22 from -- it says Witness 1SB9-7-01LC, and it looks like 23 you've signed this under penalty of perjury. And that 24 looks to me to be a declaration that you prepared and 25 signed, or at least signed, about the policies of the Lisa KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 908 Volume 7, 1 McPherson Trust and document destruction. 2 What does that -- what does that paragraph say? 3 If you can, read the highlighted paragraph to the Court. 4 A "From its -- from its inception, the records 5 retention policy of the Lisa McPherson Trust has been to 6 minimize the number of records retained. Under that --" 7 THE COURT: Go slow. Remember my court 8 reporter here is doing realtime. 9 THE WITNESS: Sorry, sorry. 10 Did you get what I just said? 11 THE REPORTER: Yes. 12 A Okay. "Under that policy, all records, 13 correspondence -- correspondence, e-mails and Internet 14 postings are deleted or destroyed as soon as is practical 15 after their use has terminated, with the exception of 16 minimal archival records which are stored in digital form. 17 It is not possible to identify the records which have been 18 purged pursuant to the aforesaid policy. All records have 19 been dealt with according to that policy." 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q All right. Was that true? 22 A Yes. There -- that policy did exist. And, 23 unfortunately, everybody didn't adhere to the policy. 24 There were things that were still in the office. And the 25 special master has now gone through the whole office and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 909 Volume 7, 1 found -- I don't know what he's found, whatever he's found. 2 And also, he has the hard drives so he can -- you know, I'm 3 not really sure what there is to find, but I wouldn't be 4 surprised if there were documents and things on the 5 computers that he found that would be -- that would have 6 been responsive to whatever subpoena that was in response 7 to. 8 Q Okay. Now, the next paragraph is not 9 highlighted. And this one says: "No archival records 10 include statements of any person having knowledge of the 11 facts of the complaint or counterclaim in the case of 12 McPherson vs. Scientology. No archival records contain any 13 statement or information concerning the subject matters of 14 the aforesaid action. No archival records contain any 15 reference to any person designated as a witness in that 16 case or to any person who has knowledge of the facts of the 17 case, except a digital copy of Teresa Summers' privilege 18 records concerning" -- Marcus Quirino? Is that how you 19 pronounce his name? 20 A I would imagine. 21 Q Okay. "Are stored there, as are digital 22 duplicates of the statements of the Woodcraft family which 23 appear on the Lisa McPherson Trust Web site. Only Teresa 24 Summers has access to the records concerning Marcus 25 Quirino." KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 910 Volume 7, 1 That wasn't highlighted at all. So all that I 2 would assume would be true in your declaration. Isn't that 3 correct? 4 A I think you have the wrong idea here. The things 5 that are highlighted aren't highlighted because they're 6 false. And I think we've gone through quite a number of 7 these highlighted excerpts -- 8 Q Okay. 9 A -- that I have testified clearly were true. 10 Q Okay. 11 A So I think you're misstating my testimony or 12 misstating something -- 13 Q Well -- 14 A -- to say that everything that's highlighted is a 15 lie. 16 Q That wasn't my statement. 17 A Well, that is I think what you said. 18 Q No. You testified that some of the things were 19 highlighted that were true. And I think at one of the 20 meetings certain things came up, and you had said, well, 21 not all of that was false. I think in testifying about 22 Mr. Rinder's discussions with you, he apparently brought 23 some things up. And you said, "Well, not everything you've 24 brought to my attention did I testify to falsely." 25 So I took it to be your description of these KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 911 Volume 7, 1 documents that these highlighted sections were sections 2 that were brought to your attention so that you could set 3 the record straight. And you don't know who highlighted 4 them, so I'm trying to find exactly what it is -- 5 A That's incorrect. 6 Q What's incorrect? 7 A If that's your understanding of what I've been 8 saying, your understanding is incorrect. 9 Q Correct me. What is it exactly that was 10 highlighted in these documents? 11 A Someone's idea about things that I might need to 12 correct. It didn't -- it certainly didn't mean that I 13 might not need to correct something else. 14 Q Okay. 15 A And I certainly didn't rely on only these 16 excerpts to determine what I needed to do. 17 Q Okay. 18 A I think it's important for you to understand that 19 when we finally went -- 20 And, your Honor, this is what -- this is what 21 these people that are making these postings on the Internet 22 cannot even wildly imagine could be true, what I'm about to 23 say. 24 By the time we went and spoke to Mr. Rinder on 25 Saturday, April 6th, we felt that Mr. Dandar had put us in KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 912 Volume 7, 1 a very, very, very dangerous position. And we -- we felt 2 that we could no longer trust him at all. And we were 3 confronted with a landscape of players that was so surreal, 4 because on one side, we had people that we had been working 5 with that we now no longer trusted at all. And on the 6 other hand -- and on the other side, we had Scientology, 7 that we had spent years demonizing and not trusting at all. 8 And -- and suddenly we were in a position 9 where -- and Mr. Minton will probably testify about this, 10 but I will say for myself that I had the impression from 11 Mr. Minton that he found himself in a position where the 12 world had turned upside-down, and the person that he could 13 think of that he might possibly be able to trust in the 14 world was Mike Rinder. 15 And so when we went and spoke to him and when we 16 were working with him, this was not a matter of Mike Rinder 17 directing us in any way. I need for you to understand 18 that. You won't believe me. All these people that are 19 posting these things don't believe this. But all of these 20 people that are posting these things don't believe what 21 Mr. Dandar has been doing either. And if they believed 22 what Mr. Dandar has been doing, then they would