======== To: tilman@berlin.snafu.de Subject: From: dev-null@no-id.com Date: 19 May 2002 04:30:36 -0000 -------- IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 13, 2002. Afternoon Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________ KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320 839 Volume 7, 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT 6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B 7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108 Attorney for Plaintiff 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 9 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 10 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 11 12 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 18 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 19 20 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue 21 St. Petersburg, Florida. 22 Counsel for Robert Minton 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 840 Volume 7, 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Mr. Rick Spector Mr. Allan Cartwright 8 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller 9 Mr. Ben Shaw Ms. Joyce Earl 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 841 Volume 7, 1 (The afternoon session began at 2:05 p.m.) 2 THE COURT: I have a couple of things. 3 These documents are here pursuant -- 4 Mr. Moxon, this is the one that you talked 5 about on Friday. 6 This came to me Friday, and I just said, 7 "Well, I'll just give everybody a copy on Monday." I 8 don't remember. Apparently, it's something I must 9 have signed an order for because it's here, request 10 under the Hague Convention of the taking of evidence 11 abroad in civil or personal matters. 12 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor. I'll see if we 13 can find the order -- 14 THE COURT: Okay. Anyway, it says: 15 "Referring to your request dated" -- I'm going to 16 guess it's 11/16/01 -- "the Royal Marine Administer of 17 Justice and the Police have the honor to inform 18 you" -- I like this; these folks do nice work -- "the 19 honor to inform you that your request has been 20 complied with. Please find enclosed documents." 21 Then it's signed by some folks, and this is 22 all in some language other than English. I don't know 23 what it is. But is there any reason why I just can't 24 hand everybody a copy? 25 MR. DANDAR: Well, because of the Second KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 842 Volume 7, 1 DCA's opinion, I believe this has to do with financing 2 or money or things like that. 3 THE COURT: I have no idea. 4 MR. MOXON: This has nothing to do with 5 Mr. -- 6 THE COURT: Is this funds? 7 MR. MOXON: -- funds from Mr. Minton to 8 Mr. Dandar. This is the -- this is the money that was 9 testified to that went from Helda Lund, this Operation 10 Clambake, to LMT. 11 MR. DANDAR: That's right, that's right. 12 THE COURT: The $300,000? 13 MR. MOXON: That's right. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we need to see where that 16 came from. 17 THE COURT: There is one document -- there's 18 a whole bunch of stuff. It's all, as I said, in some 19 language -- I guess this would be Norwegian. 20 MR. MOXON: Yes, I think so. 21 THE COURT: But there's one thing that looks 22 like -- it's got numbers on it, and it looks like 23 there's something called 299815, and then there's some 24 other little numbers. So maybe that's it. 25 MR. MOXON: Okay. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 843 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: But I don't know what to do with 2 it. I mean, was this supposed to be in the court 3 file -- 4 MR. MOXON: No. 5 THE COURT: -- or supposed to go to counsel 6 or what? 7 MR. MOXON: We made -- I've got the order 8 here. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. DANDAR: But I think you ought to 11 address it with Mr. Howie, Mr. Minton's counsel. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. DANDAR: Oh, there he is. Okay. 14 MR. MOXON: Normally, you, of course, would 15 go to another state, and the state would just go 16 through the discovery procedures in that state. And 17 that's what happened in Norway. 18 But we're informed by Norwegian counsel that 19 because the request was an order, essentially a 20 request from the Court, like a normal out-of-state 21 commission would be, they wanted to send the documents 22 back to the Court, to the requester. And so our 23 counsel provided the Norwegian court the documents. 24 They got them from Helda Lund, gave them back to the 25 Court, and we were informed the Court was going to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 844 Volume 7, 1 send them to you. 2 THE COURT: Okay. The only thing I would 3 ask -- this was in January -- apparently this is Judge 4 Beach's initials that says, I guess, a stay of 60 days 5 for execution or extension of this order is granted. 6 MR. MOXON: Yes, in case they wanted to file 7 a writ, but they didn't. 8 THE COURT: Did you file any writ? 9 MR. DANDAR: I had nothing to do with it. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, do you know -- this 11 says UC counsel of record. I just got a whole bunch 12 of documents here that come -- that I can't read, and 13 I was just prepared to hand them out. 14 This copy is no good -- not that I can't 15 read them, but this copy isn't even -- it looks like 16 when Ms. Rudd made a copy that perhaps that one came 17 out bad. Maybe they're all that way. See what the 18 original looks like. 19 Do you want to look at this? 20 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 21 MR. MOXON: In fact, your Honor, here's the 22 other order. We had a hearing in front of Judge Beach 23 on this. 24 THE COURT: There's two documents in here. 25 MR. MOXON: The language of the order was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 845 Volume 7, 1 approved by both Mr. Dandar and -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. MOXON: -- whoever was representing LMT 4 at that time. 5 THE COURT: Oh, I see the problem with this 6 little -- this original is very light, and when 7 Mrs. Rudd copied it, it didn't turn out very well. 8 But you all can see even on the original, that's very 9 light. 10 MR. MOXON: Yes. But it's readable, I mean, 11 if you could read it. 12 THE COURT: That's the original. I don't 13 know that you can read this -- see? I guess that's 14 the best. 15 MR. MOXON: No, I can't read that. Maybe we 16 can make a new copy of this. 17 THE COURT: Well, you study that if you 18 will, Mr. Howie. 19 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Good luck. 21 MR. HOWIE: Well, I have -- 22 MR. FUGATE: "Howie" is Norwegian, isn't it? 23 THE COURT: I'll just keep them here until 24 he's had a chance to look at them, but it does look as 25 though there's been a court order. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 846 Volume 7, 1 MR. MOXON: I said that was your order, but 2 I see it's Judge Beach's order. 3 THE COURT: I like this. It says: "Circuit 4 Court of the Sixth Judicial Circuit presents its 5 compliments to the appropriate judicial probate of 6 Norway." No wonder they wrote back and said they had 7 the honor to inform me. 8 MR. MOXON: We copied those from the Hague 9 Convention. 10 THE COURT: Kind of nice. It's very -- 11 MR. DANDAR: All orders should start out 12 that way. 13 THE COURT: You can have a seat, Mr. Howie. 14 MR. HOWIE: Thank you very much, ma'am. 15 THE COURT: You may take your time. 16 MR. DANDAR: For the record, the plaintiff 17 does request a copy of that document. 18 THE COURT: Okay. And defendant obviously 19 wants a copy of it. And I'm not sure why Mr. Howie's 20 reading it. I just had a copy for everybody, but -- 21 MR. DANDAR: Oh. 22 (Ms. Brooks entered the courtroom.) 23 THE COURT: I'm looking at the documents 24 requested. I can understand why funds transferred 25 from Operation Clambake to the LMT would be KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 847 Volume 7, 1 appropriate to this case, but it says then "or Robert 2 Minton." What would that have to do with this case? 3 MR. MOXON: Well, it has a lot to do with 4 the case. 5 THE COURT: Okay. What? 6 MR. MOXON: I can't read the documents in 7 Norwegian. I don't know. 8 THE COURT: No, I'm saying why would Judge 9 Beach sign an order allowing this Norwegian place to 10 send money that this man, whoever he is, sent to 11 Mr. Minton? I mean, I understand it went to LMT. 12 MR. MOXON: It's a question as to where 13 these funds are actually from, whether they're from 14 Mr. Minton, rather, or to LMT or to Mr. Minton. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Well, as I said, 16 Mr. Howie, you tell me if you have a problem with 17 this. I've got copies for everybody that I've made. 18 I've got the original. 19 MR. MOXON: I'd like to get the original if 20 I could, your Honor. I could make better copies. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. MOXON: Then I could make sure everybody 23 gets -- 24 THE COURT: Okay. Yes, you saw what I was 25 saying -- it was a very light copy, and it didn't come KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 848 Volume 7, 1 out very well. 2 MR. MOXON: Okay. 3 THE COURT: So I have those here, if someone 4 will remind me I have them. Mr. Howie can read it. 5 Ms. Brooks -- 6 Is it "Brooks" or "Brook"? 7 MS. BROOKS: Brooks. 8 THE COURT: -- Brooks is back with us, so 9 let's go on ahead. 10 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF STACY BROOKS (RESUMED) 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Ms. Brooks, during the break, Mr. Fugate was nice 14 enough to break out the documents we've got into two 15 separate sections, I guess the documents that were provided 16 to Minton and the documents that were provided to you. And 17 what I'll do is I've got about -- it looks like to me like 18 almost three-quarters of an inch. Does this look to be 19 generally the size of the document packet that was provided 20 to you on the 15th? 21 A Well, if there were some that were folded over, 22 it might be. 23 Q Fair enough. All right. I'm going to go ahead 24 and just hand you -- since I just have the one copy, I'm 25 just going to clip them as we go through them. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 849 Volume 7, 1 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I could ask for 2 continuing permission to approach the witness? 3 THE COURT: You may, as long as you've got 4 something in your hand. I always tell the lawyers, if 5 you don't have something in your hand, the lawyers -- 6 the witness wonders why you're coming. 7 MR. LIROT: Okay. 8 THE COURT: Having been a witness a few 9 times myself, it's disconcerting if you don't have a 10 document. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Ms. Brooks, I've got the first segment of the 13 packet given to me by Mr. Fugate. It appears to be an 14 excerpt of your deposition of April 15th, 2001. Does that 15 look to be one of the documents that you were provided on 16 April 15th by Mr. Fugate? 17 A Possibly. It refers to the secret agreement, so 18 I would say so. 19 Q All right. Well, what does it -- I mean, there 20 is a portion highlighted there, is there not? 21 A Yes. 22 Q All right. What does that question highlighted 23 actually ask? 24 A It refers to the secret agreement, if I knew 25 about it. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 850 Volume 7, 1 Q Well, why don't you read me the question. 2 A "Do you have any knowledge" -- well, you want me 3 to edit out all the stumbling? "Do you have any knowledge 4 or do you know what the agreement is between Mr. Dandar and 5 Ms. Liebreich?" 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, and who? Mr. Dandar? 7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Okay. That doesn't have anything to do with any 10 secret agreement, does it, between LMT and Mr. Minton or 11 the Trust or anything. That's Mr. Dandar and 12 Ms. Liebreich, correct? 13 A Yes, and I didn't include this in my -- 14 Q Okay. 15 A -- affidavit. 16 MR. LIROT: The second one, Judge, actually 17 we took time to make a copy of this one. I'll give a 18 copy to counsel. 19 And, Judge, I'll hand this to the witness. 20 This is a September 7th, 2001, letter, from apparently 21 Teresa Summers to Ms. Brooks, which looked to be the 22 second component of the packet that Mr. Fugate 23 represents was handed over to Ms. Brooks on 24 April 15th. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 851 Volume 7, 1 Q Ms. Brooks, what is this letter from Ms. Summers 2 to you on September 7th, 2001? 3 A It's a letter that I found on my desk on the 4 morning of September 10th, which was a Monday morning, 5 which was also accompanied by another letter in which 6 Ms. Summers quit. And this letter is a very lengthy letter 7 in which she accuses me and Mr. Minton of a number of 8 various criminal acts, things like that. 9 Q Okay. There are a couple paragraphs -- this 10 looks to have been an exhibit to somebody's deposition, 11 although it was cut off. It says, on the bottom of the 12 first page, Defendants' Exhibit Summers. Do you know that 13 this was ever made an exhibit of a deposition or anything? 14 A Well -- 15 THE COURT: Maybe somebody here could help 16 us out. It looks like it. 17 MR. MOXON: It was. Ms. Summers produced it 18 in her deposition. 19 THE COURT: And so this was made an exhibit 20 to her deposition? 21 MR. MOXON: That's correct. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. LIROT: And I assume that deposition was 24 taken in this case? 25 MR. MOXON: That's right. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 852 Volume 7, 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Okay. So this is a long letter. And there seem 3 to be two paragraphs. On page 2, the only thing circled 4 there is paragraph No. 2. Did you circle that? 5 A No. It was circled when I got it. 6 Q Okay. And -- 7 THE COURT: When was Ms. Summers' 8 deposition? 9 MR. MOXON: When? 10 THE COURT: M'hum (affirmative). 11 MR. MOXON: I don't know. I can ask Sarah, 12 your Honor. It was about five months ago. 13 THE COURT: Her deposition? 14 MR. MOXON: About five months ago. 15 THE COURT: Oh, five months ago. I thought 16 you said about five minutes ago. 17 MR. MOXON: No. 18 THE COURT: Five months ago, okay. 19 MR. FUGATE: We were busy over lunch. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. MOXON: It's a little more, 22 September 5th. 23 THE COURT: September 5th? 24 MR. MOXON: Yes. 25 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think, quite simply -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 853 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: No, it couldn't have been 2 September 5th. 3 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll tell you what, Judge. 4 The documents -- 5 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, October 16th. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 MR. LIROT: All right. The documents that 8 we were provided actually have excerpts. At least one 9 deposition of Ms. Summers was taken on September 5th 10 of 2001, and there looks to be another deposition 11 taken of Ms. Summers on October 16th of 2001. 12 THE COURT: And then there was a third one? 13 MR. LIROT: And if there was a third one, 14 there is no except in what we were provided. 15 MR. MOXON: That's the third one, your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: Pardon me. 18 MR. MOXON: The October deposition was the 19 third. There are three very short versions of her 20 deposition. October was the last one. 21 THE COURT: I was just given 9/5 and 22 then 10/16, so -- 23 MR. MOXON: There's one about -- oh, a year 24 earlier. 25 MR. DANDAR: June 13th, 2001, I took her KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 854 Volume 7, 1 deposition, the first one. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Ms. Brooks, you told me that the only two -- I 5 guess paragraph 2 and paragraph 7 on this letter were 6 circled. And apparently the letter was provided to you 7 with those circled? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Was it accompanied by any instruction that those 10 are the only issues that were in this letter that needed to 11 be addressed by you? 12 A No, it wasn't -- as I said earlier, the things 13 that were highlighted or circled or whatever, was somebody 14 else's idea of what I might possibly have to include in a 15 recantation. 16 Q Okay. Did you go through this entire document 17 relative to what you were considering to put in an 18 affidavit to recant earlier testimony? 19 A Yes, I did. 20 Q All right. And I guess I'll look at paragraph 21 No. 2, since that one says -- and I'm quoting a letter 22 here. It says your stated purpose of dissolving the LMT as 23 a corporation: 24 So that you and Bob would not have to 25 testify as to financial matters also places me KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 855 Volume 7, 1 and all of the other staff members at risk. The 2 argument that you just don't want Scientology to 3 know about the finances takes on new meaning in 4 light of Item No. 1. It also brings up the 5 question of the validity of the LMT, if it can be 6 dissolved at once in order to protect you and 7 Bob -- once again, with little care for 8 employees. 9 What importance, if any, did you place on that 10 sentence? 11 A None. 12 Q Okay. And why was the LMT dissolved? 13 A I believe I testified about this earlier. The 14 LMT was dissolved around the same time that I ordered 15 Jesse -- Mr. Minton and I ordered Jesse to withdraw as an 16 expert, that I withdrew as a witness, that Mr. Minton 17 informed Mr. Dandar that he wasn't going to fund the case 18 any longer, and basically we disbanded the LMT in a further 19 effort to try to distance ourselves from this wrongful 20 death case. 21 Q Well, I think your earlier testimony was that the 22 LMT did a lot more than participate in any activity with 23 the wrongful death case. Isn't that true? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And Ms. Summers did a lot more than participate KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 856 Volume 7, 1 in the wrongful death case. Isn't that true? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q All right. What about paragraph No. 7? 4 THE COURT: Are we introducing this or is -- 5 MR. LIROT: Yes, I would like to -- 6 THE COURT: -- this an exhibit or what? 7 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll go ahead and mark 8 it. 9 And I believe we're up to No. 16? 10 THE CLERK: 15. 11 MR. LIROT: 15. 12 THE COURT: So you're referring to -- these 13 references have been to Defendants' -- Plaintiff's 15? 14 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge. 15 THE COURT: Do you have any objection to 16 this being introduced? 17 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor. I think for 18 the record that it's my understanding that the 19 circling was done at the deposition, if that makes any 20 difference to anybody. But other than that, I have no 21 objection to it. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I suppose if that 23 becomes important, you can put somebody on for that -- 24 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 25 THE COURT: -- if that's important. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 857 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I could make a 2 comment? 3 THE COURT: Sure. 4 THE WITNESS: This letter was full of lies 5 and innuendo, which ended up on the Internet, and was 6 the beginning of an unbelievable smear campaign that's 7 going on against us by Ms. Summers and other people 8 who are now part of Mr. Dandar's trial team. And -- 9 THE COURT: Well, we don't need this, so 10 just know you can't get into that. Maybe they'll ask 11 you something about it, and you can answer it. But I 12 don't need that kind of a discourse without a 13 question. 14 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll just ask one final 15 question on the letter. Was there -- 16 THE COURT: That reminds me. I'm getting a 17 couple things in the mail, anonymous. You know, "You 18 might want to see this," some Internet postings. 19 Typically I just would throw those things out. I 20 mean, I wouldn't bog the court file down. I'm happy 21 to put them in the court file. I mean, I don't pay 22 much attention to anonymous stuff off of an Internet 23 Web site. 24 What do you want me to do with it? 25 MR. FUGATE: You're getting them addressed KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 858 Volume 7, 1 to you -- 2 THE COURT: I got one. It came certified. 3 And, you know, Sue just stamps it in and puts it on my 4 desk. And it was an anonymous letter to me saying, 5 "You might want to read" -- I don't know what it said, 6 to tell you the truth. "You might want to read the 7 following," something about Mr. Hubbard and his -- 8 I'll show it to you all, and you tell me what to do -- 9 I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't get more. 10 It's not unusual for a judge to get mailings on a 11 high-profile case. I usually just throw them out or 12 file them in the court file. In this case, I normally 13 would just file it in the court file. If that's all 14 right, that's what I'll do. 15 MR. MOXON: One suggestion, your Honor. If 16 you keep the envelope, the post office can trace it 17 and see who is doing it. It's certified. 18 THE COURT: Well, this has an address on it. 19 MR. MOXON: Okay. 20 THE COURT: It's actually an address like 21 Clearwater, as I recall. But I normally put that in 22 the court file too. I mean, I just put the whole 23 thing in the court file. 24 I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say, do 25 you all want copies of this? This is not the kind of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 859 Volume 7, 1 stuff that I normally would think my secretary would 2 make copies of. 3 MR. FUGATE: I think for both sides to take 4 a look at as far as -- I don't think -- I mean, 5 there's so much paper in this case. 6 THE COURT: Well, I kind of figured. And 7 nobody would ever know what it was there for. So -- 8 but what I would like to do is just show it to you 9 all, and if you don't have any need for it -- 10 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't mean to speak for 11 them, but I certainly don't. 12 THE COURT: I will throw it away or file it 13 in the court file. I think I told my secretary just 14 before lunch to make a copy of this so you all can see 15 what I'm talking about. That was the first one I got, 16 but it wouldn't be surprising to me, if this case 17 ended up in trial, that I started getting mail. It's 18 not uncommon. 19 MR. LIROT: Thanks, Judge. 20 THE COURT: What I would really have to 21 worry about is if this was a death penalty case. Then 22 I do have to worry about it, because I have to be sure 23 everybody gets copies. And I put in an order that I 24 have -- you know, that can become bothersome. But in 25 a case like this -- anonymous Internet postings. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 860 Volume 7, 1 Worse than whatever it is they could send me, I 2 suppose. 3 Continue on. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Ms. Brooks, on the first page of that letter, I 6 guess Ms. Summers talks about in paragraph 1, or at least 7 the No. 1, it says, "The revelation in your recent 8 deposition of $800,000 that was donated to the LMT from 9 foreign sources and then every penny of that money was 10 delivered to Bob Minton is difficult to make sense of." 11 Down at the bottom, it continues to say, in the 12 next full paragraph, "I cannot make sense of this. If Bob 13 was the sole source of LMT funding and our salaries came 14 from the LMT account, how then can he be given $800,000 15 from this account and then turn around and claim there's no 16 money to pay our salaries?" 17 What does that refer to? Did Mr. Minton take 18 $800,000 out of the LMT account? 19 A No. 20 Q Was there a period of time that you gave 21 Mr. Minton money out of the LMT account? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. Can you tell me how much that was? 24 A $800,000. 25 Q Okay. And what was that for? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 861 Volume 7, 1 A It was to repay monies that he had put into the 2 LMT. 3 Q Was this -- was it hidden by you at some point 4 that all the money had come from Mr. Minton? 5 A I wasn't aware of it at that point. 6 Q Did you ever recant that statement anywhere else? 7 A That's already come up in this testimony. And 8 that was done. 9 Q Was there anything else in Ms. Summers' letter 10 that you felt appropriate to put in your two affidavits 11 recanting earlier testimony? 12 A No. 13 Q So you looked at this and said, "I've got this 14 one handled. Let's go on to the next one"? 15 A I looked at this and gave it the legitimacy that 16 it was due. 17 Q All right. The next document in that packet 18 appears to be an excerpt from a videotaped deposition of 19 you individually on September 7th of 2001. And again, that 20 document was given to me with the highlighted portions just 21 as they are. 22 THE COURT: What -- are you marking this? I 23 mean, we need a record here. Is this a number? 24 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll go ahead and we'll 25 put this entire packet in as Plaintiff's Exhibit KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 862 Volume 7, 1 No. 16. I don't have any copies of it. We just got 2 it this morning, and I only had time to make a few 3 copies of some of the things that I thought were more 4 interesting. 5 THE COURT: Well, why don't you make it then 6 a composite exhibit? 7 MR. LIROT: I will do that, Judge. We will 8 make this Plaintiff's Composite Exhibit No. 16. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, is the letter -- is 10 Ms. Summers' letter part of that composite -- 11 MR. LIROT: We'll make -- we'll make 12 Ms. Summers' letter a part of that. If you would like 13 to renumber -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we just make it a 15 Composite Exhibit 15? 16 THE COURT: 15, and Ms. Summers' letter will 17 be part of it. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 19 THE COURT: And I'll count on you making a 20 copy to the clerk and keeping your copy. 21 MR. LIROT: Very good. 22 THE COURT: If you think I need it for 23 whatever reason, why, you can make me a copy as well. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Now, describe to me that next item. You KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 863 Volume 7, 1 obviously -- I'm going on the belief that you looked at all 2 these documents that were provided to you and that you used 3 these to analyze -- to in fact comply with your desire to 4 make the record straight. Right? 5 A This was part of what I used. 6 Q Okay. What is the -- what's the information in 7 that particular -- I guess what I'll -- I guess this will 8 be Composite Exhibit 15, Sub C, we'll call this. And we'll 9 call the first -- the first excerpt A, Ms. Summers' letter 10 is B, and this will be 15C. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I just ask for -- 12 if we're going to do that, if we could go back to A 13 and just identify what pages, at least, of the 14 deposition there are so the record is clear. And then 15 on C, just -- because these are excerpts -- what pages 16 there are in the deposition that are in front of her. 17 I think that would be useful. 18 These are not the entire depos, I don't 19 believe, are they? 20 MR. LIROT: No. 21 THE COURT: I think the only thing this is 22 being put in the record for is just to show what she 23 was given, so -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: And just for the clarity of 25 the record, I would ask -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 864 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Whose deposition and what date? 2 Maybe you could tell us the pages. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. This is the cover page, 4 page 1 -- 5 THE COURT: Right. 6 THE WITNESS: -- deposition of Stacy Brooks, 7 August 15th, 2001, 1:35 p.m. 8 THE COURT: Pages? 9 THE WITNESS: Page 1, page 49, page 93, 94, 10 95, and 149. 11 THE COURT: Thank you. 12 Is that what you wanted? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. And each time we go 14 through a transcript, if we could do that. 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. WEINBERG: That would be useful. 17 MR. LIROT: I'll do that, Judge. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q So C would be your deposition of September 7th, 20 2001. And I don't have that copy. Can you tell the Court 21 what pages I've handed you that were part of this packet 22 provided to me. 23 A Page 1, page 40, and the reporter's deposition 24 certificate page. 25 Q And what was it that you reviewed in that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 865 Volume 7, 1 document that had any impact on the affidavits recanting 2 testimony that you offered? 3 A There was a document that Mr. Minton received 4 from Mr. Dandar. And Mr. Dandar had told Mr. Minton not to 5 tell anyone that he had gotten it from Mr. Dandar. And so 6 when I was asked, "Do you know" -- well, it says, "Do you 7 aware [sic] Mr. Minton got this report," but I think it 8 meant to say, "Do you know where Mr. Minton got this 9 report?" 10 And I said, "No. That was false." 11 So in my first recantation affidavit, it's 12 covered in Point B on page 2. 13 Q Okay. Do you know what the document was that you 14 referred to? The document in your recant affidavit. 15 A Oh. Yes. It was a report written by Brenda 16 Hubert concerning Lisa McPherson. 17 THE COURT: Report written by whom, ma'am? 18 THE WITNESS: A woman named Brenda Hubert. 19 THE COURT: Oh, that's that thing? 20 MR. FUGATE: That's the Brenda Hubert 21 knowledge report -- 22 THE COURT: Knowledge report, okay. 23 THE WITNESS: Right, the knowledge report. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q How was it that you were made aware of that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 866 Volume 7, 1 document? 2 A Mr. Minton told me he had it. 3 Q Anything else? Did he tell you how he got it? 4 A I just said he told me he got it from Mr. Dandar. 5 Q Fair enough. 6 The next one I have is Composite Exhibit 15D, 7 which is an excerpt of the videotaped deposition of Stacy 8 Brooks of June 23rd, 2000, and pages -- 9 THE COURT: How many depositions did you 10 have to give? 11 THE WITNESS: Many, many, many. 12 THE COURT: Wow. Maybe I should add you to 13 the list of the ones that probably had too many 14 depositions taken. 15 THE WITNESS: I was hoping you would do 16 that, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I thought you only 18 had one, so -- 19 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Well, then I'll add you to the 21 list as well. If you were deposed in two separate 22 cases about the same thing, that shouldn't have been 23 allowed to happen. And that's the fault of either me 24 or Judge Baird or both of us, but I'm not sure we were 25 exactly understanding that this was happening on both KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 867 Volume 7, 1 ends of the county. Certainly I was not. And I 2 apologize to you. That should not happen. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q All right. Ms. Brooks, just to make the record 6 clear, this is 15D, June 23rd, 2000 -- 7 THE COURT: And so that's clear, I'm not 8 being critical of counsel here. There are separate 9 counsel involved in these cases. But the deal is that 10 we shouldn't have witnesses coming in, take -- have 11 long depositions being taken about the same 12 information, when really they should be -- two lawyers 13 ought to be able to be there at the same time, one of 14 them ask questions, somebody else listen in, and the 15 deponent inconvenienced one time. 16 And I'm sure if Judge Baird and I had 17 realized that this was happening, he and I, one or the 18 other, would have said, well, you know, we're not 19 going to have this. It's not fair to the folks. 20 I can only assure you I really didn't 21 realize that this was happening. At least if I did, 22 I'm not aware of it. So that's what I was referring 23 to. And I'm sure Judge Baird would feel the same way. 24 One person to be deposed, there's two lawyers, well, 25 you tell the lawyers to consolidate these things, take KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 868 Volume 7, 1 them together. 2 I'm not suggesting if only one is there that 3 the other doesn't have a right to take a deposition. 4 We don't normally put witnesses through duplicate, 5 very lengthy depositions. 6 MR. LIROT: We certainly acknowledge that, 7 your Honor. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q What I'm referring to here is 15D, June 23rd, 10 2000. And just for the record, it says here, "Do you know 11 if Mr. Minton" -- I guess I'll give the page numbers. It's 12 the cover page, page 126, and then the certificate page of 13 146. 14 And the question here was whether or not 15 Mr. Minton provided any money to Dell Liebreich. Your 16 answer was: "I don't know." 17 The question was: "Do you know if there's any 18 agreement with Dell Liebreich and Mr. Minton with respect 19 to the potential proceeds of this case?" 20 Your answer was: "Well, that's been discussed, I 21 know that." 22 Then question, which isn't a question: "It 23 certainly has." 24 And then Mr. Bolt says: "Now, that's a yes or no 25 question, Ms. Brooks." KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 869 Volume 7, 1 And the answer was: "To be honest, I'm not 2 sure." 3 Now, this was in June of 2000, and I'll hand that 4 to you so you can look at that. And that was part of the 5 packet that was provided to you relative to the affidavits 6 that you prepared to recant earlier testimony. And I think 7 it's pretty clear that you used that in some fashion to 8 recant earlier testimony in some of your affidavits, right? 9 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 10 testifying. And also for point of clarification, I 11 think the entire -- the entirety of the depositions 12 were also provided. So this is somewhat confusing, 13 and I don't know -- 14 I don't want to interject myself into the 15 cross, but don't you have copies of each of her 16 depositions as well, as well as the highlighted 17 portions? 18 MR. LIROT: We don't know what you gave her. 19 That's only what we're going by. 20 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'll go back and -- 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: -- let the submission, but I do 23 object to the testifying. 24 THE COURT: That would be sustained. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 870 Volume 7, 1 Q Well, I guess my question was, Were these 2 excerpts given to you, or did you get the entire 3 depositions for those dates? 4 A I believe I had more than this, for sure. 5 MR. LIROT: Well, then, Judge, I need some 6 clarification. Is counsel's position that the whole 7 deposition was given to Ms. Brooks and that just these 8 highlighted portions were given to us? 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm confused because I 10 don't know what's over there now. I know that the 11 request was both to both counsel for Ms. Brooks and 12 counsel for Mr. Minton for the entire depositions. 13 And as I sit here, I know that all of Mr. Minton's 14 depositions were given to him. I do believe -- and I 15 thought Ms. Brooks' were. If we need to give those in 16 their entirety to them, we will. But Mr. McGowan can 17 clear that up. If we only gave excerpts, we only gave 18 excerpts. 19 Do you remember? 20 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I believe that 21 there were excerpts, but I believe separate from the 22 excerpts were the entire depositions. 23 THE COURT: So but there were excerpts? 24 These were excerpts? 25 MR. McGOWAN: There were excerpts, and then KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 871 Volume 7, 1 there were depositions. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. LIROT: And, Judge, I think we requested 4 the excerpts. We were interested in what was 5 highlighted. That's what we were interested in. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's what I'm looking 7 at here, just this highlighting. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q The next document I'm going to hand to you is 11 apparently a notice of filing plaintiff's witness list, 12 which appears to be an April 17th, 2000, witness list in 13 the wrongful death case when it was still in Hillsborough 14 county. And it looks like the only highlighted portion 15 here is the name Teresa Summers. What significance would 16 that have being placed in this packet? 17 A Well, it was my understanding -- and I'm going to 18 refer to documents that you haven't yet put in evidence 19 that should be in your package. It was my understanding 20 that the reason this was included was that there was 21 testimony by me in another excerpt, which we haven't talked 22 about yet, about whether or not I knew Teresa Summers or 23 something. And I can't remember exactly, and I'd have to 24 look at it again. But there was -- clearly, someone had 25 thought that I was -- that I had lied about my knowledge of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 872 Volume 7, 1 Teresa Summers in some way. But I did not include this 2 because I didn't feel that that was the case based on the 3 dates of the various documents that I reviewed. 4 Q Okay. Well, this might clear it up. I guess 5 Composite Exhibit 15 Sub F appears to be the cover page or 6 at least page 4 of Ms. Summers' deposition of June 13th of 7 2000. And just the -- I guess the next page is page 5, and 8 it just has one page of her direct examination. And 9 there's nothing highlighted on this. Does this refresh 10 your memory as to the significance of those documents? 11 A I believe I was given more than this, but -- 12 Q I think you were too, actually. I see what I'll 13 call Exhibit 15G. It appears to be the deposition of Stacy 14 Brooks from June 23rd of 2000 -- oops. And it's the cover 15 page, and then pages 254, 255, and then the signature page 16 of 283. Let me hand you that, because it looks like 17 there's certain questions asked of you regarding 18 Ms. Summers' in this excerpt. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think he said it, but 20 the presumption is that 15E was little witness list. 21 Is that what he said it was? 22 MR. DANDAR: Yes, that's what he said it 23 was. 24 MR. LIROT: Yes. 25 A Okay. I should probably read this to the Court KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 873 Volume 7, 1 so that she can understand what I'm about to say. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: The highlighted part: 4 The question: "Teresa Summers, you claim, 5 has come to you?" 6 And my answer, "Is she a witness? She has 7 contacted us. We did not contact her." 8 THE COURT: Maybe I don't -- that's -- 9 THE WITNESS: It's to the LMT. 10 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 11 Has come to you as an employee -- oh, this 12 is to be taught -- in other words, LMT, you told me 13 the other day that one of the things that LMT did was 14 to counsel people -- 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: -- who left the Church. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Is that what you're talking 19 about? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: And the question was: "When 23 was this?" 24 Answer: "Recently." 25 And then question: "When?" KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 874 Volume 7, 1 And then my answer: "You know, this is 2 going to get this girl in trouble. I don't like 3 this." 4 And then the counsel said: "She's 5 testified." 6 And then Mr. Dandar said to me: "We've 7 already deposed her. She's been deposed." 8 And then I say: "Oh, okay." And then: "So 9 what's the question?" 10 And the question: "When did you talk to 11 Teresa Summers?" 12 And the answer: "I haven't talked to Teresa 13 Summers. I haven't talked to Teresa Summers." 14 And the question: Who talked to Teresa 15 Summers in the LMT?" 16 And my answer: "Nobody. She sent an e-mail 17 or maybe a letter." 18 And question: "When? When?" 19 And the answer: "Actually, I think she sent 20 it -- well, it was to Jesse, and it was received maybe 21 two days ago." 22 Okay. So that was the testimony. And I 23 believe that someone -- or, I thought at the time that 24 someone may have thought that I was lying about not 25 knowing her at that time, but in fact what I said was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 875 Volume 7, 1 true -- 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Okay. 4 A -- because -- well, it was true. 5 Q Okay. Composite Exhibit 15H is an excerpt of 6 Ms. Summers' deposition of September 5th, 2001, with a 7 cover page, pages 36, 37, and the signature page of 8 page 105. And I guess there are only two questions. There 9 on page 36, they ask about Ms. Summers having worked for 10 the LMT, and the other question is about Ms. Summers making 11 complaints about the Church. And I'll hand you this. 12 THE COURT: I thought she was a consultant. 13 No. Was this somebody else? 14 MR. DANDAR: This is a former Scientologist. 15 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 16 MR. DANDAR: Not retained by the plaintiff. 17 THE WITNESS: But on his witness list. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 THE WITNESS: On the plaintiff's witness 20 list. 21 THE COURT: Well, was she the one -- I 22 remember when you were going through, at somebody's 23 request, a group of people who had worked for LMT -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. She was one of them. 25 THE COURT: -- and one of them in particular KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 876 Volume 7, 1 you said had really done a lot of work and done 2 some -- 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. That was Teresa Summers. 4 THE COURT: Okay. That's where I heard the 5 name then. 6 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to read the 7 highlighted part every time? 8 THE COURT: I don't. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 MR. LIROT: No. 11 THE COURT: I'm not saying -- if counsel 12 wants you to, but . . . 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Now, I take it that the explanation there about 16 your knowledge of Ms. Summers coincides with the dates of 17 that excerpt. Is that correct? 18 A I'm sorry, I -- say that again. 19 Q You said that you had not said anything 20 untruthful about your knowledge -- 21 A Oh. 22 Q -- or relationship with Ms. Summers at the LMT, 23 and they speak about dates in that certain highlighted 24 section. 25 A Right. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 877 Volume 7, 1 Q So that's consistent with you? 2 A Yes. This was September 5th, 2001 -- 3 Q Right. 4 A -- and this is Teresa's deposition on 5 September 5th, 2001. 6 Q And that's her deposition. So obviously you 7 don't know what she testified to. That's just some point 8 of reference for you, right? 9 A Right. 10 Q All right. The next sub exhibit I have is 15I, 11 and this is an excerpt from the September 7th, 2001, 12 deposition of Stacy Brooks as representative of the Lisa 13 McPherson Trust. And this is page 1, the cover page; 14 page 60; page 107; page 108; and then the signature page. 15 And I'll hand this document to you. There looks 16 to be only two things about -- one being the LMT office 17 being operated out of Mr. Dandar's office, and I think you 18 already testified to that. Wasn't it true that the only -- 19 the only thing she did at Mr. Dandar's office was try to 20 find office space for the LMT, make phone calls from there 21 for a little while? 22 A Well, we operated out of -- yes, it is true to a 23 certain degree. We did operate out of Mr. Dandar's office 24 until we had our own office. So part of what I was doing 25 was -- you know, Mr. Dandar let us work out of his office KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 878 Volume 7, 1 to find our office. 2 Q Okay. And there was something else in that 3 segment about a check going to Mr. Spector? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you know who Mr. Spector is? Can you tell the 6 Court? 7 A He's been in the courtroom, your Honor. He's 8 Mr. Dandar's videographer and a private investigator who 9 works for Mr. Dandar. 10 Q And I think the question was, Did the Lisa 11 McPherson Trust ever pay Mr. Spector for anything? 12 A Right. And I said I don't think so. 13 Q And then I think -- 14 A But I had to correct that in my first recantation 15 affidavit because I found a check for $168. 16 Q Right. Well, we'll call that Exhibit 15J. And 17 that looks to be, at least to some extent -- a little bit 18 bad copy -- but at least a copy of the check to Mr. Spector 19 for $168? 20 A Correct. 21 THE COURT: From LMT? 22 MR. LIROT: Pardon me? 23 THE COURT: From LMT? 24 THE WITNESS: From LMT, yes, your Honor. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 879 Volume 7, 1 Q What was that check for? 2 A As I recall, it was for a copy of a videotape of 3 one of my depositions. I think that's what it was for. 4 THE COURT: Did the Church have the LMT 5 checks? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Have those been produced at some 8 time? 9 MR. DANDAR: Deposition (nodding 10 affirmatively). 11 THE COURT: Okay. So these were some checks 12 pursuant to a request to produce? 13 MR. DANDAR: At the deposition of the bank. 14 THE COURT: Oh, okay. One of those ones 15 that says if -- in other words, they give you the ten 16 days to object, and if you don't object, then the 17 people send the -- 18 MR. DANDAR: No -- 19 THE COURT: -- documents. There's no -- no, 20 this is a deposition. 21 MR. DANDAR: It's a real deposition. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Because there wasn't 23 anything wrong with it. That check was given 24 pursuant -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 880 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: -- to the work that had been 2 done by him -- 3 THE WITNESS: Oh. 4 THE COURT: -- for LMT -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: -- for you or -- 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 THE COURT: But you had said you didn't 9 think so and -- 10 THE WITNESS: Right. 11 THE COURT: -- you were just correcting your 12 testimony. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q All right. Ms. Brooks, the next one will be 15K, 17 which appears to be excerpts of your deposition of 18 August 15th, 2001. And it has the cover page, page 1; 19 page 62; page 63; page 72; and then the signature page, 20 149. And there look to be two -- two areas highlighted 21 here. One highlighted is a question. It says: "You have 22 no statements of any, slash, no written statements by any 23 of the witnesses in this case?" 24 And your answer was: "No." 25 And then there's another highlighted part. It KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 881 Volume 7, 1 says -- your question was -- or, your answer, I guess: 2 "Why not? I don't have any reason to have any statements 3 by witnesses. I'm not involved in this case." 4 What was there you needed to recant about that? 5 Did you review those particular excerpts? 6 A Can I see that one? 7 Q Yes, you can. There was a lengthy part I want to 8 get to, but I guess I'll retrieve it back after you answer 9 the first part of my question. 10 THE COURT: I think if that's your only copy 11 you'd better make sure you get all that stuff back if 12 you're going to copy it for the clerk. 13 A Okay. Sorry. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q I haven't gotten to the second part yet, just 16 about the witness statements. Anything there that you were 17 made aware of that you needed to recant? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. What was it in that particular statement 20 that you had to set the record straight on? 21 A Well, this was a document production line of 22 questioning. And this is -- I need a few pages earlier, 23 but I believe this was referring to the unedited videotape, 24 either the unedited videotape or information -- or data on 25 our hard drives. And I did have to inform the Court that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 882 Volume 7, 1 the hard drives were removed and they've now been turned 2 over to the special master. And the unedited videotape 3 also needs to be turned over to the special master. 4 Q Okay. 5 THE COURT: I kept reading about this in 6 this series of orders signed by the judge. I don't 7 even know what they are. 8 MR. McGOWAN: I do. There were a series 9 of -- I don't know how many. They were unedited 10 videotapes at the LMT. My understanding is -- 11 THE COURT: Unedited what? 12 MR. McGOWAN: Videotapes. Of what, I don't 13 know. 14 THE WITNESS: I can explain. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. McGOWAN: But there was a body of 17 videotapes that existed. They were removed from the 18 LMT, my understanding it is, by John Merrett. 19 I have made numerous attempts to contact 20 Mr. Merrett and get those back. He was supposed to 21 call my office today. As of the lunch break, he had 22 not. We were trying to retrieve those to get them 23 into the hands of the special master. What is on 24 those, I have no idea. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Brooks, what are KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 883 Volume 7, 1 they? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, in fact the entire body 3 of unedited videotapes is the property of our 4 videographer, whose name is Mark Bunker. And a lot of 5 the unedited videotapes are things that he videoed 6 before he was doing anything with the LMT at all. But 7 some of the unedited videotape is of -- you know, it's 8 picket footage. I'm not sure what else it is, but it 9 has to do with Scientology in some way. 10 And the history of the discovery on this, to 11 my understanding is that at first Judge Moody -- and I 12 may be wrong about this, but this is my recollection. 13 At first Judge Moody had limited what should be turned 14 over just to statements by witnesses on the list. And 15 then somehow or another it got expanded to being 16 anything at all about Scientology, or at least that 17 was my understanding. And so -- 18 THE COURT: Not said by a witness in this 19 case -- 20 THE WITNESS: Right. 21 THE COURT: -- but just any old body -- 22 THE WITNESS: Said by anybody. 23 THE COURT: Well, that would have been too 24 broad, most likely, of an order, but -- 25 THE WITNESS: Well, but it was the order -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 884 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: -- as far as I know. So, you 3 know, unfortunately, I felt that it was too broad of 4 an order, and I took it upon myself not to comply. So 5 that was the wrong thing to do. So now we're trying 6 to get the videotape back. 7 And then what we'll have to do, I think, is 8 have Mark Bunker come down here and work with the 9 special master to go through each reel of unedited 10 videotape to identify which -- which ones are relevant 11 to this proceeding and which ones really are not. 12 MR. FUGATE: Does that mean if you get them 13 back from Mr. Merrett -- I hate to interrupt. 14 But you don't have them, right? 15 MR. McGOWAN: No. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett was quite a prize. 17 He was the one that used to appear by phone -- 18 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 19 THE COURT: -- and on what I would consider 20 to be some fairly important matters. And to me, it's 21 difficult to deal with a lawyer on important matters 22 over the telephone. 23 But if you're suggesting -- and I don't 24 know, somebody better contact Mr. Merrett, because if 25 Mr. Merrett, knowing that there was a court order that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 885 Volume 7, 1 said there was something to be produced -- and I 2 already heard Ms. Brooks say that Mr. Merrett said 3 leave them in the hallway, and didn't show up. 4 Mr. Merrett might find himself in some difficulty. 5 So Mr. Merrett most likely, would be my 6 guess, isn't going to have those videotapes. He's not 7 going to know what you're talking about. Maybe I'm 8 wrong. But I don't know. I just imagine that's why 9 you haven't heard from him. 10 MR. McGOWAN: I have actually heard -- 11 THE COURT: He, by the way -- he, by the 12 way, is, as I said -- just all I can say is quite a 13 character. I mean, and I'm not saying that -- he just 14 walks to a different drummer. 15 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, with -- in hopes 16 that he would comply, in hopes that your Honor was 17 wrong about that, it was my intention to give him 18 today to do that, or at least to turn them over, and 19 if I didn't hear from him today I would get either a 20 subpoena or court order and we'd bring it to the 21 Court's attention. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. McGOWAN: Hopefully, that won't be 24 necessary. If it is, it is. 25 THE COURT: Well, as you know, as I said, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 886 Volume 7, 1 I'll be happy to command Mr. Merrett to appear in 2 court with anything that he took that was ordered 3 turned over by the Court and he said put out in the 4 hallway and just whisked them away. But I'm betting 5 you, he won't show up with a box for us. 6 MR. McGOWAN: Well, your Honor, I'm still 7 struggling for phone numbers. But I would -- 8 MR. DANDAR: Judge, the plaintiff would love 9 for you to issue an order to have him appear in court 10 this week. 11 THE COURT: Well, you know, as I said, 12 Mr. Merrett has never -- luckily, Mr. Merrett 13 practices in Jacksonville, and I don't have to deal 14 with Mr. Merrett very often. 15 MR. DANDAR: But I have to deal with him. 16 THE COURT: I guess I was just traveling -- 17 this was another Court's problem. My guess is he 18 knows what's going on here and what is being suggested 19 about these tapes. I don't know, but I expect that if 20 he ever had them, they were deep-sixed somewhere and 21 he's never going to admit it. This is my guess. Now, 22 I could be wrong. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. 24 MR. DANDAR: Would you let him appear by 25 phone? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 887 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: I think he'll produce them. 2 He's out of town. 3 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 4 MR. DANDAR: Judge, would you let him appear 5 by phone? 6 THE COURT: No, I absolutely will not. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. I mean -- 8 THE COURT: I mean for what? How can he 9 bring something by the telephone? 10 MR. DANDAR: Well, he can tell you what it 11 is and where it is and why he hasn't produced it and 12 also testify in reference to the allegations 13 Ms. Brooks has made against him. 14 THE COURT: Well, he can -- what's wrong 15 with this man? Something like this, his -- his 16 practice of law has been challenged. You mean he's 17 just too damn arrogant to get in the car and come down 18 here and defend himself or -- 19 MR. DANDAR: That I can't answer. 20 THE COURT: Well, that's what I sure would 21 do if I were a lawyer and I had these kind of 22 accusations being made. I would either -- I would 23 either -- but I wouldn't say: Gee, Judge, if you 24 don't mind again, once again, let me just appear on 25 the telephone. That's good enough for you. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 888 Volume 7, 1 So, yes, I'll let him appear by phone, and 2 if his credibility is at issue, I guess I'll just have 3 to guess. 4 MR. DANDAR: (Gestured.) 5 MR. LIROT: Well, I guess -- 6 THE COURT: I don't think he served his 7 client very well, what he would be appearing on, what 8 I perceived his client must have thought were some 9 fairly important matters. Over a telephone, it's 10 difficult to -- you do the best you can. But, I mean, 11 what happens is lawyers are talking and the judge 12 wants to interrupt or the other side does, and the 13 next thing you know they're still prattling. They've 14 been prattling, and you don't know even know what they 15 said. It's just not a very good way to do business in 16 an important matter. 17 I suppose Mr. Minton was paying him well, 18 and Mr. Minton would probably have paid him to come 19 down and represent him. That didn't seem to be a very 20 good thing for him to do. If he was too far away, 21 then he probably needed to retain local counsel to 22 come in. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q With that as an introduction, Judge. On page 72, 25 the question posed to Ms. Brooks: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 889 Volume 7, 1 Question, it says: "I just want to make it very 2 clear then -- correct me if I'm wrong -- your testimony is 3 that there's not a single piece of paper in the LMT 4 building which is a statement by you or Minton or Prince 5 concerning Scientology, concerning any issue in this case, 6 or concerning Lisa McPherson. Correct?" 7 Your answer, Ms. Brooks, was: "That's correct. 8 The only place anything exists like that are in John 9 Merrett's files, which are his files." 10 Question: "So you gave some files to 11 Mr. Merrett?" 12 Answer: "Well, he -- he is in charge of all of 13 our legal files, and they have -- I believe they probably 14 have -- well, to be honest, I don't know if they do or not. 15 I asked Mr. Merrett if there was anything in his files 16 responsive, and he said no. Other than that, you know, 17 said, 'Anything in my files is a attorney work product or 18 attorney/client privilege.'" 19 Question: "So there might be some documents, but 20 you consider them to be privileged?" 21 Answer: Well, what he told me is that they were 22 legal documents and that wasn't something that I needed to 23 be concerned about in this document production." 24 And that's the conclusion of that, so I think in 25 your affidavit you put something to the effect of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 890 Volume 7, 1 Mr. Merrett being an extension of Mr. Dandar? 2 A Not by this point. By this point, we were 3 extremely alienated from Mr. Dandar, and the relationship 4 had changed. 5 THE COURT: Between you all or between 6 Mr. Merrett and Mr. Dandar? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Merrett representing 8 us; therefore, his relationship had changed as well. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q The next document I have is Sub Exhibit K, and 11 this is a videotaped deposition of Stacy Brooks from 12 September 7th, 2001. I have the cover page 1 -- 13 THE COURT: Maybe I'm all wet here. Did I 14 not -- did I not read in an affidavit where somebody 15 alleged that Mr. Merrett said, about something that 16 was compelled or supposed to be delivered at a 17 deposition, "Just leave it outside and I'll take care 18 of it"? 19 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Who said that, Ms. Brooks? 21 THE WITNESS: I think I said that, your 22 Honor. 23 MR. FUGATE: And that's in reference to the 24 videotapes. 25 THE COURT: That's in reference to the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 891 Volume 7, 1 videotapes. And then they disappeared, never to be 2 seen again. And this lawyer knew that they were 3 supposed to be produced. And this lawyer said, "Leave 4 them out in the hallway, and they'll be gone"? And 5 he's going to come in and tell me that and say, "Here 6 they are, and I whisked them away so she wouldn't 7 produce them"? Well, good for him. 8 MR. LIROT: Oh, did I publish -- I'm sorry, 9 this is L. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q All right. September 7th, 2001, will be Sub 12 Exhibit 15L, and Ms. Brooks' deposition from September 7th 13 of 2001, on page 1, I have page 78, and I have the 14 signature page. And this deals with destruction of records 15 from LMT. And I'll go ahead and hand you that, Ms. Brooks. 16 And I'll ask if you reviewed that in preparing your 17 affidavit. 18 THE COURT: What is that, Counselor? 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, this is the -- an excerpt 20 from Ms. Brooks' deposition of 9/7/01, September 7th, 21 2001. And they're asking her questions about the 22 destruction of some documents at the LMT. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q And I'll go ahead and ask you, for the Court's 25 edification, just to read what the questions and answers KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 892 Volume 7, 1 are on that page. 2 THE COURT: What does it say on the front, 3 did you say? 4 MR. LIROT: It's the cover page of her -- 5 it's a videotape -- it's a transcript of a videotaped 6 deposition from September 7th, 2001, of Stacy Brooks. 7 A Do you want me to read the highlighted part? 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Sure. Please. That's what I've been focusing 10 on. 11 A Question, by Mr. Moxon: "Just to clarify one 12 point you've mentioned here, since May of 2000, you 13 periodically destroyed all e-mails to and from Mr. Prince, 14 yourself, Mr. Minton, Mr. Jacobsen, Mr. Bunker, and 15 Ms. Summers that came into LMT computers?" 16 Answer: "Correct." 17 Question: "You also did that since July, 18 obviously, right?" 19 Answer: "As I said, we have a policy --" 20 Question: "Yes." 21 Answer: "-- that we do not retain records." 22 Question: "Okay. The answer is yes, you 23 destroyed everything from May to the present, and you did 24 it periodically?" 25 Answer: "Yes. Shall I read my declaration into KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 893 Volume 7, 1 the record about it?" 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Okay. Did you have such a policy? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And what was that policy? 6 A Well, our security person, whose name is Grady 7 Ward, instituted a policy with everybody, which he 8 communicated to them via several e-mails -- a whole 9 procedure that the people were supposed to follow to 10 maintain the security of their records. 11 Q And what did that have to do with destroying 12 records? 13 A Well -- 14 THE COURT: Well, deleting them. Are you 15 talking about e-mails now? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I am. 17 (The Court's judicial assistant, Mrs. Rudd, 18 entered the courtroom and spoke to the Court 19 off the record.) 20 THE COURT: Excuse me. 21 Give me just a second here. 22 For the information of the people -- I'm not 23 going to tell you who this is from, but this is 24 something from the person who apparently sent the 25 materials to me in the mail, who is most distressed KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 894 Volume 7, 1 that I was going to give those up. But I must admit, 2 I'm wondering whose -- I mean -- 3 THE WITNESS: How does he know? 4 THE COURT: I don't know. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe you could do something 6 of a side bar, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Well, I really can't, because 8 this is somebody is that very frightened of my giving 9 this information to counsel and indicating that she's 10 got children and she's a sitting duck and on and on. 11 And I don't know what to do with it, to tell 12 you the truth. I just am not used to getting 13 something delivered to me in the middle of a hearing. 14 Obviously, my secretary must have thought it was 15 rather important, so I'm going to take just about five 16 minutes and reflect on it, and then I'll let you all 17 know what I'm going to do with it. 18 Anybody that's here, don't send me stuff 19 unless you want me to put it in the court file. 20 That's what I do with stuff. I don't do ex parte 21 stuff. If somebody sends me stuff, it goes in the 22 court file. 23 (A break was taken at 3:05 p.m. until 24 3:22 p.m.) 25 THE COURT: Okay. I think what -- I'll put KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 895 Volume 7, 1 this in an envelope, which I'll put it back in. The 2 fear of this person, apparently, was that this 3 certified -- I mean, it always amazes me, somebody 4 sends me certified mail -- which means, in other 5 words, they know that I've got it and now -- I don't 6 know what they thought I was going to do with it. 7 Somebody is going to come along years down the road 8 and say, "What did you do with that? I don't know 9 what you're talking about." 10 They paid $9 to have this delivered to me. 11 As I say, it is a -- it's talking about some gloating 12 Internet posts made on April 7th, transferred from 13 www.altreligion-.scientology.org to www.xenu.net. 14 It says: "While there's no way to know for 15 certain who made them," I could only have -- "it could 16 only have been by someone very close to the McPherson 17 case, with intimate knowledge of the behind-the-scenes 18 goings-on because they were posted prior to all this 19 being made public. Also enclosed are direct quotes 20 from L. Ron Hubbard. They speak for themselves. It 21 might be considered that the dictates are being 22 followed precisely." 23 And then it goes on: "He with the deepest 24 pocket" -- I don't know if I read this as carefully as 25 I'm reading it now -- "He with the deepest pockets and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 896 Volume 7, 1 most skilled lawyers and heavy-handed tactics 2 shouldn't necessarily win or lose. Justice will have 3 been served and the judicial system allowed to work as 4 it was designed and both sides are allowed to present 5 their case to twelve jurors" -- somebody doesn't know 6 the Florida system, obviously, very well -- "let the 7 chips fall where they may. Then only then will we 8 have all won." 9 And there's a quote here: "The truth is too 10 simple. It must always be arrived at through 11 complication. Blessings to you and your work and 12 life," unsigned. 13 And then there are some postings here, 14 page 1 of 40. Must have been a big night or 15 something. I don't know if that means there's 40 16 pages or what, but I've got 1 of 40 and 2 of 40. 17 And at the top it says: "Bob and Stacy in 18 court, true or," dot, dot, dot, dot. "Operation 19 Clambake forum, opinion and debate." 20 What is that? I don't even know what this 21 is. Is this what these postings are -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: -- that everybody keeps talking 24 about? I keep telling you all, maybe one of these 25 days you all ought to invite me to go to a couple of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 897 Volume 7, 1 these so I can look at them, because I don't go to 2 these places that have postings. 3 THE WITNESS: You don't want to. 4 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 5 Anyway, it appears there's inquiry being 6 made here as to whether or not Bob and Stacy have -- I 7 guess that being Mr. Minton and the lady right here 8 before us as we're talking about -- are going to go 9 in, and what is -- what is apparently of importance 10 that I read, the only thing that's seemingly 11 underlined -- and I believe this was the way I 12 received it: "Tomorrow morning Bob Minton will walk 13 into Wally Pope's office and suborn perjury by telling 14 all the lies Scientology asks him to" -- I don't know 15 what these little daggers, little caret marks -- "with 16 the anticipated result of bringing down the," caret 17 marks, "case." 18 So I guess that is what this was referring 19 to, that this must be somebody close to this. And 20 then there's a bunch of stuff -- I couldn't even tell 21 which side wrote this because -- 22 THE WITNESS: It's hard to tell. 23 THE COURT: It's hard to tell, because on 24 the other thing -- I mean, I suppose that somebody 25 telling the group that's listening that Bob and Stacy KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 898 Volume 7, 1 are going to try to ruin this case, but then I've got 2 some stuff that sounds like it come from a -- maybe, I 3 don't know -- the Church is going to acknowledge that 4 these were supporters. But -- 5 THE WITNESS: What's it say? 6 THE COURT: Well, it says: "Minton must be 7 in some deep shit. He's supposed to take the deal the 8 Church offered him. What a sucker. We always knew he 9 would roll over. How do you like your boy now? Why 10 don't you ask him" what he and Stacy -- "why he and 11 Stacy Brooks were meeting with Church officials until 12 wee hours of Sunday morning? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha." 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. This was someone who 14 obviously was following us. 15 THE COURT: "Keep idolizing Minton, but how 16 will you rationalize --" 17 I mean, I don't know. But anyway, the deal 18 is, was when I said I was going to give this to you 19 all -- oh, the last page, I'm sorry, is Ron Hubbard in 20 his own words. And there's -- I wouldn't know what it 21 was, to tell you the truth, and I don't believe I read 22 it. There is something here underlined. I wouldn't 23 even know what it meant. "Branch 5 Project, Project 24 Swirl." Anyway. And then of course there's this 25 letter. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 899 Volume 7, 1 Now, of course, now I've got this, which 2 seems to say, "What in the hell are you thinking?" 3 And then it says: I'm the one that sent you the 4 Internet postings. I did it because" -- and the quote 5 from Ron Hubbard. "I did it because I thought it was 6 very revealing. If I were in your position, I would 7 have wanted that information." 8 Well, don't do me any favors, folks. I've 9 got all the information I could deal with. 10 And then it says: "Approximately ten days 11 ago, I had a recording of a blood-curdling, 12 terror-filled message left on my voice mail. I 13 received an e-mail with a message" -- I don't have any 14 idea what this means -- "PM exiting, and my computer 15 was" -- a word, I don't even know what it is -- "with 16 advertisements for life insurance. Unknown charges 17 have appeared on my credit card." 18 And then this next might be revealing to 19 this person if she identifies -- something personal 20 about her. She's a sitting duck. "And now you're 21 going to hand them my name" -- I wonder who "they" 22 are -- "my name and address. I'm the source of giving 23 you that info." 24 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I think 25 "them" -- she thinks Scientology is going to do KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 900 Volume 7, 1 something to hurt her. 2 THE COURT: "If ever there was a case of 3 directly feeding someone to the lions, that would be 4 it. You're the judge. Use good judgment." 5 And then I suppose this was this woman's 6 name. So I've got a name, apparently. I've got a 7 name on here, and I've got this $9.09 envelope that's 8 got an address. And then I've got somebody suggesting 9 that I'm going to be feeding this person to a lion's 10 den if I -- but in essence, that's what it is. 11 I've asked my secretary to take one of these 12 copies and go talk to somebody to see if what I've got 13 from this person, anybody would know -- I mean, I 14 don't want to -- if somebody doesn't understand it, 15 let it be clear. I mean, when you give a judge 16 something, the judge generally throws it in the 17 wastebasket, files it in the court file, or gives it 18 to the lawyer, depending on the case and what the 19 import of it is or what have you. 20 I brought this up only because I figured I 21 might start getting more of these, and I thought I 22 might want you all to tell me what you wanted me to 23 do, whether you wanted a copy, whether you wanted it 24 thrown in the court file, thrown in the wastebasket. 25 Any of this would have been okay with me. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 901 Volume 7, 1 But now that somebody suggests that if I 2 reveal this that somebody is going to be in harm's 3 way -- which I don't believe -- I'm not sure what it 4 is I should do. So I'm going to think about it 5 overnight, and maybe you all would think about it 6 overnight and give me some suggestions. 7 MR. FUGATE: Judge, obviously, if she's 8 looking to -- if I heard correctly what you read in 9 the handwritten note, that somebody was in the 10 courtroom and then left when they thought you were 11 going to reveal it. There's only one person that has 12 come and gone, and that was a blond woman, who I have 13 no idea who she was, sitting in the second row there. 14 And the only person that we saw her have contact with 15 was Mr. Jesse Prince, who was standing in the hallway. 16 So I can't tell you anything other than 17 that -- the old Florida circumstantial evidence 18 instruction -- I don't know what that means. But 19 that's what happened. I mean, obviously whoever gave 20 that to you was sitting in the courtroom and realized 21 you were going to give it up, wrote the letter and 22 took it to your J.A. 23 THE COURT: Well, it -- nonetheless, it's 24 somebody suggesting that if I give this up, they 25 can't -- as I said, it's "What in the hell are you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 902 Volume 7, 1 thinking of?" Well, I thought I was thinking like a 2 judge. 3 But I just -- I'm just going to tell you I'm 4 going to think about this overnight. I don't -- I 5 don't know that anybody really needs to know who that 6 was. Does anybody need to know who this person was? 7 MR. LIROT: We don't need to know anything, 8 Judge. 9 THE COURT: I mean, would that -- 10 MR. MOXON: Judge, we don't care who it was. 11 Our only concern is that there was an attempt to, you 12 know, influence the Court by somebody who has been 13 talking -- the woman that was talking to Mr. Lirot at 14 the last hearing and was talking to Mr. Prince in the 15 hallway. 16 THE COURT: Well, trust me. 17 MR. MOXON: I know that you wouldn't -- 18 THE COURT: And you know that -- 19 MR. MOXON: Of course not. 20 THE COURT: -- I get this stuff all the 21 time. When I used to be at criminal, I mean, I got 22 letters all the time: This guy needs to be put away, 23 up -- you know, hung from a tree. And this guy is a 24 wonderful fellow. 25 And I just didn't pay much attention to that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 903 Volume 7, 1 stuff. I just usually filed it in the court file. 2 But on death penalty cases, as I said, I would have to 3 try not to read them and put them in a box and try, if 4 I did hand them out -- and there's all kinds of 5 problems. 6 This is not a death penalty case. So, as I 7 said, I just was trying to get a feel for how we might 8 want to deal with it. But I don't want somebody to -- 9 they think they sent me something and now all of a 10 sudden I'm -- 11 MR. MOXON: Judge, we don't care. We don't 12 care. 13 THE COURT: You don't care, nobody cares. 14 Then the best thing to do is just to tell my secretary 15 to shred this. I'll file the original in the court 16 file without the envelope, throw this thing away, that 17 hand letter away. And assuming that there's nothing 18 in here that's identifying, I'll give you copies of 19 it. But as I said, I read it more fully in court 20 today than I ever read it. 21 MR. FUGATE: Well, the only concern I have 22 Judge, and my first impulse I stated to the Court when 23 you read the first one was just throw them away. But 24 if it's someone who is providing the Court something 25 and attempting -- and I know that it won't -- to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 904 Volume 7, 1 influence your Honor and that someone is having 2 contact with Jesse Prince, I do have a problem with 3 that. But I don't know that there's anything we're 4 going to be able to do with it based on what you've 5 got right there. And that's my concern. 6 I mean, I think that we're all here to try 7 to get this hearing over with, and the less of this, 8 the more likely we are to get it over with. But I 9 don't want to have somebody think they can come in to 10 give things to the Court to influence the Court. And 11 I think both sides ought to be instructed fairly to 12 make sure that anybody on either side keeps that from 13 happening. 14 THE COURT: But, you know, it's real hard. 15 I mean, I understand why neither side -- I mean, I've 16 been involved in this court system for 20 years. 17 People send stuff to the judge. And naturally they're 18 trying to influence them. That's why they send it. I 19 mean, that's exactly why they've sent it. They've got 20 a position, and they want you to know it. 21 Judges just aren't influenced by stuff like 22 this. If we were, we couldn't ever sit on a case. We 23 get it all the time. If somebody knew that if we got 24 something we couldn't sit on a case, I guarantee you 25 the other side that didn't want us would be sending us KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 905 Volume 7, 1 stuff to get us off the case. So it isn't that big a 2 deal. But, yes, would both sides please instruct 3 their -- 4 MR. FUGATE: Gallery? 5 THE COURT: -- their folks that are -- their 6 supporters, for lack of a better word, that please 7 don't send me stuff. I mean, all I have to do is -- I 8 will file it in the court file, I will hand it out to 9 the lawyers, or I will throw it in the wastebasket, 10 depending on what the lawyers tell me they want me to 11 do in this case. And if they don't want that to 12 happen, then they really ought not to send it. 13 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, just for the record, in 16 light of what Mr. Moxon said, I was never asked about 17 anything. I've never told anybody to send anything to 18 the Court. And if anybody did ask me, I would tell 19 them absolutely under no uncertain circumstances -- 20 THE COURT: I have no doubt that that is 21 true, and I have no doubt that that is true for all 22 the lawyers that appear in front of me on this case. 23 But I'm just telling you that sometimes people -- 24 obviously, somebody in court didn't know that. 25 And so do I think they were trying to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 906 Volume 7, 1 influence me? Maybe. I don't know what this means, 2 to tell you the truth. "Five years ago, Bob Minton 3 set out to destroy Scientology by funding the Lisa 4 McPherson case. Today he's made a pact with 5 Scientology to destroy the Lisa McPherson case to save 6 his own skin." 7 I mean, that kind of stuff isn't influential 8 to a judge. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, this is 10 raging on the Internet. 11 THE COURT: Is it? 12 THE WITNESS: This whole attitude, this 13 fervent belief that Mr. Minton and I are both under 14 some sort of threat of death by Scientology and that 15 that's why we're doing this. 16 And there are a lot of people who think they 17 are really doing us a big favor by posting things like 18 that on the Internet and, you know, saying that we're 19 lying and this whole thing. I mean, the feelings are 20 very, very high. You know, people are just raging 21 about this whole issue. 22 And what you're reading there is just one 23 example of literally hundreds of postings about 24 Mr. Minton and myself and our testimony and -- 25 THE COURT: Yes, there's some stuff in KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 907 Volume 7, 1 these -- I'll give these to you that are fairly long. 2 There's vulgar stuff here. 3 THE WITNESS: Very vulgar. 4 THE COURT: Very vulgar stuff. As I said, 5 if anybody thinks that's influential, it really isn't. 6 But that -- I mean, I know you all wouldn't 7 occasion this stuff to be sent to the Court. People 8 that think I need to know things, I really don't. I 9 need to know what comes from a lawyer. 10 So the best you can, pass that onto anybody 11 that might -- and the rest of it I'll just deal with 12 at the time. 13 Okay. 14 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry that we had to have 16 that interruption, but . . . 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Ms. Brooks, I believe we left off at Exhibit 15L, 19 and I'm going to hand you what I've marked as Exhibit 15M. 20 This is the declaration of Stacy Brooks regarding records 21 retention and destruction. And it looks to be an exhibit 22 from -- it says Witness 1SB9-7-01LC, and it looks like 23 you've signed this under penalty of perjury. And that 24 looks to me to be a declaration that you prepared and 25 signed, or at least signed, about the policies of the Lisa KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 908 Volume 7, 1 McPherson Trust and document destruction. 2 What does that -- what does that paragraph say? 3 If you can, read the highlighted paragraph to the Court. 4 A "From its -- from its inception, the records 5 retention policy of the Lisa McPherson Trust has been to 6 minimize the number of records retained. Under that --" 7 THE COURT: Go slow. Remember my court 8 reporter here is doing realtime. 9 THE WITNESS: Sorry, sorry. 10 Did you get what I just said? 11 THE REPORTER: Yes. 12 A Okay. "Under that policy, all records, 13 correspondence -- correspondence, e-mails and Internet 14 postings are deleted or destroyed as soon as is practical 15 after their use has terminated, with the exception of 16 minimal archival records which are stored in digital form. 17 It is not possible to identify the records which have been 18 purged pursuant to the aforesaid policy. All records have 19 been dealt with according to that policy." 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q All right. Was that true? 22 A Yes. There -- that policy did exist. And, 23 unfortunately, everybody didn't adhere to the policy. 24 There were things that were still in the office. And the 25 special master has now gone through the whole office and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 909 Volume 7, 1 found -- I don't know what he's found, whatever he's found. 2 And also, he has the hard drives so he can -- you know, I'm 3 not really sure what there is to find, but I wouldn't be 4 surprised if there were documents and things on the 5 computers that he found that would be -- that would have 6 been responsive to whatever subpoena that was in response 7 to. 8 Q Okay. Now, the next paragraph is not 9 highlighted. And this one says: "No archival records 10 include statements of any person having knowledge of the 11 facts of the complaint or counterclaim in the case of 12 McPherson vs. Scientology. No archival records contain any 13 statement or information concerning the subject matters of 14 the aforesaid action. No archival records contain any 15 reference to any person designated as a witness in that 16 case or to any person who has knowledge of the facts of the 17 case, except a digital copy of Teresa Summers' privilege 18 records concerning" -- Marcus Quirino? Is that how you 19 pronounce his name? 20 A I would imagine. 21 Q Okay. "Are stored there, as are digital 22 duplicates of the statements of the Woodcraft family which 23 appear on the Lisa McPherson Trust Web site. Only Teresa 24 Summers has access to the records concerning Marcus 25 Quirino." KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 910 Volume 7, 1 That wasn't highlighted at all. So all that I 2 would assume would be true in your declaration. Isn't that 3 correct? 4 A I think you have the wrong idea here. The things 5 that are highlighted aren't highlighted because they're 6 false. And I think we've gone through quite a number of 7 these highlighted excerpts -- 8 Q Okay. 9 A -- that I have testified clearly were true. 10 Q Okay. 11 A So I think you're misstating my testimony or 12 misstating something -- 13 Q Well -- 14 A -- to say that everything that's highlighted is a 15 lie. 16 Q That wasn't my statement. 17 A Well, that is I think what you said. 18 Q No. You testified that some of the things were 19 highlighted that were true. And I think at one of the 20 meetings certain things came up, and you had said, well, 21 not all of that was false. I think in testifying about 22 Mr. Rinder's discussions with you, he apparently brought 23 some things up. And you said, "Well, not everything you've 24 brought to my attention did I testify to falsely." 25 So I took it to be your description of these KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 911 Volume 7, 1 documents that these highlighted sections were sections 2 that were brought to your attention so that you could set 3 the record straight. And you don't know who highlighted 4 them, so I'm trying to find exactly what it is -- 5 A That's incorrect. 6 Q What's incorrect? 7 A If that's your understanding of what I've been 8 saying, your understanding is incorrect. 9 Q Correct me. What is it exactly that was 10 highlighted in these documents? 11 A Someone's idea about things that I might need to 12 correct. It didn't -- it certainly didn't mean that I 13 might not need to correct something else. 14 Q Okay. 15 A And I certainly didn't rely on only these 16 excerpts to determine what I needed to do. 17 Q Okay. 18 A I think it's important for you to understand that 19 when we finally went -- 20 And, your Honor, this is what -- this is what 21 these people that are making these postings on the Internet 22 cannot even wildly imagine could be true, what I'm about to 23 say. 24 By the time we went and spoke to Mr. Rinder on 25 Saturday, April 6th, we felt that Mr. Dandar had put us in KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 912 Volume 7, 1 a very, very, very dangerous position. And we -- we felt 2 that we could no longer trust him at all. And we were 3 confronted with a landscape of players that was so surreal, 4 because on one side, we had people that we had been working 5 with that we now no longer trusted at all. And on the 6 other hand -- and on the other side, we had Scientology, 7 that we had spent years demonizing and not trusting at all. 8 And -- and suddenly we were in a position 9 where -- and Mr. Minton will probably testify about this, 10 but I will say for myself that I had the impression from 11 Mr. Minton that he found himself in a position where the 12 world had turned upside-down, and the person that he could 13 think of that he might possibly be able to trust in the 14 world was Mike Rinder. 15 And so when we went and spoke to him and when we 16 were working with him, this was not a matter of Mike Rinder 17 directing us in any way. I need for you to understand 18 that. You won't believe me. All these people that are 19 posting these things don't believe this. But all of these 20 people that are posting these things don't believe what 21 Mr. Dandar has been doing either. And if they believed 22 what Mr. Dandar has been doing, then they would understand 23 perhaps why we found ourselves in such a surreal situation. 24 And we went to Mr. Rinder, and he was extremely 25 uncomfortable about talking to us. He was not quite sure KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 913 Volume 7, 1 what to do. But we said to him -- and this is not a 2 quote -- but basically what we said -- and Mr. Minton. 3 Basically what Mr. Minton said was: 4 I need help, and I'm in -- I'm in a situation 5 where I'm facing another contempt hearing in three days. I 6 just escaped from a contempt hearing by the skin of my 7 teeth. Judge Schaeffer was going to put me in jail, and 8 I'm facing another judge that's even madder at me than 9 Judge Schaeffer has ever been. And I don't know what to 10 do, and I need help. And how do I get myself out of this 11 situation? You know, I need to set the record straight. 12 And he had by now spoken to his attorney, 13 Mr. Howie, and Mr. Jonas had spoken to him about this case, 14 and I'm not -- I'm not getting into any substantive 15 description of what was said between him and his attorneys. 16 But I can tell you this, that -- that he felt that there 17 was nowhere else to turn for help and that Mr. Dandar was 18 willing to -- and Mr. Dandar had said this many times -- 19 that Mr. Dandar was willing to let Mr. Minton go to jail 20 for the sake of this lawsuit. 21 And I was not in any way willing to let 22 Mr. Minton go to jail for the sake of this lawsuit. And I 23 don't think Mr. Dandar should have been willing to after 24 what Mr. Minton did to try to help the family. And -- and 25 Mr. Minton -- and again, he may testify differently -- but KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 914 Volume 7, 1 it was my feeling that Mr. Minton had gotten to the point 2 where if there was anybody in the world that he might be 3 able to trust to be -- to be -- to help him get out of the 4 situation that he felt Mr. Dandar had put him in, it would 5 be Mr. Rinder. 6 And I've got to tell you that that was the truth, 7 because we sat down with Mr. Rinder, and he was nothing but 8 courteous. He was nothing but -- as far as I know, 9 completely ethical about what would be acceptable in such a 10 situation for Judge Schaeffer or for Judge Baird. He was 11 very, I think, meticulous about that. 12 But he was willing to provide the documents that 13 we were asking for. We explained to him. He said, "Why 14 are you asking me?" 15 We said: "Who else are we suppose to ask? We 16 can't ask Mr. Dandar. That's for sure. We can't ask 17 Mr. Merrett. We can't even find him. You know, we've got 18 nobody on our side to help us get out of this mess. You 19 know, will you please help us?" 20 And that's what he did. So when you're talking 21 about this -- I understand that you need to impeach my 22 testimony, but you need to be straight on what exactly 23 happened here and what your partner's role in this was. 24 Q That's all I'm asking. 25 A Well, I -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 915 Volume 7, 1 Q I just want to find out -- 2 A -- want to clarify for you. 3 Q I appreciate that. 4 Okay. So you've gone over that and you've gone 5 over your declaration which we had as Exhibit M. 6 Exhibit N is a copy of the video -- or, 7 transcript of the videotaped deposition of Teresa Summers 8 of October 16th, 2001, consisting of page 1, page 52, and a 9 signature page. And apparently all this is, is asking 10 Ms. Summers about your document retrieval policies or -- 11 A Right. And she said no, we don't have them. 12 Q All right. And Exhibit O is a transcript of the 13 video deposition of Robert Peterson -- 14 A And he said no, we don't have one. 15 Q Fair enough. That's page 81, and he says no, you 16 don't have one. 17 Then there's the videotaped deposition of David 18 Cecere, Exhibit 15P. That's the cover page, 67, page 68, 19 and page 92, which appears to be the signature page. And 20 he asked about -- he was asked about any policy at LMT 21 concerning deleting Internet messages and a written policy. 22 He answered no. 23 Any orders to people that they must delete their 24 messages? 25 He answered no. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 916 Volume 7, 1 And he was asked if there was any policy about 2 shredding documents, and he answered no. 3 A Okay. Well, I think that if these people would 4 have been asked the question, "Have you ever received from 5 Grady Ward instructions on what to do about your documents 6 and your electronic documents, they would have answered 7 differently. Their understanding of what a policy is was 8 different from mine. 9 Q Okay. And Exhibit Q looks to be an order signed 10 by Judge Moody, I believe, on May 15th, 2000, which I -- 11 apparently is the order that the Lisa McPherson Trust shall 12 produce within ten days a person most knowledgeable to 13 testify to matters addressed in the court's ruling, et 14 cetera, and shall produce unedited videotapes in the 15 possession, custody, or control of the Lisa McPherson 16 Trust. And I think that one speaks for itself. 17 THE COURT: What are you doing? I mean, 18 Counsel -- 19 MR. LIROT: I'm just going -- Judge, I'm 20 just trying to go through all these documents. It 21 will make sense when I get to the end. 22 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Next is the May 18th, 2000 videotaped deposition 25 I believe of the Lisa McPherson Trust, which I assume to be KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 917 Volume 7, 1 you. And this is Sub Exhibit R, May 18th. And this again 2 is obviously asking you again questions about all of these 3 videos and tapes and I guess the hard drives. This will 4 speak for itself. Is there anything else in that document 5 that comes to your attention? 6 MR. WEINBERG: I think that's Mr. Minton as 7 the representative, although I'm not positive. 8 THE WITNESS: Let me -- I think I'll be able 9 to recognize it pretty quickly. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Sorry. 11 THE COURT: It's all right. 12 THE WITNESS: That's Mr. Minton. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Okay. So did you go through the highlighted 15 sections of this exhibit? 16 A That's Mr. Minton's testimony. 17 Q All right. Well, apparently this was part of the 18 packet provided to you, so we'll leave it in there. Did 19 you review it to make sure that there was anything you were 20 concerned about? 21 A If it was provided to me, I think it was probably 22 done in error. 23 Q Fair enough. 24 A And when -- you know, I wasn't -- I wasn't 25 interested in recanting Mr. Minton's testimony. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 918 Volume 7, 1 Q Fair enough. Okay. The next one is 15S, it was 2 the order regarding videotapes of the Lisa McPherson Trust. 3 And apparently this is also an order signed by Judge Moody 4 on July 18th of 2000, ordering the production of any 5 unedited videos in the possession, custody, control of the 6 Lisa McPherson Trust of statements of any person presently 7 identified as a witness in this case. And it says, 8 "Mr. Minton shall further file a sworn statement that LMT, 9 Inc., searched their video files as to the entire witness 10 list of the parties and produced all segments of 11 statements --" 12 THE COURT: Counsel, slow down. I just know 13 that my court reporter is going crazy down there. 14 Slow down. We all do that when we can read. We read 15 real fast, but she's -- 16 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. 17 THE COURT: Especially when she's doing 18 realtime. 19 MR. LIROT: Balancing these competing 20 interests, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q And I'll pick it up at the beginning of page 2, 24 "search their video files as to the entire witness list of 25 the parties and produce all segments of statements dealing KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 919 Volume 7, 1 with Lisa McPherson, the Lisa McPherson case, the 2 defendants, and Scientology." 3 What was the significance of that order being 4 attached to the packet delivered to you? 5 A Well, this was again having to do with whether or 6 not my compliance with the discovery had been, whatever you 7 call it, false or -- 8 Q Okay. Exhibit T is an order compelling document 9 production of Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc. It's signed by 10 Judge Quesada, apparently on November 20th of 2000. And 11 that looks to be pretty much identical to Judge Moody's 12 statement. 13 A Okay. 14 Q So that, again, your testimony would be that 15 that's attached -- 16 THE COURT: Whoa. You don't know that 17 that's identical or not. It's a different order. It 18 may or may not be identical. I don't know if it is or 19 it isn't. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, it has to do 21 with videotapes and documents. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: So that's probably why it 24 would have been included. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 920 Volume 7, 1 Q Okay. And then Exhibit 15V, this appears to be 2 excerpts of your deposition, Ms. Brooks, of August 15th, 3 2001. And it has page 1 and then pages 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 4 124, 125, 127, 128, 129 -- 5 THE COURT: How many pages are there? 6 MR. LIROT: -- 130 -- 7 There's just a couple more, Judge. 8 -- 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, and then 149 is 9 the signature page. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, while he's -- I 11 didn't hear a U. Did you call it V or U? 12 MR. LIROT: This is U. Did I call it V? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, you called it V on the 14 record. So it's U. 15 MR. LIROT: Can't even read my own 16 handwriting. I apologize. 17 A So what is your -- 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q And then the questions in that deposition also 20 deal with documents, videotapes, hard drives, and those 21 types of issues, correct? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want her to go through 23 all the papers? 24 MR. LIROT: She can. 25 A Do -- you want me to do what? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 921 Volume 7, 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Why don't you just take a look at that document 3 and make sure that you're aware of what it was that they 4 were providing that document for you to be aware of when 5 you asked for these documents. 6 A Okay. 7 Q All right. Would you agree that that deposition 8 testimony all centers on documents, Mr. Bunker's use of the 9 videotapes, and those issues? 10 A Well, it centers on the videotapes. 11 Q Okay. 12 THE COURT: Again, these are these 13 videotapes, and we don't even know what they are? 14 MR. LIROT: Apparently so, Judge. 15 THE WITNESS: This is unedited videotape 16 that had been ordered. 17 EXAMINATION 18 BY THE COURT: 19 Q Of maybe some pickets or -- 20 A Yes. Well, it hadn't been clarified. But 21 basically what happened was we were being very -- whatever, 22 recalcitrant about turning over anything. 23 Q That is true. 24 A And so -- 25 Q Like I said, I went through order after order KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 922 Volume 7, 1 after order. 2 A Yes. And so what finally Scientology said was, 3 "Look, we want -- just make them turn over the unedited 4 videotape," because -- you know, so that they -- I would 5 assume so that they could see what all there was and we 6 could stop -- and they could stop us from, you know, 7 saying, "Well, we only have edited stuff," blah, blah, 8 blah. 9 So then they made a request to the judge for the 10 unedited, raw footage so that they could look for 11 themselves. I think that's why they did it. 12 Q Well, what did it have to do with the Lisa 13 McPherson wrongful death case? 14 A Well, your Honor, I don't think it had much to do 15 with it, but -- but I never went through all the raw 16 footage, so I couldn't tell you that for sure. And I think 17 Scientology wanted to go through all the raw footage to see 18 if it did. 19 Q Okay. 20 A But that's the best of my understanding. 21 Q Were somehow some of these tapes taken and edited 22 for certain other things -- 23 A Yes. 24 Q -- is that it? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 923 Volume 7, 1 Q What were they used for? 2 A Well, for example, there were some videotapes 3 that were put up on our Web site that were -- maybe it was 4 an inner deal with someone. Or there were a couple of 5 videos that Mr. Bunker edited that one of them was sort of 6 a behind-the-scenes sort of a -- what do you call that 7 word, candid -- a candid video of me and Mr. Minton and 8 Mr. Prince and a number of other people just sitting around 9 and talking about various aspects of Scientology, that kind 10 of thing. And, you know, they wanted to see what else had 11 been said that he hadn't put in the edited version, I 12 think. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q I guess the last thing in your packet was a 17 declaration of Michael Rinder, which was apparently signed 18 by Mr. Rinder or -- I don't know, it was signed by somebody 19 on October 24th, 1994. Is this the -- is this the 20 declaration -- and I guess you had a chance to review this, 21 and I'll hand it to you. 22 And this is Sub Exhibit V. Is that the 23 declaration that Mr. Rinder provided that inspired you to 24 write the responsive declaration of December 12th, 1994, 25 that we've already given to the Court? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 924 Volume 7, 1 A Okay. First of all, I don't think that this was 2 part of the package that I was given. I don't remember 3 being given this. 4 Q Okay. Well, it was given to me as -- 5 A Okay. 6 Q -- part of what was given to you. So -- I have 7 no idea. So if it wasn't, please tell me that. 8 A Well, I don't believe it was. I don't remember 9 having this turned over to me as -- 10 THE COURT: Well, assuming -- whether it was 11 or it wasn't, is that the -- I mean, your declaration 12 was in response, obviously, to a declaration of 13 Mr. Rinder. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. This is -- 15 THE COURT: And you've already testified 16 about that -- 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: -- and you indicated, where it 19 may be slanted in some regards, it was true. And your 20 declaration was saying, now, Mr. Rinder's declaration 21 was not true. 22 THE WITNESS: Right. 23 THE COURT: In part, that was what your 24 declaration was saying. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. This is the declaration KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 925 Volume 7, 1 that I was responding to. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Okay. Why don't you read paragraph 12 to that 4 declaration, whether you got it or not, since you've 5 already seen it. 6 A "Both of the Youngs readily agree that they could 7 easily set the record --" 8 THE COURT: Slow down for me. 9 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 10 A "Both of the Youngs readily agree that they could 11 easily set the record straight by writing new declarations 12 which would clarify the statements they had made 13 previously. Vaughn said that he did not want to write 14 anything that would be a direct contradiction to what he 15 had written earlier, but this was simply a matter of 16 interpreting things differently. He said he intended to 17 make his career as a writer and would need credibility in 18 order to obtain future jobs so wanted to do this properly." 19 Q Okay. And you don't remember if that was 20 provided to you or not in order to prepare these 21 affidavits? 22 A In fact, I -- in fact, I remember that it wasn't. 23 Q Okay. Fair enough. Now, since we've had an 24 opportunity to take a look at what was provided to you, I 25 think your testimony was that you had many meetings between KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 926 Volume 7, 1 April 9th and the 15th. And then subsequent to April 15th, 2 did you have any additional meetings with members of the 3 Church or their counsel relative to preparing the 4 affidavits that you filed in this case? 5 A I believe so. 6 Q Okay. Can you tell me when those may have been 7 after the 15th? 8 A Well, it would have been sometime after the 15th 9 and before the 29th, which was when I signed my -- 10 Q Okay. 11 A -- affidavit. I think Mr. Minton signed his 12 several days earlier. 13 Q Okay. Were there a couple of days after you were 14 given these materials to digest, or did you meet the very 15 next day on April 16th? Do you remember that? 16 A I don't recall. I believe I met with my attorney 17 the next day. 18 Q Okay. And then after having received these 19 documents, you prepared I believe -- and I know we've 20 already testified to this -- you prepared an affidavit 21 of -- affidavit recanting testimony of Stacy Brooks, which 22 apparently you signed on -- 23 A April 17th. 24 Q -- April 17th. So you had these documents, and 25 you had numerous meetings between the 9th and the 15th. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 927 Volume 7, 1 And then on the 17th, you provided -- 2 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. I just 3 object to "numerous meetings." I think she's 4 identified the meetings in past testimony. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. However many she 6 said. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q You had some meetings between the 9th and the 9 15th, and then you had some meetings after the 15th. And 10 then on the 17th, you filed your affidavit. Correct? 11 A I believe I said that on the 16th I met with my 12 attorney. 13 Q All right. And then you filed your affidavit. 14 Now, after this affidavit was filed, did you have any other 15 meetings to make sure that the affidavit was appropriate 16 for this global settlement that you were trying to 17 obtain -- 18 A No. 19 Q -- with the Church of Scientology? 20 A No. 21 THE COURT: The date of the 17th is the date 22 that this affidavit was signed, actually. I'm guilty 23 of the same thing. It's filed. This is a notice of 24 filing. It's signed by Mr. McGowan. That was 25 included. And Lord knows whether it was actually KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 928 Volume 7, 1 filed then or whether it was filed on the 19th. That 2 depends on when the clerk stamped it in. So -- but 3 we're talking about when she signed it on the 17th, 4 right? 5 MR. LIROT: That's correct, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Did -- after this was filed, did you have any 9 additional meetings? Did you send this affidavit to the 10 Church for approval? 11 A No. 12 Q Well, then why did you -- why did you have to 13 file the second affidavit? 14 A Because I wanted to. 15 Q All right. Well, you wanted to set the record 16 straight, and you had many meetings with -- whatever number 17 you testified to. And then you had a meeting with your 18 counsel, and then you filed one affidavit. So out of the 19 blue, you decided to file a second affidavit, which -- 20 A I didn't -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- say it was out of the blue at all. 23 Q All right. 24 A In fact, it wasn't out of the blue at all. 25 Q Well, why did you file the one and then file a KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 929 Volume 7, 1 second affidavit after that? 2 A Well, as I recall, the first affidavit Mr. Howie 3 and Mr. McGowan both felt that we needed to get a 4 recantation -- a recantation affidavit filed with both 5 Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird. And I believe that at 6 that time there was the possibility -- I don't remember 7 what the -- I believe that at that time there was some 8 question about what was going to go forward, whether Judge 9 Schaeffer -- whether we were going to be beginning a 10 hearing before Judge Schaeffer or beginning one before -- 11 or continuing one before Judge Baird. 12 But I think there was some question about what 13 was going to be happening next, and our attorneys felt that 14 it was important to let the courts see and know that we 15 were trying to cooperate with the court and that we were 16 acting in good faith and working with our attorneys to 17 correct our testimony. 18 Q Couldn't you just have been called as a witness? 19 THE COURT: Counselor, let's not be naive 20 here. I know what their lawyers were thinking. The 21 lawyers were thinking that somebody might move before 22 they moved, in which case they wouldn't recant; it 23 would be too late. They would be charged with 24 perjury, a third-degree felony. I suspect; I don't 25 know that. But that's, if I were a lawyer, what I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 930 Volume 7, 1 would be thinking. We'd better get something in 2 there. 3 THE WITNESS: I believe that's basically 4 correct. 5 THE COURT: Yes. They said we need to just 6 get something filed, and then we'll go back and 7 work -- maybe I'm putting words in your mouth. But 8 that's what good criminal defense lawyers do. I guess 9 maybe these civil lawyers know the same -- pretty 10 smart too. 11 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q And -- 14 THE COURT: Maybe they called a criminal 15 lawyer. I don't know. But the deal is you've got to 16 get going before somebody comes after you. For all 17 they knew Mr. McCabe might come up pounding or I might 18 start some proceeding, in which case it's too late. 19 You can't recant. 20 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. Now -- 21 THE COURT: Right? Mr. Fugate, you're a 22 criminal lawyer. Isn't that right? 23 MR. FUGATE: Well, that's right, and that's 24 what I understand was happening, so . . . 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 931 Volume 7, 1 Q Now, just to go back to all the materials now, 2 most of those materials -- 3 THE COURT: By the way, I'm not suggesting 4 you can't explore the fact, and maybe it's true, that 5 what you're suggesting I guess is if somebody said, 6 "This isn't good enough, you've got to write a better 7 one, we want you to write a better one," not 8 suggesting you can't explore that. But I certainly 9 know, and you would know, why the lawyers would want 10 it filed as quickly as possible. 11 MR. LIROT: I understand, your Honor. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Look at those -- most of the documents that you 14 were provided just don't have anything to do with 15 Mr. Dandar, do they? I mean, if you look at exhibits -- 16 from Exhibit K, I guess, is where they talk about the 17 Merrett files, documents of destruction, the videotapes. 18 Mr. Dandar had no idea what was on any of those videos, did 19 he? 20 A Yes. 21 Q He did? 22 A As far as I knew, he did. 23 Q How would he know? 24 A Well, he was there for some of it. He was on 25 some of the videotape -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 932 Volume 7, 1 Q Okay. Well -- 2 A -- for example. 3 Q All right. What difference would that make to 4 this wrongful death case? 5 A I -- are you asking me what was in his mind? I 6 don't know what was in his mind. 7 Q If Mr. Dandar appears in public at a vigil or 8 anything else that he might be on, what difference would 9 that have in the wrongful death case? 10 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 11 testimony again. That's not been established in the 12 record that that's what the videos are of. 13 THE COURT: Assuming that's what's on the 14 video I guess is what he's saying. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, I can answer that. 16 THE COURT: It might annoy the lawyer -- it 17 might annoy the judge if the lawyer in the case was 18 out involved in what might perceived as a picket. 19 THE WITNESS: Exactly, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: But it was too late, because the 21 judge had already seen pictures. 22 THE WITNESS: But Mr. Dandar didn't want it 23 to go any further. He certainly didn't want to have 24 the courts provided with any further footage of him 25 being involved, because -- I think this has been KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 933 Volume 7, 1 covered pretty extensively from other aspects of this 2 situation. But there came a point in time where -- 3 which was towards the end of -- which really began in 4 earnest towards the end of 2000 where -- where 5 Mr. Dandar wanted to do everything possible to make it 6 appear that there was no connection between Mr. Minton 7 and the case, the LMT and the case, any of us and him. 8 He was trying to distance himself from all of us as 9 much as he possibly could. He didn't want there to be 10 any connection. He didn't want the courts to see that 11 there was any kind of connection whatsoever. 12 So, you know, obviously being on a videotape 13 with all of us unsavory characters, as he came to 14 feel, would not be good for him or his case. 15 Q How -- how many videotapes are we talking about 16 in total? 17 MR. FUGATE: In the LMT or Mr. Dandar's? 18 A I believe there's several -- I believe there's -- 19 maybe several hundred. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Okay. How many of those do you know Mr. Dandar 22 was on? 23 A Oh. Maybe 15 or 20, maybe 25. 24 Q Okay. And how about the hard drives? Is there 25 any way Mr. Dandar would know what you guys at the LMT had KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 934 Volume 7, 1 on your hard drives on your computer? 2 A Only if there was any e-mail from him or anything 3 like that. Again, the issue for Mr. Dandar was only to be 4 separate from us and only to distance himself from us. It 5 was -- it would have been the same situation in any -- in 6 any of these things. 7 Q Didn't he suggest that you guys should just turn 8 over all of this stuff? 9 A No. I don't remember that. 10 Q Well, he wasn't around when Mr. Merrett told you 11 to leave the stuff in the hall, was he? 12 A No, he wasn't there that day. 13 Q And as far as all the documents and whatever else 14 disappeared, you have no -- you have no independent 15 knowledge if any of this stuff went to Mr. Dandar, do you? 16 A What? 17 Q Well, apparently there's a lot of things missing 18 here that apparently Mr. Merrett has. You don't have any 19 knowledge that Mr. Dandar has any of that material, do you? 20 A No. 21 THE COURT: I don't even know that she said 22 Mr. Merrett had it. Her testimony, I thought, was 23 that Mr. Merrett said -- maybe -- maybe I read this -- 24 "Leave it in the hallway," and then it was gone. So I 25 don't know that Mr. Merrett has it. I suspect KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 935 Volume 7, 1 Mr. Merrett is going to tell us he doesn't. Now the 2 witness thinks Mr. Merrett will tell us he does. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, I can see your point. 4 THE COURT: Good. 5 MR. LIROT: Okay. 6 THE COURT: He'll want to appear in front of 7 me by phone. I can see why. I mean, you can't as a 8 lawyer tell your client that's been ordered to bring 9 something to -- by a judge to bring something, to 10 leave it out in the hallway and it'll be gone, you 11 won't have to worry about it. That would cause a 12 lawyer to be in serious trouble. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I can only 14 tell you that it's a very good experience for me to be 15 represented by Mr. McGowan. 16 THE COURT: Well, good. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, as far as the -- was it Mr. Dandar that 19 helped you contact Mr. McGowan? Was he the introduction 20 between and you Mr. McGowan? 21 A Yes, originally when he wanted Mr. McGowan to 22 take on Jesse Prince's lawsuit against Scientology. 23 Q Okay. 24 THE COURT: Oh, my Lord, is there another 25 suit? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 936 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Good. I hope it's not in my 3 court. 4 THE WITNESS: Mr. McGowan didn't take it. 5 THE COURT: No offense, guys, but one is 6 just all one judge can handle. My office wouldn't 7 handle any more than one. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Now, we've gone through the documents, and 10 apparently you're familiar with what it was that you wanted 11 to say in these affidavits. Why do we have so many 12 meetings? 13 A There was a lot to talk about. 14 Q Okay. And were you being told what to put in 15 your affidavit? 16 A No. 17 Q Well, why is there so much to talk about? 18 A We had a lot to say. A lot had happened. We 19 felt really bad about what had happened. We were very glad 20 to have somebody to talk to about it. We were working with 21 our attorneys. Mr. Howie had provided a written -- what do 22 you call it? You know, he had put it in writing that it 23 was okay for us to have these meetings, and we were keeping 24 him informed and Mr. McGowan that it was happening. And it 25 wasn't any secret -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 937 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Tell me about that. Mr. Howie 2 had put it in writing that it was okay for you all to 3 have these meetings. Tell me about that. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, the day of -- I believe 5 it was on the day of your hearing -- 6 THE COURT: The 5th -- 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, and I remember it 8 because -- because Mr. Jonas wasn't able to come down 9 for your hearing. He was going to go -- come down for 10 Judge Baird's hearing, but he wasn't able to come down 11 for yours. And so -- and Mr. Jonas at that time was 12 the only attorney who was involved in the -- well, he 13 was -- he was the attorney that had been there for the 14 March 28th to March 29th meeting. And so I believe 15 Mr. Minton had told Mr. Howie that he wanted to meet 16 with Mr. Rinder, and -- 17 THE COURT: Without a lawyer. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, and that Mr. Jonas 19 wasn't going to be there that weekend. And so I think 20 the reason for it was that Mr. Howie was basically, 21 you know, saying that that would be okay. And then 22 Mr. Howie was on the phone with Mr. Minton -- well, 23 several times over that weekend, as I recall as well. 24 I don't have a copy of that -- 25 THE COURT: Okay. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 938 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: -- but I believe that 2 happened. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Well, let me ask you again about this other stack 5 of documents that was apparently provided to you and 6 Mr. Minton when Mr. Prince was with you. You were at a 7 hotel either on the beach or somewhere in Clearwater? 8 A Actually, Mr. Lirot, I don't believe that any 9 documents ever arrived while Mr. Prince was there. I 10 believe that some documents arrived before he got there at 11 Mr. Minton's request -- 12 Q Okay. 13 A -- in preparation for Mr. Minton's speaking to 14 Mr. Prince. 15 Q What -- what documents were delivered to 16 Mr. Minton prior to Mr. Prince arriving in preparation for 17 Mr. Minton speaking to Mr. Prince? 18 A Mr. Minton was very concerned -- well, if I could 19 just back up briefly. Mr. Prince had told us that on the 20 day of Judge Baird's hearing on Tuesday, April 9th, he came 21 into the courtroom briefly and he wasn't -- he wasn't aware 22 of the agreement that Mr. Minton had made to recant his 23 testimony in return for a withdrawal of Scientology's 24 motion for contempt -- 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I'm all confused. I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 939 Volume 7, 1 thought this question had something to do with some 2 stack of documents. 3 THE WITNESS: It does. 4 THE COURT: You're going to get there for 5 me? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 A And Mr. Prince apparently came into the courtroom 11 and heard Mr. Minton testifying and thought that he was 12 about to be put in jail. And Mr. Prince told us later that 13 he was so upset about that that he took an overdose of 14 Vistaril and drank a fifth of vodka and tried to kill 15 himself. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Mr. Minton did or Mr. Prince did? 18 A Mr. Prince. And he told us this I believe on 19 Friday night when he came to see us at our hotel when we 20 were staying at the Adam's Mark on Clearwater Beach. 21 Q If Tuesday is the 9th, Thursday -- 22 A We didn't see him until Friday. 23 Q You saw him Friday the 13th? 24 A Yes. And I believe that was the first time we 25 had seen him since the hearing on Tuesday. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 940 Volume 7, 1 Q This is Friday the 12th, I'm sorry. 2 A Okay. And when we saw him on Friday, he was very 3 intoxicated, but we had dinner with him in the restaurant. 4 We had a good -- 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry, let me just talk to 6 you for just a minute. Naturally, I've seen these 7 affidavits flying back and forth. This is the only 8 time that you saw Mr. Prince between your hearing in 9 front of Judge Baird and this intoxicated episode, 10 just this one time? 11 THE WITNESS: No, no -- well, there were -- 12 there were -- there was another incident on Sunday, 13 after this Friday. 14 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: This is -- all right. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. And Sunday is what he's 18 asking me about, so I'm just trying to lead up to 19 that. 20 A But we had a good conversation on Friday night, 21 we -- Mr. Minton and I felt that we had. We felt that -- 22 well, Mr. Prince said that he was very happy that we 23 were -- that we had initiated settlement talks with 24 Scientology, that he really wanted to be a part of that 25 settlement, that -- that he didn't want to have anything KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 941 Volume 7, 1 more to do with this litigation, and he was -- what he was 2 saying that night -- and this is what he had said for 3 months prior to this too -- was that he wanted to work with 4 us to bring that about. And we told him that we were -- 5 well, actually, we didn't tell him that night. 6 Then on Sunday, we saw Mr. Prince again. Now -- 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Well, let me ask you -- 9 A This is where the documents came up. 10 Q Let me slow you down a little bit. So Friday 11 Mr. Prince comes up, and he tells you that he's so 12 disappointed with whatever happened, what he heard 13 Mr. Minton testify to in front of Judge Baird on the 9th, 14 that he left to go kill himself? Is that your testimony? 15 A He may have -- he may have told me that over the 16 telephone. 17 Q Okay. 18 A I believe we made reference to it on Friday, but 19 I believe he had already told us that. 20 Q All right. And your testimony was that -- 21 A And it wasn't that he was so disappointed. He 22 was frightened for Mr. Minton, is what he said to us. 23 Q He was frightened for Mr. Minton -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q -- or Mr. Prince was frightened he would go to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 942 Volume 7, 1 jail? 2 A What he -- the impression I got was that he was 3 frightened for Mr. Minton. 4 Q Okay. So Mr. Minton's recanting his earlier 5 testimony in the hearing in front of Judge Baird, and he 6 cares so much for Mr. Minton that he leaves in the middle 7 of the hearing, before the end of the hearing? 8 A Yes, he left before the middle. He didn't stay 9 very long. 10 Q And it depressed him to the point where he 11 subsequently made a phone call to you or communicated with 12 you in some fashion saying that "I was so depressed with 13 what I heard that I decided to take an overdose." I don't 14 know what you referred to, some pharmaceutical drug or 15 something like that? 16 A Yes. I believe it's an antianxiety medication, 17 if I'm not mistaken. 18 Q And he mixed that with a quart of vodka? A 19 fifth? I'm sorry. 20 A Well, what he said, I mean, his girlfriend has a 21 prescription for Vistaril. He said he took her Vistaril, 22 took enough pills that he thought that if he also drank it 23 with a fifth of vodka, it would kill him. That's what he 24 told me. 25 Q Okay. And that would have been that Tuesday, and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 943 Volume 7, 1 then did you hear from him between that Tuesday and the 2 Friday that he met with you at the hotel? 3 A I'm not sure I heard from him again until after 4 Wednesday, and I spoke to him on the phone. And that's 5 when he told me what had happened -- 6 Q Okay. 7 A -- and how upset he had been at what he thought 8 he was looking at. So I spent quite a bit of time with him 9 on the telephone explaining to him that he was mistaken 10 about that, that in fact Mr. Minton was -- was stepping 11 forward to correct his testimony in return for 12 Scientology's withdrawing their motion for contempt. 13 And when I spoke to Jesse about it on the phone 14 either Wednesday or Thursday -- I think it was Wednesday -- 15 he was very, very happy about that. He was very relieved 16 and -- or at least he acted like he was. 17 And then on Friday, as I said, we had a good talk 18 with him. He was a little -- he wasn't acting like 19 himself, we didn't feel. And he was -- he was obviously 20 either on some medication or had been drinking and seemed a 21 bit fragile. So we had a talk with him. We told him about 22 what we were doing. 23 As I said, he was very happy. Actually, what he 24 specifically said was, "Well, I'm really glad about what 25 you're doing, because I choose life." That was his KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 944 Volume 7, 1 statement, "I choose life." And what I understood him to 2 mean by that was he wanted his life back. He didn't want 3 to be involved in this litigation any longer. 4 And so -- so we were very hopeful about that. 5 Jesse was a very good friend of both of ours, and we 6 knew -- I was aware of the fact that Jesse had quite a bit 7 of false testimony, because I had sat in at least two of 8 his depositions, that I knew -- although I hadn't reviewed 9 his testimony, I knew from my memory that -- that Jesse had 10 some things that he needed to correct as well. 11 So Mr. Minton, I believe, asked for the hearing 12 before Judge Schaeffer where Judge Schaeffer had -- because 13 Mr. Dandar had told us about this -- where Judge Schaeffer 14 had -- I'm not sure exactly what she said, but the 15 impression we had from what Mr. Dandar had told us was that 16 Judge Schaeffer had said that Mr. Prince's credibility was 17 questionable because of his bias and that she didn't 18 believe that he was so afraid of Scientology that that was 19 how come he had withdrawn or -- anyway. 20 And then she had said -- well, at least what 21 Mr. Dandar had said was that Judge Schaeffer had said that 22 she couldn't imagine why Mr. Dandar would want Jesse Prince 23 as his expert, but if he did, she would certainly help him 24 with that in some way or whatever, and if she had to put 25 him in jail to keep him here for his testimony, she would. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 945 Volume 7, 1 Anyway, something like that. That's what Mr. Dandar had 2 said to Mr. Minton. 3 THE COURT: I remember. That's all 4 accurate, except I don't remember saying I would put 5 him in jail. But I think Mr. Dandar reflected what I 6 said pretty well. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, I'll tell you, your 8 Honor, we really had the feeling that you were going 9 to put all of us in jail. 10 THE COURT: Well, I found out where the six 11 years came from. That was about the first time I met 12 you all. And I was real annoyed because Mr. Minton 13 wasn't showing up for a deposition, and you all wanted 14 sanctions. And I said: You all don't know how I 15 play. This is how I play. I'm not going to find 16 somebody who could pay the money. You know, as far as 17 I'm concerned, we'll put him in jail and if he wants 18 to stay there for six years, it wouldn't matter to me. 19 THE WITNESS: There you go. I knew you said 20 that. 21 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Minton always appeared 22 at depositions, I guess, because nobody asked me to 23 put him in jail for that except for one unsworn 24 contempt. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 946 Volume 7, 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q See, I think you testified -- 3 THE COURT: I don't recall that he didn't 4 show up at a deposition. I recall other things. 5 MR. FUGATE: The deposition he didn't show 6 up to was in front of Judge Baird, I think is what -- 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, not in front of you. 9 THE COURT: Right. As I said, he must have 10 taken heed for that. 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, he did. He did. That's 12 why we're here. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q So -- 15 A So Mr. Minton asked -- I believe Mr. Rinder, I 16 assume it was Mr. Rinder -- if he could get a copy of that 17 transcript. And -- 18 Q This is all on Friday the 12th? 19 A No, no, no. This is Sunday. 20 Q Well -- 21 A This is Sunday, because Jesse was going to come 22 back over. Jesse had called and said that he wanted to 23 come over and see us on Sunday. And we were really glad, 24 you know, come over and have dinner or whatever. 25 Q So that's Sunday the 14th. Well, on the 13th he KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 947 Volume 7, 1 meets with you at the hotel? 2 A No, on Friday. 3 Q On Friday the 12th, correct. And he meets with 4 you. And were you in the restaurant at the time, or did 5 he -- 6 A Yes. 7 Q -- come up to your room? 8 A I believe at that -- on Friday -- I met them both 9 downstairs, as I recall. Actually, I may have been -- I 10 may have joined them -- I think I may have arrived at the 11 hotel and joined them downstairs, so I don't know -- 12 Q Okay. When you say that, was it Jesse and his 13 girlfriend and Mr. Minton? 14 A Unh-unh (negative). 15 Q Or just Jesse and Mr. Minton? 16 A Just Mr. Prince and Mr. Minton. 17 Q Okay. So they were already downstairs either in 18 the restaurant or someplace else, not in the room? 19 A Right, right. We met in the bar. They were just 20 waiting for me to go in to dinner. 21 Q Okay. And apparently this was -- Jesse is 22 already aware that Mr. Minton is taking a certain change of 23 position relative to the Church. And then -- 24 THE COURT: He knew that on the 9th when he 25 was in court. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 948 Volume 7, 1 MR. LIROT: Exactly, Judge. 2 THE WITNESS: He knew that before. 3 THE COURT: Well, he certainly knew it as of 4 that night. 5 THE WITNESS: For sure, but he had known it 6 for months, your Honor. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Well, how did he know about it for months? 9 A Well, not -- I should say for a couple of months. 10 Because he knew that we were initiating settlement. 11 Q How did he know? 12 A I had told him. I think Mr. Minton had also told 13 him. He was very excited. He was happy. He said great. 14 You know, he wanted to -- this is what he told us. He 15 wanted to be a music manager, he didn't want to do this 16 litigation anymore, he wanted his life back. And he said 17 many, many times to Mr. Minton that he was really glad that 18 this was happening. 19 Q When did you first start to talk to him about 20 this issue? 21 A Probably in -- somewhere in the middle of 2001. 22 Q So you're saying about June 2001, you were 23 already telling Mr. Prince that you had decided that you 24 were going to set the record straight and try to get 25 yourself extricated from all of this litigation? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 949 Volume 7, 1 A No. In at least August of 2001, I was telling 2 Mr. Prince that I thought the wrongful death case was badly 3 off the rails, that it was endangering Mr. Minton. I 4 didn't talk to him about why, but I told him -- I told him 5 that I wanted to contact Ms. Liebreich and -- 6 THE COURT: Ms. who? 7 THE WITNESS: Ms. Liebreich, the -- 8 THE COURT: Oh, yes, okay. Yes. 9 A So Mr. Prince was aware. And Mr. Prince was also 10 saying to me and to Mr. Minton as early as August 2001 that 11 he also didn't want anything to do with the wrongful death, 12 he didn't want anything to do with Ken Dandar, he was very 13 upset with Ken Dandar for the affidavit that Mr. Dandar had 14 Jesse sign after -- in order to -- because Mr. Dandar 15 wanted to file the severe sanctions motion. He was 16 extremely upset about what Mr. Dandar had done at that 17 time. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Okay. So at least he knows that you certainly 20 changed your position as of the middle of 2001 and now he 21 shows up and it's April -- April 9th, and he hears 22 Mr. Minton testifying and gets so depressed that he leaves. 23 Then on Friday, April 12th, he comes to the hotel, meets 24 Mr. Minton. You arrive. What was discussed then? 25 A Well, as I just said, we told him that we were -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 950 Volume 7, 1 we wanted to extricate ourselves from the situation that we 2 had gotten ourselves into. Jesse was very glad. He wanted 3 us to talk to him about it. We told him -- excuse me -- we 4 told him that -- and we were a little bit gentle about 5 this, but we told him that it was, you know -- that 6 settlement couldn't occur until the record was set 7 straight. 8 And I say we were a little bit gentle about this 9 because we felt that it had been -- well, it had been a 10 very, very difficult thing for Mr. Minton and myself to 11 come forward and basically put ourselves at the mercy of 12 these two courts in order to set the record straight. And 13 based on the difficulty that we had had -- 14 THE COURT: I'm sure your lawyers told you 15 that at least I as a judge, and I'm sure Judge Baird, 16 somebody is going to have to relay this information of 17 all these criminal accusations going back and forth to 18 the state attorney's office. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: That certainly must be done. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 22 A And we were not sure and I'm still not sure what 23 would become of us for having done this, but -- but we felt 24 that the alternative to coming forward and setting the 25 record straight was a whole lot worse. And so we felt that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 951 Volume 7, 1 we really didn't have a choice but to do what we were 2 doing. And so -- 3 Q Well -- and I guess my question would be then, 4 you told Jesse to meet you again on Sunday and that you 5 would have the statements made by Judge Schaeffer about his 6 credibility? What happened? 7 A No, Mr. Lirot, that's not what I said. 8 Q I don't know. I'm asking the question. You 9 haven't testified to that yet. 10 A Yes, I did. Yes, I did, but I'll say it again. 11 So we were -- as I was -- just to finish my last sentence, 12 we were a little bit gentle about all of this with 13 Mr. Prince because we knew or we had reason to believe that 14 it was going to be an even more difficult reversal, 15 basically, for him. 16 And so we were being a little bit gentle about 17 it, and plus the fact that he still seemed to be not fully 18 recovered from what seemed to have been a fairly serious 19 breakdown of some sort from what he had described on 20 Tuesday, and also what his girlfriend had described. 21 So -- 22 Q Well, who was paying Mr. Prince at this time? 23 A Mr. Minton. 24 Q Still paying him up through April 12th? 25 A April 4th -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 952 Volume 7, 1 Q April 4th. 2 A -- was the last check, and I actually wrote a 3 check to Dee, his girlfriend, for $588, I think, the day 4 of -- at testimony of -- or, the day of -- one of the days 5 before Judge Baird in his hearing. 6 Q Sometime before -- 7 A So that was even more recent. 8 Q -- the 9th? 9 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry? 10 THE WITNESS: I said so that was even more 11 recent. 12 MR. FUGATE: I object to the interruption, 13 because I didn't hear. 14 THE COURT: I didn't either. I'm sorry, 15 wait till -- I think she wasn't quite done. 16 A What I said was that payment to her was even more 17 recent to her than April 4th. So -- so we felt that it was 18 important for Mr. Prince to understand how the Court felt 19 about his credibility and that perhaps if he understood how 20 the Court viewed his testimony that it might be a good sort 21 of an introduction for us to be able to talk to him about 22 the process of recantation. And that was the reason 23 Mr. Minton wanted to have that transcript of Judge 24 Schaeffer's -- I believe it was March 8th -- 25 THE COURT: I don't know. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 953 Volume 7, 1 A -- hearing. 2 THE COURT: It was the hearing on the severe 3 sanctions, probably, that was heard. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, exactly. 5 A So what we had in mind was that -- because Jesse 6 had said that he wanted to come and see us. And we had 7 said that we wanted to see him, we were good friends, we 8 were glad that he wanted to see us. We suggested that we 9 have dinner together on Sunday. 10 And I believe that the package was delivered in 11 the afternoon when we were -- before Mr. Prince got there. 12 But in any case, that was the reason -- 13 THE COURT: Ah, we're back now, this is 14 where the question started, the package. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. 16 THE COURT: This is the package you got. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. LIROT: So -- 20 THE COURT: Don't just go on. I want to 21 hear about it now. So the documents came. 22 THE WITNESS: So the documents came. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 A And so that was what it was. It was -- it was 25 Judge Baird -- I mean, Judge Schaeffer saying these things KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 954 Volume 7, 1 about Mr. Prince. And -- 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Well, wait a minute, I'm truly confused here. 4 We're talking about -- 5 THE COURT: Oh, my God, I hope we're not 6 going to have it all repeated. 7 MR. LIROT: No, no, no. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q On Friday the 12th -- 10 THE WITNESS: I promise I won't. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Friday the 12th, you have no documents. So is 14 this Sunday that these documents are provided to you? 15 A Yes -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- the transcript of that hearing. 18 Q All right. Were there any other documents sent 19 over to Mr. Minton that he had that he pointed out to 20 Mr. Prince on Friday the 12th? 21 A Not that I know of. The -- 22 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, I object to that. 23 There's nothing in the record that documents were sent 24 over on the 12th. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 955 Volume 7, 1 MR. FUGATE: I think she's talking about 2 Sunday the 14th. 3 THE COURT: Right. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Okay. Let me ask you this. You got your 6 documents on the 15th from Mr. Fugate. When did Mr. Minton 7 get his records? Because I believe your testimony was he 8 got his records sometime before that. 9 A I believe that wasn't my testimony. I believe my 10 testimony was pretty clear, several times, that he -- very 11 many times -- that he got his documents the same day I got 12 mine from Mr. McGowan, when Mr. McGowan was with me. I was 13 given some documents, and Mr. Minton was given some 14 documents on that day. 15 The document that he was given or provided with 16 on Sunday the 14th had nothing to do with anything except 17 getting ready to try to talk to Jesse about what he was 18 going to have to do to recant. 19 Q So -- 20 A And -- 21 Q And who delivered these documents? 22 A I'm not sure. 23 Q Well, who did you ask to have them delivered to 24 you from? 25 A I believe he asked Mr. Rinder. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 956 Volume 7, 1 Q Okay. 2 A And I believe someone just left it at the desk. 3 But now we were at the Radisson Hotel. 4 Q Okay. 5 A And I believe somebody just left it at the desk. 6 But anyway, so Jesse came. 7 Q Is it safe to say somebody from the Church? 8 A I would assume. 9 Q You asked Mr. Rinder -- 10 A I would assume. 11 Q Either somebody from the Church or some courier 12 service brings you over some documents, but it's at the 13 behest of Mr. Rinder? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. So -- 16 THE COURT: At the behest of Mr. Rinder? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, at Mr. Minton's behest 18 of Mr. Rinder, who then must have behested someone 19 else. 20 MR. LIROT: It's a repeat behest. 21 THE COURT: Okay. I got it. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q All right. So did Mr. Minton pick these 24 documents up, or did he wait until Jesse got there and then 25 you all walked over to the desk and got them? Did he have KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 957 Volume 7, 1 them before Jesse arrived? 2 A As I recall, they were in the room. That's my 3 recollection. 4 Q Okay. So you're downstairs, you arrived, 5 Mr. Prince -- 6 A No, no, no. No. No, no, no, no. That was 7 Friday. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Okay. On Sunday, we had moved over to the 10 Radisson, and we were in Room 503. If you saw the posting 11 on the Internet that said where we were staying and our 12 room number, Jesse got it wrong. 13 THE COURT: He probably didn't go to the 14 Internet. I don't go to the Internet; he doesn't go 15 to the Internet. I guarantee you, probably most of 16 us -- probably nobody goes to the Internet. 17 A Well, Mr. Prince went back and informed 18 Mr. Dandar's people where we were staying and had it posted 19 on the Internet. 20 THE COURT: Well, I'm not going to attribute 21 that to Mr. Dandar. I think that there are some folks 22 here that are fairly -- what should we call them? I 23 don't know, whatever I would say. But anyway -- 24 MR. LIROT: Renegades. 25 THE COURT: Well, they're -- they're -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 958 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: Loose cannons. 2 THE COURT: Yes. And I don't know why 3 anybody would want to post Mr. -- I can't imagine why 4 a lawyer would want to post Mr. Minton's room number 5 for those people. 6 THE WITNESS: Nor could I. 7 THE COURT: So, now, some of the -- I mean, 8 there's some people that feel very -- I hate to use 9 the word "rabid." It's so bad. People who feel very 10 strongly -- 11 THE WITNESS: Fervent. 12 THE COURT: Fervent. You were one of them. 13 I mean, there are people that feel very fervent about 14 one side or the other, and so they say hateful things 15 about the other side. But I don't know that a lawyer 16 trying a case would necessarily want to let somebody, 17 a rabid -- a fervent person know where somebody else 18 is staying. 19 THE WITNESS: I think "rabid" is good. 20 THE COURT: Rabid. I guess somebody will 21 say that I -- I guess I can't be charged with what I 22 say in court. Fairly rabid people. They were 23 fairly -- as I said, I went back and reread some of 24 the things that Mr. Minton had said -- 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, that was rabid. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 959 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: -- on the Internet. 2 THE WITNESS: This -- 3 THE COURT: That's what I said. Whatever 4 this person sent me in the mail couldn't begin to 5 compare with some of the Internet postings, if that's 6 what you call them, that I read. 7 THE WITNESS: He regrets those, your Honor. 8 And so -- 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q So this is Sunday, and we're in Room 503. 11 A Right. And -- 12 Q And Jesse comes up to your room? 13 A Yes. I was in the room, and Mr. Minton was in 14 the room. And Jesse came up, and I -- we were waiting for 15 him, and -- excuse me -- I was very glad to have -- that he 16 was coming over. I was worried about him. 17 And I stuck my head out the door, and I saw him 18 coming from way down the hall -- or, not the hall, but the 19 balcony thing. And I went down to the end of the balcony 20 walkway and met him. And then we came -- we walked 21 together back to the room. 22 Q Was he alone, just him? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. 25 A And I was asking how he was doing and was he KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 960 Volume 7, 1 okay. He smelled like alcohol. He was very intoxicated. 2 But -- well, I just -- you know, Jesse -- well, in any 3 case, he was very intoxicated and still didn't seem like 4 himself, and he was talking a little bit slurry. 5 Q How was it left on Friday? "Jesse, come on back 6 on Sunday, and we'll have something for you to look at 7 so --" 8 A No, Mr. Lirot. You tried that before, and it's 9 not what happened. 10 Q What did happen? 11 A We had a good dinner with him on Friday night, 12 and we -- and he left. And then I tried to call him on 13 Saturday -- or, I mean, I did call him on Saturday. He 14 wasn't home. I called in the mid afternoon and spoke to 15 one of Dee's -- Dee is his girlfriend -- one of Dee's 16 children, who said that he and Dee were gone and they said 17 they weren't going to be back all day. 18 Well, then on Sunday, I -- as we were walking 19 back to the room, I said, you know, "What did you guys do 20 yesterday?" 21 And Jesse said: "Well, we were just around the 22 house all day. I was just working outside and stuff." 23 Well, then I knew he was lying because he hadn't 24 been there all day and his -- the little boy wouldn't have 25 any reason to lie. So it was my feeling when Jesse said KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 961 Volume 7, 1 that that he was lying and that there was something really 2 wrong. But, you know, I wasn't sure -- I just thought that 3 he was not in good shape. I didn't -- I didn't think that 4 he was, you know, doing -- well, in any case, so we went 5 back into our room, and we sat down and -- 6 THE COURT: Are we still on trying to get 7 what these documents -- 8 THE WITNESS: I'm there right now, your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm there. 12 A We sat down in the little living room part of the 13 room, and we started talking. And Jesse was seeming a 14 little bit -- just not himself. He was just not acting 15 like the person that we had known before. He was acting a 16 little bit surly, a little bit challenging. But again, he 17 was drunk, so we weren't sure why. 18 And so Bob, Mr. Minton, began to tell Mr. Prince 19 about Judge Schaeffer's -- about the hearing before Judge 20 Schaeffer. And right away, Mr. Prince got very defensive, 21 and unfortunately when he got very defensive, then 22 Mr. Minton got a little bit edgy. 23 And so then Mr. Minton said: Listen, Jesse, you 24 know, this judge is -- doesn't think you have any 25 credibility at all. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 962 Volume 7, 1 This isn't a quote, but this is basically what he 2 was saying: Judge Schaeffer doesn't think you have any 3 credibility to you at all, and, you know, you've got to 4 read this testimony about what she said. 5 And Mr. Prince said -- and by now he was really 6 acting surly. And he said: "Well, listen, Bobby, I don't 7 feel like sitting here reading it. Why don't you read 8 it -- why don't you tell me about it," like that. 9 And so then -- I mean, you have to understand 10 that these are two guys that have been really, really good 11 friends for a long time and have been through a lot 12 together. And so for -- for Mr. Prince to be talking to 13 Mr. Minton like that was really -- you know, just stunning 14 to Mr. Minton and to me. And so -- but, you know, 15 different people react in difference ways to being stunned. 16 I react by going, "Wait a minute, what's going on?" 17 Mr. Minton reacted by getting fairly angry. 18 And so he said: "Okay. Well, let me tell you 19 what she said. She said that you don't have any 20 credibility, that she doesn't think Ken ought to use you as 21 his expert, and that she's going to put you in jail," or 22 something like that. 23 Well, at that point, Mr. Prince stood up, and he 24 said -- I don't know, something like, you know, "Nobody 25 said I'm going to jail. What are you doing saying that I'm KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 963 Volume 7, 1 going to jail?" or, you know, something like this. 2 And I said, you know, "Look, you guys, why don't 3 we go downstairs and get something to eat," because I 4 figured food would be good. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Had Mr. Minton been drinking that day? 7 A No. No, not that I remember. 8 Q Does Mr. Minton drink? 9 A Yes, he does. 10 Q Sometimes to excess? 11 A He has. 12 THE COURT: Well, what does that have to do 13 with anything? 14 THE WITNESS: He's just trying to impeach 15 Mr. Minton. 16 THE COURT: Well, no, he's not trying to 17 impeach Mr. Minton. In fact, you know how I get at 18 the end of the day? Annoyed? That has nothing to do 19 with this, unless Mr. Minton is, A, intoxicated while 20 he's testifying or close thereto, or at the time of 21 the event. So we don't need to get into his drinking 22 habits. 23 A So we went downstairs at my suggestion. And by 24 now both Mr. Prince and Mr. Minton were very on edge. And 25 we sat down in the restaurant of the Radisson and -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 964 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Have you asked a question? I 2 mean, we're just going on and on and on here. Are you 3 going somewhere? What is it you want to know? What 4 happened next? Is that it? 5 MR. LIROT: Judge, I want to know what 6 documents were referred to, and obviously I haven't 7 had much success cutting the witness off without being 8 chastised. 9 THE COURT: Well, Lord, all you have to do 10 is ask me: "Not responsive, your Honor." 11 "Sustained. Stop. We don't need any more." 12 This is your show. Run it. I don't mean 13 "show." 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q What documents were in the hotel room on the 14th 16 that Mr. Minton showed Mr. Prince? 17 A As I said, the transcript of the testimony from 18 October 8th. 19 Q And that's it? 20 A I don't know of anything else. 21 Q Were there -- there wasn't a big, thick 11-inch 22 pile of documents that Mr. Minton pointed out to 23 Mr. Prince? 24 A I've got to tell you that's an hallucination, 25 Mr. Lirot. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 965 Volume 7, 1 Q Okay. Was there any mention of the Armstrong 2 lawsuit to Mr. Prince when he was in your room on the 14th? 3 A Not that I recall. 4 Q Was there ever any mention of any threats being 5 made to Mr. Minton as part of this overall -- 6 A No. 7 Q -- global settlement? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay. 10 THE COURT: This is on this last night, this 11 Sunday -- 12 MR. LIROT: This is Sunday the 14th. 13 THE COURT: -- that we're talking about? 14 Okay. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q So -- so as I understand it, you point out -- or, 17 Mr. Minton summarizes Judge Schaeffer's views or statements 18 regarding Mr. Prince. And things get a little heated, and 19 you suggest everybody go downstairs and get something to 20 eat? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Okay. What happened next? 23 A Okay. So then what happened was we sat down at a 24 table. There was a woman with a young child sitting at a 25 table next to us. Mr. Prince starts -- and by now, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 966 Volume 7, 1 Mr. Prince is having another drink, and now he's getting 2 very loud and very drunk. And he's telling -- and he's 3 sitting across from Mr. Minton, and I'm sitting, you know, 4 watching these two. 5 And Mr. Prince starts telling Mr. Minton this 6 whole story about how when -- when he was in Scientology, 7 he was awakened at 4:45 in the morning and he was summonsed 8 to Mr. Miscavige's office -- that's the head of 9 Scientology, your Honor -- and everybody was there in their 10 dress uniforms and, you know, all the head people of 11 Scientology. He named a lot of different people. And they 12 were all in the room, and they wanted him to go to the RPF. 13 That's the Rehabilitation Project Force, which is where 14 Scientology sends people when they screw up. 15 And he went back to his room, and he got a couple 16 of guns. And he brought those guns -- 17 THE COURT: Is this the place that's been 18 referred to as out in the desert? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, yes, he was out at 20 INT. That's what they call it. 21 THE COURT: What was it? 22 THE WITNESS: INT, short for 23 "international." 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 967 Volume 7, 1 Q So he gets boisterous, and you have him thrown 2 out, right? 3 A Hang on. No, no, no, no. You have the wrong 4 story here. Absolutely that is not what happened, 5 Mr. Lirot. So then -- 6 Q Let me back up. I appreciate your thoroughness 7 in responding to my questions. Why is Jesse part of this 8 deal? Why does he have to recant anything? 9 A He doesn't. 10 Q Well, why do you care about him? 11 A We cared about him a lot. He was our friend. We 12 were afraid that he was going to end up being caught 13 between these two ships, basically. 14 Q Obviously, he disagreed? 15 A He obviously -- he seems to now. He didn't act 16 like he did up until a few minutes -- I mean, I didn't 17 quite get to the part where we realized what was going on. 18 But up until a few minutes later from where I ended off the 19 story, we didn't know that. 20 And if -- if Mr. Prince doesn't want to recant, 21 if Mr. Prince doesn't want to get himself out of legal 22 trouble with the courts, that's up to Mr. Prince. We used 23 to think that it was up to us because he was our friend and 24 we've helped him out of other pretty serious legal 25 problems. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 968 Volume 7, 1 Mr. Minton paid for his whole criminal trial when 2 he got caught with drugs. And, you know, it was sort of 3 our habit to take care of Mr. Prince when he got in 4 trouble. And we were planning on helping him again. 5 Q Was that part of this global settlement that was 6 discussed at these other meetings? 7 A Never came up. His name never came up. 8 Q What -- what do you know he said that was 9 untruthful in any testimony that he gave? 10 THE COURT: Oh, dear. I mean -- 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q I guess I'll ask it this way. What did he need 13 to recant? 14 THE COURT: I mean, I don't know what all 15 she knows -- I don't know if Mr. Prince has filed 16 affidavits, Mr. Prince -- I don't know if she knows 17 when he's testified, where he's been. Can we just ask 18 that in general terms? I mean, maybe he's given a 19 bundle of depositions. How many did he give? 20 MR. LIROT: I don't know if he's given any. 21 Has he given any depositions? 22 MR. DANDAR: Two depositions -- one long, 23 seven-volume deposition. 24 MR. FUGATE: And he's filed a number of 25 affidavits. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 969 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Okay. Seven volumes. How many 2 pages do you suppose that is? 3 MR. LIROT: Longer than I have the energy to 4 go over today, Judge. 5 THE COURT: Who took that one? Mr. Moxon? 6 MR. MOXON: No. Mr. Dandar has a lot of 7 them. 8 THE WITNESS: I think Mr. Weinberg took one 9 of them, and Mr. Rosen took another one. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Rosen seems to be 11 longer than either of you all. 12 MR. WEINBERG: He was announced as an 13 expert. I can't remember how long it was. We took a 14 couple of days of deposition. And then a lot of time 15 passed, and there were some other depositions which I 16 didn't do, but I can't remember what the dates of them 17 were. 18 THE WITNESS: But there was one with you at 19 the -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: At the Hyatt. 21 THE WITNESS: -- at the Hyatt in Tampa. 22 MR. WEINBERG: And you were there. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q So -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 970 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Notice I didn't ask you all to 2 give me all those depositions. Seven volumes, I can't 3 do it. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't think you wanted to 5 read those. 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 MR. DANDAR: Three full days in November of 8 '99. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. DANDAR: Two days in May of 2000. 11 THE WITNESS: In Denver. There was one of 12 them in Denver. 13 MR. DANDAR: That's another unrelated case. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Remember, your Honor, this 15 came right after Mr. Prince filed his affidavit about 16 end cycle and all these things. And then we were 17 allowed to take his deposition. And you might 18 imagine, the case having expanded, that he became a 19 central focus as far as we were concerned. 20 THE COURT: I just said I don't want to read 21 anymore. I'm not going to ask you all anymore for all 22 the depositions because you give them to me and I get 23 frustrated when I'm halfway through and think, "Oh, my 24 God, I can't believe I said I would read all of them." 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 971 Volume 7, 1 Q So bottom line, Jesse, he didn't take your 2 suggestion or your advice on doing anything, did he? 3 A No. 4 Q And he ended up -- he left the hotel, no deal. 5 Safe to say? 6 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to "no 7 deal." I didn't hear any conversation about a deal. 8 THE WITNESS: Right. 9 A That's really not accurate. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q All right. He left the hotel and basically said, 12 "I'm not interested in following in your path of working 13 this case out or being in any way --" 14 THE COURT: That isn't what either he said 15 or she said or Mr. Minton said. 16 THE WITNESS: No. 17 THE COURT: So the deal is, Counselor, you'd 18 better just ask her what was said. Ask her what was 19 said by Mr. Prince. And then we'll ask Mr. Minton, 20 and we'll see if we get anything close to the same. 21 Don't you try to suggest it. You weren't there. 22 MR. LIROT: I wasn't there. 23 THE COURT: Either ask -- 24 MR. LIROT: I wasn't there. 25 THE COURT: Either ask or lead. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 972 Volume 7, 1 A Do you want me to tell you? 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Tell me. 4 A Okay. 5 THE COURT: Preferably lead. But since you 6 haven't, go ahead. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Did you say "leave" or 8 "lead"? 9 THE COURT: "Lead." 10 MR. WEINBERG: I thought you meant "leave." 11 THE COURT: "Lead." Leading questions are 12 sometimes good. 13 A So Mr. Prince finished this whole story about 14 drawing these guns on these people. And then he said to 15 Mr. Minton something like, "I don't want to go down that 16 road with you, Bobby." 17 And Mr. Minton took that -- felt -- took that as 18 a threat. And he said, "What the hell are you talking 19 about, Jesse?" 20 And Jesse said, "You've become a Scientologist." 21 And that was when we understood that Jesse was 22 not with us and -- anymore. And so then some other words 23 were exchanged, and then Mr. Minton said, "You need to 24 get --" 25 Oh, oh, and this other thing that was happening KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 973 Volume 7, 1 was, he was using a lot of profanity, and Mr. Minton kept 2 asking him to stop because this woman and her child were 3 sitting right there and Mr. Prince just kept getting louder 4 and louder. And it was my feeling that he was just really, 5 really drunk. 6 And so I -- and so Mr. Minton got really mad and 7 said, "You need to get up and you need to leave this hotel 8 right now and I never want to see you again." 9 Well, okay, but he was angry, and Mr. Prince was 10 really drunk. And so I walked out with Mr. Prince to try 11 and talk to him about what had happened and, you know, get 12 him to go in and apologize to Mr. Minton. 13 But instead, Mr. Prince, as we were walking 14 towards his car, he started yelling and saying, you know -- 15 you know, "Bob's never done anything for me." 16 He -- well, he was using a lot of profanity, and 17 I was just really shocked at what he was saying, because I 18 mean, you can say a lot of things about Mr. Minton, but you 19 can't say that he's not done a lot for Jesse Prince. That 20 you cannot say. And for Mr. Prince to be talking that way, 21 it was just stunning to me. 22 And so I just stopped, and I just figured that he 23 needed to go home and get some sleep and sober up. 24 Q So you took him to his car, and that was the 25 end -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 974 Volume 7, 1 A Well, I didn't take him. He just walked on to 2 his car. 3 Q All right. And then you went back and joined 4 Mr. Minton? 5 A Yes. 6 Q All right. Now, did you speak with Mr. Prince 7 after that? 8 A Yes. The next day he called me. 9 THE COURT: Are we at a good stopping point 10 or are we about to end with this or do we have a lot 11 more? 12 MR. LIROT: Judge, after we go through this, 13 I wanted to go through the deposition -- not the 14 deposition, but the affidavit. This would be a good 15 stopping point. 16 THE COURT: The affidavit? 17 MR. LIROT: The 22-pager, and then I'm done. 18 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- your Honor, can 20 we find out if I will be done tomorrow? 21 THE COURT: I don't think you will. I mean, 22 we just took a long time getting through one evening. 23 He's going to go through that 27-page [sic] affidavit. 24 There's a lot of stuff in there. I bet it will be 25 days. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 975 Volume 7, 1 MR. LIROT: No, Judge, I won't make it last 2 days. 3 THE COURT: What's that? 4 MR. LIROT: I won't make it last days. 5 There are a number of questions I think are 6 relevant -- 7 THE COURT: I'm not -- trust me, as I said, 8 I'm not trying to cut you short. It just seems like 9 it's taking an awful long time to get whatever it is 10 you want out. 11 So I don't know if you'll be done tomorrow 12 or not. Why? Is there somewhere you need to be the 13 next day? 14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Just tired? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: If you're tired, understand 18 this. When you're done, I'm not. So there you go. 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm sure you're a 20 lot more tired of this than I am. 21 THE COURT: All right. You can count on it. 22 We're going to stop for the day. Oh, I did 23 want to -- 24 MR. McGOWAN: Judge -- 25 THE COURT: Yes, we were going to talk about KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 976 Volume 7, 1 the -- 2 You can step down. 3 I wanted to take up that motion, but you 4 know what? I'm tired, and I don't feel like doing 5 justice to a legal matter, so -- 6 MR. McGOWAN: That's fine. 7 THE COURT: -- can we do it in the morning? 8 9 o'clock? 9 You all don't have to be here. We'll take 10 up this legal whatever it is that they want to object 11 to. Who was it who produced? They did. 12 You're all welcome to come, but if you 13 don't, this is going to be a legal argument. 14 MR. McGOWAN: What time did you tell 15 Ms. Brooks? 16 THE COURT: 9:30? Is that okay? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Is that okay with you all? Do 19 you think half an hour, we can do the motions? 20 MR. McGOWAN: That's fine. 21 THE COURT: Well, we're going to take up 22 this motion at 9, so -- 23 THE WITNESS: Better be here. 24 THE COURT: This has to do with your income 25 tax and LMT's tax returns, so you might want to be KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 977 Volume 7, 1 here for it. 2 See you all tomorrow at 9 o'clock. 3 (Court adjourned at 5:07 p.m.) 4 ____________________________________ 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 978 Volume 7, 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS 3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that 6 the transcript is a true record. 7 WITNESS MY HAND this 14th day of May, 2002, at 8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida. 9 10 _________________________________ Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 979 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 8 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 DATE: May 14, 2002. Morning Session. 17 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 18 St. Petersburg, Florida. 19 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 20 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 21 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 22 23 24 25 980 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 12 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization. 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 18 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 19 Organization. 20 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 21 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. 22 Counsel for Robert Minton. 23 24 25 981 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN 3 MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 4 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 6 ALSO PRESENT: 7 Ms. Donna West Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 982 1 THE COURT: Okay, let's take up a few of these 2 matters from yesterday. 3 First off, Mr. Howie, apparently this 4 material -- the materials from the Hague Convention, 5 whatever this is, you have seen this now. 6 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, I have. 7 THE COURT: Is this in compliance with the 8 order I signed or whatever it was done by me to get 9 in? 10 MR. HOWIE: I have reason to believe there was 11 a request sent by this court. I recall seeing. I 12 went through all of my pleadings last night. I did 13 not find that specific order. To say it is in 14 compliance -- I have no objection to its use in 15 evidence. Whether it is in full compliance with the 16 court's order -- 17 THE COURT: Does anybody have that order? Did 18 you give that to me yesterday. 19 MR. MOXON: I gave it to you yesterday, your 20 Honor. I think I have another copy. I'll see if I 21 can find it. 22 THE COURT: I may just have it sitting right up 23 here. I think maybe this is probably it. 24 MR. MOXON: This was before Judge Beach. 25 Mr. Dandar -- 983 1 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, do you recall this, 2 that I requested this? 3 MR. LIROT: You -- 4 MR. DANDAR: You requested it since -- 5 THE COURT: They are both Judge Beach 6 apparently. 7 MR. DANDAR: Defendants requested it and an 8 order was signed. 9 THE COURT: By Judge Beach. 10 MR. DANDAR: I believe so. 11 THE COURT: Those are the copies of two orders. 12 And this, whatever this is, this complies with the 13 request? 14 MR. DANDAR: As soon as we can get it 15 interpreted, we believe it does. 16 THE COURT: All right. Okay. Now, do you have 17 a copy, Mr. Howie? 18 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I have a copy of the 19 letter from Norway, including the letters from 20 Andreas Heldal-Lund that are attached there. 21 THE COURT: So this complies with that order? 22 MR. HOWIE: It -- presuming that is the entire 23 document and examination production of Andreas 24 Heldal-Lund in Operation Clambake, it would appear 25 to comply. 984 1 MR. DANDAR: Plaintiff does not have a copy of 2 it. 3 THE COURT: Nobody has a copy except Mr. Howie. 4 I have got it right here. 5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 6 THE COURT: We just decided he should have the 7 opportunity to look to see if it comports with the 8 request. But I don't know how anybody would know if 9 you can't read -- 10 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, it appears to be a 11 series -- from what little I can make it, it appears 12 to be a series of letters from Andreas Heldal-Lund, 13 but beyond that it is hard to make out, making 14 criminal allegations. 15 THE COURT: Against who? 16 MR. HOWIE: Against the Church of Scientology, 17 presumably. But between limited knowledge of German 18 and very limited knowledge of Swedish, that is what 19 I can make out. 20 THE COURT: Well, is that what was requested? 21 I thought what was requested -- 22 MR. MOXON: No -- 23 THE COURT: -- was financial records. 24 MR. MOXON: Judge, I haven't seen the letter so 25 I don't know what you have there. 985 1 THE COURT: Here, I'm going to give each of you 2 all a copy so you know what I'm talking about. 3 Mr. Dandar, I'm going to give you this original. If 4 one -- there is one page in there you'll have to 5 copy for everyone, because my copier did not pick it 6 up very well. 7 MR. DANDAR: You want me to copy it? 8 THE COURT: I don't care. I think it was their 9 request so I gave it to them, but there is one page 10 in there, you'll see it is very light in the 11 original. And our copy machine, I -- it came out 12 even lighter. So Mr. Moxon said they would use a 13 copy machine to see if they could get a better copy, 14 but if you get a good copy, you'll see on that 15 original it is very light. 16 MR. MOXON: Yes. 17 MR. DANDAR: It says on Page 3 of this document 18 amends J -- I'm just kidding. Sorry. 19 THE COURT: For now we're off the record 20 because we are going to make fun of this. 21 (A discussion was held off the record.) 22 MR. MOXON: The financial records is what were 23 requested. There seems to be correspondence from 24 Mr. Lund, too. I don't know if it is financial 25 information or what it is. Because I don't have a 986 1 clue what he's saying here. 2 THE COURT: It seems to suggest -- I guess we 3 can be on the record here. It seems to suggest by 4 the cover letter that it's a request of mine 5 dated -- I have to assume this is 11/16/01. And so 6 I have given up my copies of the order now. But I 7 don't know what I requested. That appears to be two 8 things of Judge Beach. And specifically it is 9 addressed to me. So I don't remember anything about 10 this. But -- 11 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I can explain that. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. MOXON: When we sent the order signed by 14 Judge Beach over to our counsel in Norway pursuant 15 to the Hague Convention and asked him to relay it to 16 the Norwegian authorities, and he did. And they 17 contacted him and told him that, "This is fine. 18 We'll go ahead and ask Mr. Lund for the materials." 19 And they got the materials and said, "However, we 20 need to send it back to the Court." 21 So I gave our attorney in Norway your name and 22 address. 23 THE COURT: Okay. That is fine. Now, whatever 24 this other stuff is besides the financial documents, 25 it appears that a lot of it comes from this 987 1 ZENU.Net, which I assume this is some site 2 somewhere. 3 MR. MOXON: It says Operation Clambake at the 4 top. 5 THE COURT: Right. 6 MR. DANDAR: That is ZENU.Net. 7 THE COURT: I have to assume this higher 8 executive office from the Royal Ministry of Justice 9 & Police looked at this order and sent this. It's 10 just very difficult for me because I have absolutely 11 no idea what it says. So I guess what I'll do is 12 I'm going to hand it out and suggest that when you 13 all have it interpreted, if it looks like there is 14 something improper, well, just bring it to my 15 attention. 16 MR. MOXON: Okay, I'll have the original so 17 I'll make clean copies for everybody. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Well, if everybody has good 19 copies of everything except this one page, and I'll 20 show you -- boy, you should be able to see it. It's 21 a very light page in the originals. 22 MR. DANDAR: Judge, the purpose of this was to 23 find out where the $300,000 came from to the LMT 24 that Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton testified came from 25 Operation Clambake. And this bank statement shows 988 1 almost, you know, $85 short of $300,000 going to the 2 Bank of New York, then the Bank of America in 3 Clearwater. What I don't know, if the Norwegian 4 letters explain where the $300,000 came from to go 5 to Operation Clambake. That is what we don't know. 6 MR. MOXON: None of us know. 7 THE COURT: Well, here is the deal. They sent 8 it. Apparently Judge Beach entered an order. This 9 is what they sent. As I said, you all have it 10 transcribed. If it looks like from either party 11 that there is something here or -- you know, 12 certainly we can have it transcribed for Mr. Minton. 13 You have it transcribed for the church. You have it 14 transcribed for the plaintiff. If there is anything 15 here that shouldn't be there, somebody needs to 16 bring it to my attention and I'll expect it to be 17 returned. But I don't know what to do. I got it. 18 It's in a foreign language, and I don't think there 19 is any need to file this in the court file. 20 MR. MOXON: I don't think so, no. 21 THE COURT: Because this is a request to 22 produce type thing. So I have a copy of it. I'll 23 keep it. 24 MR. MOXON: Good. Thank you, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: I have got two extra copies. Do 989 1 you want a copy? 2 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 3 THE COURT: It does apparently have to do with 4 funds that went to LMT. Mr. Howie, you have one? 5 MR. HOWIE: Yes. 6 THE COURT: I have an extra. I made five 7 copies. One for me. Somebody doesn't have one. I 8 gave you one. 9 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 10 MR. MOXON: You gave me the original, your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: Oh, that is it. Thank you. 13 Okay. All right. Now, we're going to take 14 up -- well, first of all, let me see what I didn't 15 tell you all yesterday. I think I told you all most 16 of this stuff. 17 As a matter of -- just for my own information, 18 I read a little blip in the St. Petersburg Times 19 about Mr. Wollersheim recovering a verdict. Is that 20 accurate information? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Not a verdict; it was a 22 payment of the outstanding judgment. 23 THE COURT: These two items we're going to take 24 up as being the Brooks and Minton tax returns and 25 LMT's tax returns. That is a matter for me. 990 1 We talked about the sealed depositions. 2 Did I tell you all I needed a copy of the 3 transcript of the severe sanctions if I couldn't 4 find it? 5 MR. DANDAR: You did say that. 6 MR. FUGATE: Oh. 7 THE COURT: It's on your list. Okay. 8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, here is the Alain 9 Kartuzinski -- 10 THE COURT: Thank you. 11 MR. FUGATE: I didn't think of the other one. 12 THE COURT: Thanks. I was -- I'll put that 13 over here. 14 MR. DANDAR: It must be a condensed version. 15 THE COURT: I looked again for this deposition 16 last night and I just couldn't put my hands on it. 17 But as I said, I get frustrated about halfway 18 through this stuff. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I think there was a notebook we 20 gave you with those depositions in it. 21 THE COURT: Do you know how many I have? 22 MR. WEINBERG: I guess the notebook is not a 23 good clue. 24 THE COURT: It's not a good clue. No. 25 I have the third affidavit. That third 991 1 affidavit, as I read it last night, isn't a 2 recanting affidavit. It's just simply an affidavit 3 of fact. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 5 THE COURT: All right. I had an additional 6 memorandum to support the omnibus motion for 7 terminating sanctions and other relief. It appears 8 to deal, to some extent, with the issue that I 9 raised yesterday about the allegations in the 10 complaint and whether or not you had anyone to 11 produce in that. I did advise you of that so 12 obviously they are making this part of an issue of 13 law, so -- 14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 15 THE COURT: Oh, one thing you-all could help me 16 with. As requested -- or I don't know if it was 17 requested or not, but I was handed the depositions 18 of Mr. Minton, and I did read them, and I was handed 19 the depositions of Ms. Liebreich. I did read them. 20 Do you know, one of her sets of depositions is 21 so hard to read that I honestly just -- I mean, I 22 just started glancing and looked for key words. But 23 there is one set of her depositions that is just a 24 terrible -- it's unlike anything in the rest of 25 them. I don't want -- I don't want it unless you 992 1 all think there is something in there I absolutely 2 need, either side. But I'm going to tell you-all 3 which one it was. 4 MR. WEINBERG: You mean it was a bad copy? 5 THE COURT: No. It was -- I'm going to show it 6 to you-all. Well, in truth, I guess I did read it. 7 It was this one dated January -- it would have been 8 the one dated January 10th. 9 It just was an unusual copy. If you'll look at 10 the copy, the lines -- trying to figure out what 11 line anything was on, were very blurred. But I see 12 now that I struggled through it. Apparently I put 13 it down one night and picked it up the next day. So 14 this was unusual. 15 When you are reading a compressed transcript -- 16 well, I'm sure you all realize this better than 17 anybody. The ones that are the easiest ones, at 18 least cut in quarters, you can see defined lines. 19 This one doesn't have defined lines. So everything 20 just -- but I don't want another one. I mean, it 21 looks like I went through and struggled with it. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm looking at another copy and 23 the pages don't come out on it, so -- 24 THE COURT: For whatever reason, the ones that 25 had the lines seem to be much easier to deal with. 993 1 But as I said, I struggled through it. 2 One of the things that I -- anyway, so I read 3 those and I made notes and I made notes for how much 4 and what have you. 5 But one of the things I really wasn't sure that 6 I really had when I was all done, and my notes 7 didn't help me much, was exactly where the false 8 statements that Mr. Minton says he made about the 9 exclusion of the $500,000 are. I also noticed that 10 in various filings you all have said that he said a 11 million-fifty, and I saw that and a million-three. 12 And I heard that figure because I wonder remembering 13 if a million-three meant @ one million three three 14 three. You know, in my crazy mind I remember 15 thinking that. 16 I couldn't find it. So if somebody could just 17 show me exactly where -- if somebody could give me a 18 little sheet that says where these false statements 19 are. I could only find them -- I could only find 20 this million-five -- I'm sorry, $1,050,000 in one 21 deposition. 22 MR. DANDAR: May 2000. 23 THE COURT: May of 2000. So -- because after 24 that it appeared to me that in the deposition in 25 this case Mr. Minton claimed the Fifth. 994 1 MR. DANDAR: Right. 2 THE COURT: I got tired of reading that. I 3 must admit, it may be in there where he blurted 4 something out and I just missed it. You know how it 5 is when you read page after page. 6 MR. MOXON: You are exactly right. 7 THE COURT: Am I? 8 MR. MOXON: Yes, in May he said a 9 million-fifty. 10 THE COURT: Where is there million-three I see 11 from time to time? 12 MR. MOXON: There was a -- a million-three was 13 a term that was mentioned in another deposition as 14 to how much he put into the Lisa McPherson Trust. 15 That is in the record. 16 But there was a million-three, if you count 17 another $250,000 which he acknowledged. But that 18 was -- that wasn't in May of 2000; that was in May 19 of 2001. So in May of 2001 there was $1,300,000 20 that was acknowledged. In May of 2000 there was 21 $1,050,000 acknowledged on the record. That is all. 22 So it is in the record. 23 THE COURT: So May of 2000 deposition is the 24 one we're speaking of? 25 MR. MOXON: That is correct. 995 1 THE COURT: All right. Well, is a 2 million-three another error? I mean, is that 3 another -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: It would be an error, too. They 5 would be short 500. 6 THE COURT: So, in other words, instead of a 7 million-three it should have been a million-eight? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 9 THE COURT: Could you please, somebody, if you 10 have those tabbed, just put deposition -- Minton 11 deposition date, page and line so I can readily find 12 that when I refer to it. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 14 THE COURT: I also noticed then at the 15 deposition taken in the breach of contract he, 16 likewise, took the Fifth. So I presumed in both of 17 those depositions they were not repeats; they were 18 simply the Fifth Amendment. So I'm glad to see I 19 didn't miss that. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: I will check on this because I 23 don't want to -- I don't have it in front of me -- 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- but I'm just looking at my 996 1 notes on this issue of the million-fifty. The 2 instances in which this was either misstated or not 3 provided include not only what you just indicated, 4 but I believe there was a deposition of Mr. Minton 5 dated September 18, 2001 at Pages 29 and 30 in which 6 the $1,050,000 figure was referred to. 7 THE COURT: Would you do me a favor -- 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'll check on that. 9 THE COURT: -- give me a piece of paper -- it 10 doesn't have to be a filing -- where you say on such 11 and such a deposition, that seems to be quite an 12 issue here. 13 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, one other point of 14 clarification. There was a later statement by 15 Mr. Dandar on the record, too, that is part of this, 16 of course, that he said he received -- 17 THE COURT: I saw where that was alleged, so if 18 you want to, you can put that in there, too, just 19 where this misstatement -- alleged misstatement of 20 money is. All right? 21 MR. MOXON: Yes. 22 THE COURT: And, Mr. Dandar, you can either 23 verify what they put down or give me your own or 24 whatever. 25 MR. DANDAR: It is on Page 212 of the May 24 -- 997 1 THE COURT: See, I don't want you all to -- 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. 3 THE COURT: I don't want to write notes. I 4 want it on a piece of paper. 5 MR. DANDAR: All right. 6 THE COURT: In Mr. Minton's first affidavit, he 7 makes a statement -- maybe I'll hear about this, 8 maybe I'm just premature -- that he has reason to 9 believe another $100,000 was not discovered. I 10 don't know what exactly that means. Not discovered. 11 But I don't know whether he's going to refer to 12 this in his testimony. I don't know whether it is 13 not an issue. I don't know whether they are saying 14 there is some lie about that or whether that is 15 just -- I don't know what that means, but I made 16 myself a note, when, what date, what does this mean, 17 it's not discovered. So I made a note about that. 18 In several of your submissions, the Church's 19 submissions, they refer to two cases. And it always 20 says -- and this is maybe in some orders, maybe that 21 is where I saw it, in some of Judge Quesada's orders 22 perhaps. He refers to Golden Door Jewelry -- two 23 federal cases. 24 MR. DANDAR: Rentclub and Golden Door. 25 THE COURT: Golden Door and Rentclub. And 998 1 it -- they refer to, like even to. @AUDIO I know 2 like anybody reading them know what those cases are. 3 Obviously I can go read them, that is what I have, 4 "Read these two cases." I don't know what he's 5 referring to. Does anybody know off the top of 6 their head? 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes, I do. 8 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Dandar, why don't you 9 tell us. 10 MR. DANDAR: Those are two cases that the 11 Church of Scientology insists on putting in the 12 orders to -- they talk about this qualification of 13 attorney. One of them dealt with the attorney 14 hiring the current legal consultant or the corporate 15 vice-president during the trial and having that 16 vice-president tell the attorney all of the work 17 product of the other side, much @ lease Ms. Brooks 18 handed over my letter of May of '97 to these 19 attorneys about my work product. And that was an 20 instant disqualification of the attorneys who looked 21 at that work product. 22 THE COURT: Well, are these disqualification 23 cases? 24 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Because it seems like I don't know 999 1 why Judge Quesada would be dealing with these. 2 MR. DANDAR: Well, he put it in their proposed 3 order. He was going to leave it in there. I said, 4 "You know, it makes it look like you are looking at 5 me like I did something wrong." 6 He said, "Oh, no --" it is on the record, by 7 the way. He said, "They put it in. It is @}in 8 the cycle. It doesn't matter." 9 THE COURT: I can see nobody will agree. I 10 better just read the case. 11 MR. FUGATE: I was going to say you should read 12 them because they deal with expert witnesses that 13 are paid. 14 MR. DANDAR: But I'll also tell you that 15 Rentclub case they cite over and over again has been 16 superseded by the Supreme Court of Florida decision 17 called HCA Management, which I will give you a copy 18 of. 19 THE COURT: Okay. But they are -- they are 20 something about attorneys and bad faith or 21 something? 22 MR. FUGATE: And they deal with expert 23 witnesses who are paid and have an interest in the 24 litigation, as I recall. But you can read it, 25 Judge, and -- 1000 1 THE COURT: Yes, as I said, I just saw it and I 2 made a note to myself. I thought -- 3 MR. MOXON: Just to clarify, the other issue, 4 Rentclub in particular, your Honor, is payment of 5 money to fact witnesses. 6 MR. FUGATE: Right. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. MOXON: Which will -- 9 THE COURT: All right. I have already told you 10 I wanted -- didn't I -- or did I say I wanted a copy 11 of all affidavits provided by Stacy Brooks? Did I 12 say that to you-all yesterday? 13 MR. MOXON: Yes. 14 THE COURT: I said I did not have except the 15 two recanting affidavits. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 17 THE COURT: So if you-all -- if you-all could 18 get those for me. And yes, I did tell you, I 19 said -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: You told us your -- it was your 21 number 13 or something on your list. 22 THE COURT: It was my number 23. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I eliminated 10. We'll 24 try to bring them tomorrow. 25 THE COURT: @AUDIO I told you-all one was 1001 1 affidavit not position filed 2/98 and there were 2 apparently filed 10/99 to support plaintiff's motion 3 to amend, then yesterday you-all told me they were 4 affidavits given in another -- other cases, but they 5 had a cover sheet submitting them in this case in 6 some fashion. 7 MR. FUGATE: Those were submitted by plaintiff. 8 I think we had given you all of the -- of the ones 9 that have generated since then. 10 THE COURT: So this is for you, Mr. Dandar. 11 Mr. Dandar? That is for you to give me. Okay? 12 MR. DANDAR: Stacy Brooks? 13 THE COURT: The three affidavits the plaintiff 14 submitted. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. 16 THE COURT: Did you-all write this down 17 yesterday? 18 MR. DANDAR: No, we made copies of those, 19 actually. We have those. 20 MR. FUGATE: Because the other affidavit that 21 was produced yesterday was the declaration of Stacy 22 Brooks regarding records retention and destruction 23 from LMT. That was in the package we turned over, 24 so that is all of the ones that we have that I'm 25 aware of. 1002 1 THE COURT: Okay. So you-all get those 2 together, give them to me. I talked to you a little 3 bit about the 2d DCA. I would just have to keep you 4 all -- tell me if there is any change in that DCA 5 opinion as you-all did yesterday, told me another 6 one. 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Here is the Stacy Brooks 8 affidavit that was filed on February 3, 1998, which 9 included her affidavit or declaration from @ 10 Dickerson versus Sally Jesse Rafael. A Michigan 11 case. And then here is a Stacy Young affidavit that 12 we filed with the motion to add on parties in 13 October; October 7, '99. This one is dated 14 March 13, 1997 from another case. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I show there are 16 three. Maybe not. 17 MR. DANDAR: Well, there are -- 18 THE COURT: There must be something, if you 19 filed this. It wasn't on the front of it. 20 MR. DANDAR: Motion to add parties. 21 THE COURT: And it was attached to it? 22 MR. DANDAR: It was attached as one of the 23 exhibits. 24 THE COURT: Well, I -- 25 MR. DANDAR: Would you like to have the whole 1003 1 thing? 2 THE COURT: Yes, I really would. I need to 3 know what this has to do with. 4 MR. DANDAR: In your hand is two affidavits. 5 One saying I attached my prior affidavit and it is 6 true and correct. 7 THE COURT: Okay. That would be the third one. 8 So you get whatever goes with that. And give it to 9 me. 10 MR. DANDAR: All right. 11 THE COURT: In your good time. 12 But I would like to have it before Ms. Brooks 13 is done because I may have some question about it. 14 MR. DANDAR: Okay. We'll call the office. 15 THE COURT: Well, get me the affidavit, then 16 you can give me what it goes to. 17 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 18 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, could I get a copy 19 from Mr. Dandar of what he's submitting? 20 THE COURT: You all should have it because it's 21 been filed. These are filed affidavits. Yes, you 22 can make a copy. Take mine, I guess, make a copy. 23 But I want it -- I mean, he doesn't have extras. 24 I'm lucky to have these. 25 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 1004 1 MR. DANDAR: You would be surprised. I might 2 have some extras. 3 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Dandar. 4 MR. DANDAR: Are these extras? 5 THE COURT: Then I already covered this with 6 you-all about some of the exhibits that were 7 introduced in front of Judge Baird that I thought 8 perhaps ought not be considered in this case. And I 9 also discussed this. The LMT payments to witnesses 10 taped statements haven't been produced yet, but 11 we're going to get to that issue. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 13 THE COURT: That is really all I have. So I 14 covered a -- a lot of the stuff was notes to me, do 15 this, do that. 16 Okay. Let's deal with the request to produce 17 the two things that were objected to. One was LMT's 18 tax return which you say only exists for 2000. 19 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: And I guess Ms. Brooks' return -- 21 personal return was requested for five years. Was 22 that it? 23 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. 24 THE COURT: And you objected. 25 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. 1005 1 THE COURT: So I will hear you. Let's take 2 them one at a time. LMT existed really for what, a 3 year and a half? 4 MR. McGOWAN: A year and a half. 5 THE COURT: Came into existence in January of 6 2000, maybe November? 7 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Of '99? 9 MR. McGOWAN: Right. But -- 10 THE COURT: But for all intents and purposes, 11 it's major year of operation was 2000. 12 MR. McGOWAN: 2000, then it shut down in 2001. 13 I have the 2000 tax return here. An appropriate 14 number of copies. The 2001 return hasn't been filed 15 so it doesn't exist. 16 THE COURT: An extension has been asked for? 17 MR. McGOWAN: No, the paperwork -- I just 18 received the paperwork and forwarded it to a CPA who 19 I assume will file an extension. 20 THE COURT: Okay. So it has not been filed, no 21 extension has been requested. 22 MR. McGOWAN: No. Simply the raw financial 23 materials. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Now tell me why it shouldn't 25 be produced. 1006 1 MR. McGOWAN: Well, your Honor, in the first -- 2 in the first place, I would point out to the Court 3 that the similar request has been made in this case 4 to produce Mr. Dandar's tax returns. They have 5 objected on the grounds that the production of tax 6 returns is privileged. 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry, that what? 8 MR. McGOWAN: That the production of tax 9 returns is privileged. That is their position with 10 respect to Mr. Dandar's tax returns. They are 11 obviously inconsistent in asking for the LMT and 12 Brooks tax returns. 13 I can tell you, your Honor, that my research 14 indicates that the production of tax returns is not 15 privileged. But that the Court can scrutinize why 16 tax returns are being sought. We have objected on 17 the grounds of -- on the grounds of burdensome, 18 irrelevant and oppressive. And as we enter Day 6 of 19 this witness's testimony, I can tell you there are 20 depreciation schedules on here that could give a new 21 meaning to oppressive if we have to give them over. 22 THE COURT: I'm sorry, to give what? 23 MR. McGOWAN: A new meaning to oppressive if we 24 have to give them over and go over depreciation 25 schedules of these tax returns. 1007 1 If I can approach, the -- and I apologize for 2 the format of this case -- 3 THE COURT: That is all right. 4 MR. McGOWAN: My West Law citings got messed 5 up. This is Cabanas versus Ford, Armenteros and 6 Manucy. 727 So.2d, 1100. 7 And in that case, if you go to the Page 4, 8 notes 3 and 4, the Court does an analysis of when 9 tax return production is appropriate. And in that 10 case the party seeking the tax returns had to make a 11 proffer of why the production of the returns would 12 be relevant. Because the test at the end of the day 13 is a relevancy test that the Court has to look at. 14 I would ask at this time that we get such a 15 proffer from the plaintiffs to see what it is 16 they're looking for. Certainly they're not looking 17 for medical deductions or charitable contributions, 18 things like that, as to Ms. Young -- or Ms. Brooks. 19 But -- and I don't know what they're looking 20 for in the LMT. There has been a good deal of 21 testimony about how it was funded, who funded it. 22 And, you know, if they are looking at depreciation 23 of typewriters or what have you, I don't know what 24 relevancy that has. 25 So I would ask the Court allow them to proffer 1008 1 what it is that is relevant about these tax returns 2 so that we can make some kind of an argument about 3 the relevancy issue. 4 THE COURT: All right. I think that is 5 probably appropriate. 6 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm reading the authority 7 provided the Court by Mr. McGowan. And I think it 8 actually supports our position. "Copies of tax 9 returns are not privileged and may be used in state 10 court proceedings where they are relevant." 11 THE COURT: That is all we are asking, Counsel, 12 for you to tell us why they are relevant. 13 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think one of the primary 14 theories we have advanced in the case are there are 15 other explanations why Mr. Minton has changed his 16 position. One of the primary reasons, we think, is 17 that he's afraid of some type of tax evasion charge 18 or some issue involving something that might have 19 been related to taxation. 20 The only way for us to evaluate whether or not 21 that is true is to balance out what moneys were 22 testified to, what the character of those moneys are 23 in testimony, compare those to what they have been 24 represented as in these tax returns to make sure 25 there is consistency there. 1009 1 We don't know and we'll have no way of knowing 2 unless we get a chance to look at these tax returns 3 and see if what was declared as income was properly 4 reported, to see if there is an issue about whether 5 or not, you know, moneys that were gifted were 6 properly reported. 7 So without the tax returns, we don't know. And 8 it goes directly to the relevance of the issue where 9 we are trying to say there is more here than just 10 the explanations given. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. LIROT: So that is basically it. 13 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I believe the Court 14 has already ruled on Mr. Minton's tax returns or 15 his -- the need for him not to -- that he's not 16 going to give them up under his Fifth Amendment 17 privilege. Ms. Brooks and LMT is not asserting the 18 Fifth Amendment privilege. 19 However, if they are interested in some -- 20 THE COURT: I don't know that I have actually 21 ruled on the tax returns. I think I have ruled that 22 when he was required -- when I ruled that he had 23 waived the Fifth Amendment privilege by his Internet 24 postings or various and sundry things where I ruled 25 he waived it, I said he had not waived the right to 1010 1 claim the Fifth Amendment regarding income tax 2 issues is my recollection. I don't know, maybe I'm 3 wrong. I don't think I dealt with the tax return. 4 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court, because 5 I'm joining in these objections based on request for 6 production directed to Mr. Minton, on this point 7 I'm -- 8 THE COURT: Fine, go ahead and you can be heard 9 then right now, too. 10 MR. HOWIE: On that point I'm raising this 11 particular issue. On September 21, 2001 in 12 deposition Mr. Minton took the Fifth Amendment 13 privilege against some 90 questions. A vast 14 majority of those questions dealt with payments made 15 to Mr. Dandar. 16 The Court ruled that Mr. Minton had waived his 17 Fifth Amendment privilege because he had -- 18 THE COURT: Posted these. 19 MR. HOWIE: He posted to these, testified to 20 them under oath. However, he raised Fifth Amendment 21 privilege as to questions concerning his income, the 22 source of the funds, and his tax returns. 23 The Court, by its order, I believe in October 24 of last year, said that he was allowed to continue 25 to raise the privilege. Admittedly there is no 1011 1 symmetry here in our arguments on that particular 2 point. Mr. Minton, we feel, is still allowed to 3 raise the Fifth Amendment privilege. The Court has 4 ruled that his Fifth Amendment privilege on that 5 point is intact. And that would be -- 6 THE COURT: Of course, that LMT, Inc., I @ gee 7 guess is what it is -- is it Inc.? 8 MR. HOWIE: Yes. 9 THE COURT: -- is hardly Mr. Minton's 10 privilege. I mean, that is a corporation, totally 11 separate person under the eyes of the law. 12 MR. HOWIE: That is correct. Mr. Minton does 13 not have standing to raise privilege on behalf of 14 LMT. But on this point where they are requesting 15 Mr. Minton's personal tax returns, apart from any 16 other arguments that we would join in from 17 Mr. McGowan, we also raised the issue that he is 18 maintaining his Fifth Amendment privilege. 19 THE COURT: Does he plan to continue to assert 20 that, if asked? In other words, is that something 21 he's going to waive or he's going to continue to 22 assert? 23 MR. HOWIE: He's going to continue to assert 24 his Fifth Amendment privilege as to the income, the 25 source of any moneys, and reporting of the same on 1012 1 his tax returns. 2 THE COURT: And so -- so he doesn't want to 3 turn over his tax returns because that can be part 4 of his Fifth Amendment privilege? 5 MR. HOWIE: Precisely. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MR. HOWIE: In addition to any other objections 8 and grounds raised by Mr. McGowan that would pertain 9 to Mr. Minton. I don't need to repeat those. 10 THE COURT: I think that is the problem. I 11 don't know what benefit, frankly, the LMT tax return 12 will be to counsel. But I don't think it -- you 13 can't claim a privilege on the part of a 14 corporation. 15 MR. McGOWAN: No, you can't. 16 THE COURT: I understand what they believe to 17 be relevant here. Obviously it is their contention, 18 and it is as clear as it can be from the notice to 19 produce and now anybody here floundering in the 20 dark, that they suggest there are other bases for 21 these lies -- these allegations of lies, I guess I 22 should say; that being I believe they said bribery, 23 extortion. I don't know, there may have been other 24 words. That extortion pertained to allegations of 25 criminal activity on Mr. Minton's part. 1013 1 I have searched through all of the depositions, 2 and I found what I would consider three areas that 3 have come up from time to time. And I'm not 4 necessarily even saying by the lawyers here, but I'm 5 saying he has been deposed by other lawyers. There 6 are three areas, one, whatever his business was in 7 Nigeria. It keeps getting raised either by Internet 8 or questions or what have you that there is some 9 thought of I'll say fraud -- I don't know if it is 10 fraud, money laundering is really what it is -- due 11 to his Nigerian activity. 12 Number two, that Mr. Rosen, in particular, from 13 time to time, apparently has suggested in court and 14 otherwise that there is some racketeering enterprise 15 of Mr. Minton being the hub of it. 16 And, three, that Mr. Minton isn't paying his 17 taxes. 18 So I think all three of those things are going 19 to be explored by the plaintiff to the extent that 20 I'll allow it as their view that there is this 21 motive behind this basis of coming forward and 22 suggesting that Mr. Dandar lied, and he said he 23 didn't. Therefore -- he said he didn't. Therefore, 24 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks are lying and that is 25 another reason. Therefore, I don't think they can 1014 1 claim the privilege. 2 I feel different about Mr. Minton's returns. I 3 think he does have the privilege. I think his 4 lawyer has stated he's going to assert the 5 privilege. I think he's allowed to assert the 6 privilege. 7 I think that, as with any privilege assertion, 8 an adverse interest can be drawn, perhaps and 9 perhaps not. We'll deal with that at the 10 appropriate time. 11 But I think he has the right, I have allowed 12 him to assert the privilege. I don't think he's 13 waived that, in other words. And that has been my 14 ruling and I will consistently rule that unless he 15 waives it. 16 So -- 17 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court, I was also 18 speaking ahead of my written submission. I have a 19 courtesy copy and the original. Should the Court 20 get the original? 21 THE COURT: Oh, yes. 22 MR. HOWIE: That is your copy, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: The clerk needs to know, this is 24 not -- this is not for here, that is a filing. That 25 needs to be filed in the court file. 1015 1 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I would also point out, 2 just to keep the record clear, as to Item 6 in the 3 request for production of documents -- 4 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Let me just deal 5 with this return. Let's get that -- are you done 6 with the LMT? 7 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, at this point I 8 am. There is more to be said on privilege, however. 9 THE COURT: So as to the LMT return -- 10 MR. McGOWAN: The LMT is a separate entity. 11 THE COURT: Right. 12 MR. McGOWAN: This is some sort of guilt by 13 association argument, I assume, by the plaintiffs. 14 If they are looking at Mr. Minton for these things, 15 why in the world do they need the LMT -- 16 THE COURT: Allegations have been made that 17 Ms. Brooks is kind of a figurehead; that Mr. Minton 18 was head of LMT; that -- matter of fact, it has been 19 cited by defendant on numerous occasions that LMT -- 20 as stated by a judge in this case, that LMT and 21 Minton are so intertwined that they're one in the 22 same. And also indicated that this lawsuit is. 23 Therefore, that the decision I presume would have 24 been made by Mr. Minton as to what amount of income 25 to put on the tax returns. 1016 1 So, you know, if you want some time to take up 2 the issue, you may have that time. But my ruling is 3 going to be it has relevance as to whether or not 4 the income -- purely that amount of income that I 5 know Mr. Minton himself has provided to LMT, 6 reported by them on the tax return. If not, perhaps 7 they'll inquire -- 8 MR. McGOWAN: As to Stacy Brooks then, your 9 Honor, I think that is a whole different issue. 10 THE COURT: As to her personal returns? 11 MR. McGOWAN: Her personal returns. 12 THE COURT: So we're done with LMT? 13 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. I'll turn that over. I 14 have it right here. 15 THE COURT: Let's talk about Ms. Brooks' tax 16 returns and especially five years of tax returns. 17 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, five years -- 18 THE COURT: Let's go -- we need to see if they 19 can establish relevancy. So let's just put it right 20 back to them and see what they say and we'll deal 21 with it. Why do you need Ms. Brooks' tax returns? 22 MR. LIROT: Judge, it is our position again 23 that significant amounts of money changed hands 24 between Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. Our concern is 25 basically that was not reported. I think she 1017 1 testified Mr. Minton was her sole source of income. 2 We don't know how much was given to her as a gift, 3 we don't know how much was given to her through the 4 LMT and we need to make sure that everything that 5 she's done has been reported properly so that that 6 couldn't be used as a point of leverage against her. 7 Same issue on relevance, Judge. I mean, it's an 8 important theory to us. 9 THE COURT: Why do you need five years? How 10 about 2000? If you are going to do some tracing 11 here, it would seem to me if you had LMT and hers 12 for 2000, that is about all you need. 13 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I think that we would 14 like to see them from the point in time where she 15 started to participate in, I guess, preparing these 16 declarations in the other cases. Clearly there has 17 been certainly at least some testimony that she 18 certainly has been under some sort of surveillance 19 or, shall we say, investigation. 20 So I'm curious, I think it goes -- 21 THE COURT: I'll tell you, Counselor, I don't 22 know that because I have not seen her depositions. 23 I have seen Mr. Minton's depositions now. And 24 I made some notes, as I went through them, to see if 25 there were some sort of subtle mentionings of 1018 1 perhaps other criminal activity, and there clearly 2 was. I don't know which case it was in, but I 3 certainly know Mr. Rosen raised it upon occasion. 4 So that was my basis. 5 Where do they suggest that Ms. Brooks committed 6 some criminal activity? 7 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think that in asking her 8 to recant all these declarations, basically it 9 accuses her of having made things up for several 10 years. So there is one. 11 THE COURT: Hasn't she already testified that 12 her motive here is not only to -- to -- naturally 13 her motive, she says, is to rid herself of all this 14 anxiety of the harassment that she received and the 15 harassment Mr. Minton has received. 16 But her motive was to -- and I'm not saying 17 this is an ill motive. Her motive in coming forward 18 was for her and Mr. Minton to be out from under what 19 she perceived to be oppression and not only -- I 20 believe it is kind of dual fold, but not only 21 harassment by the Church, but also the harassment 22 was the legal problems she found herself in because 23 she had perjured herself, Mr. Minton perjured 24 himself, and the discovery that the Court ordered 25 was closing in. And she needed to purge herself of 1019 1 that to get rid -- rid of the thought of going to 2 jail for perjury. 3 So she really expressed two motives here. I 4 have not heard anything that suggests that one of 5 her motives could be she was afraid of -- that the 6 defendant in this case was pressuring her because 7 she had not reported her taxes. I did see that in 8 Mr. Minton's return -- I mean in Mr. Minton's 9 deposition. 10 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I think basically 11 because of the close relationship between Mr. Minton 12 and Ms. Brooks and some of the money that changed 13 hands between LMT and some -- I guess Ms. Brooks' 14 testimony was that she thought money was coming from 15 other sources. She didn't know where it was coming 16 are from. Basically we want to be able to look at 17 whether or not she received large sums of money, and 18 that might be one of the bases that Mr. Minton is 19 concerned with his tax issues. 20 THE COURT: Well, you don't know of any large 21 sums of money. She was paid by LMT $5,000 a month. 22 Right? 23 MR. LIROT: That is part of what she was 24 getting. Yes. 25 THE COURT: Well, what else was she getting? I 1020 1 mean, if she's having a relationship with a man and 2 the man is providing her money, that is not going to 3 be income in the traditional sense. She's not going 4 to have to report that on her return any more than a 5 wife would have to report moneys given to her by her 6 husband. 7 MR. LIROT: Well, respectfully, Judge, I think 8 that goes to the sum changing hands, if it's -- I 9 think if it is over $10,000, even if it is a gift, 10 it has to be reported. So we don't know. But we 11 think it's relevant and it is worthy of examination. 12 And certainly I think if the plausibility 13 argument is going to be one that, yes, Mr. Minton 14 has said this, I don't know that we can draw that 15 very distinct line between Mr. Minton's financial 16 concerns and Ms. Brooks' financial concerns. 17 I think that there is certainly a carryover. 18 Ms. Brooks has a very close relationship with 19 Mr. Minton. She seems to be intimately involved, or 20 at least aware of what his financial realities are. 21 And I think that might have carried over at least 22 into some of the tax returns that she might be 23 responsible to file. So ... 24 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, it's a bit of a 25 stretch to go from Mr. Minton to Ms. Brooks' tax 1021 1 returns. What I guess they are saying is that since 2 Ms. Brooks has recanted, therefore, she must be -- 3 THE COURT: Must lie on her income tax returns. 4 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, and let's fish through her 5 tax returns and see. 6 THE COURT: That is the problem I have. I 7 don't have a problem with Mr. Minton because I saw 8 in the depositions some subtle threats -- that is 9 too strong a word, some subtleties suggesting there 10 was some awareness he had not been completely honest 11 in his taxes. 12 MR. LIROT: Yes. 13 THE COURT: That is a motive for worrying about 14 a party and what they might know. You can explore 15 that except you cannot require him to testify. He 16 can claim the Fifth Amendment. I have not seen 17 that. If you have got it, show it to me. I'll give 18 you time to show it to me. I have not had the 19 benefit of looking at her depositions. 20 To be honest with you, unless I just have to, I 21 would like for somebody to point these out rather 22 than me have to read, myself. So if you have got 23 it, you find it. You show me where either whoever 24 took the deposition for the Church in this case or 25 this kinda sorta semirelated case suggested to her 1022 1 that they had information that she wasn't paying her 2 taxes. If you find that for the year 2000, I will 3 allow you to have her 2000 tax return. 4 MR. LIROT: Very good. 5 THE COURT: Because I think if you had the LMT 6 tax return, you could see hers, see if they are 7 deducting it, if she's paying it, all that sort of 8 stuff. But if you can't find any subtle suggestions 9 that there is a thought here that she's not paying 10 her taxes, then I don't think that is relevant, 11 quite frankly. 12 MR. LIROT: We'll go through her depositions 13 and find that for you, Judge. 14 THE COURT: If you can find it. But even then, 15 I'm only going to require the 2000 return. Then you 16 look through the 2000 return, which you'll have from 17 LMT, you would have hers. If you find @ somewhat 18 you would consider to be gross distortion of income 19 reporting, then you can make another argument to me 20 and we'll see whether -- but the first thing that 21 has to be shown is that Ms. Brooks would have some 22 reason to believe that the defendant in this case is 23 subtly suggesting to her that they have information 24 that she's not reported her taxes correctly. 25 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. 1023 1 THE COURT: If you don't have that, then I 2 don't think that becomes -- I mean you can argue 3 that is a motive, but that is about all you can do. 4 So that is my ruling for now. I'm going to 5 grant your request not to turn those over, but I do 6 want you to have the 2000 return close at hand. If 7 they can find those same things that I believe would 8 allow them to make the inquiry of Mr. Minton and I 9 believe would allow him to claim the Fifth, she is 10 not going to claim the Fifth, is she? 11 MR. McGOWAN: No. 12 THE COURT: Then I would then permit them to 13 have that one year's return. Based on what they 14 would tell me if they had the one year's return, I 15 may or may not permit other years' returns. 16 MR. McGOWAN: That return I know is in Atlanta. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. McGOWAN: Well -- 19 THE COURT: If she's coming back -- I don't 20 know when Mr. Minton will be done, but if she's 21 coming back, if she could bring it back. If she's 22 not coming back, she could send it to you with 23 directions, whatever her directions would be. 24 MR. McGOWAN: That is fine, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Right now, I haven't asked it be 1024 1 produced. 2 MR. McGOWAN: Right. Okay. 3 THE COURT: But I think you ought to have it so 4 that if, in fact, that becomes an issue that I allow 5 them to have it, it's here and they can be turned 6 over. 7 MR. McGOWAN: All right. Your Honor, this is 8 the sixth day of her testimony. I have sat 9 silently. I understand @ somebody is recanting 10 perjury, the Court will have less patience with that 11 witness and it's perfectly understandable. But, you 12 know, trials come and go in six days, over -- 13 THE COURT: They sure do. 14 MR. McGOWAN: -- over issues and there has to 15 be some point -- I mean, this witness has been 16 subjected to a lot of repetitious examination, and 17 can we get some idea of how long this is going to go 18 on? I mean, this is -- you know -- 19 THE COURT: It sounded like yesterday morning 20 that Ms. Brooks had been well-advised by counsel 21 because, you know, what I saw, yes, no, yes, no. 22 Good counsel usually suggests to a witness, their 23 own witness, don't go into all kinds of discussion 24 here, just answer the question. I thought, "Wow." 25 Well, that all changed. I can't help that the 1025 1 witness goes on for fifteen minutes when a question 2 is asked. And nobody asked me to shut her off, and 3 I'm not saying improperly. But if everybody sits 4 there, I can't very well say, "Look, the question 5 has been answered a long time ago." 6 If he asks a question and she answers it yes or 7 no and then doesn't explain it, then he has to move 8 on to the next question. If he asks a question and 9 Ms. Brooks takes fifteen or twenty minutes to answer 10 it, and nobody steps up and says the question has 11 been answered, I'm -- you know, my hands are tied. 12 MR. McGOWAN: My observation was that starts to 13 happen around 2:30 in the afternoon, and I think 14 there is a reason for that, too. 15 (Discussion had off the record.) 16 MR. McGOWAN: You were talking about lengthy 17 answers, and I said they tend to come late in the 18 day. And -- later in the day. And I'm just trying 19 to get some idea. I know I spoke to Mr. Lirot 20 yesterday and he indicated he had a couple hours. 21 That was in the morning. And obviously we now have 22 a 23-page affidavit we're going to go through, and I 23 assume the tax return, which does have depreciation 24 schedules. 25 THE COURT: I can't imagine they are going into 1026 1 depreciation schedules. They may not ask her a 2 question. 3 MR. McGOWAN: I hope not. 4 THE COURT: I know what I would ask her and I 5 could ask her in ten minutes. But I tend to be a 6 different type of questioner than some of the 7 lawyers involved in this case. 8 MR. McGOWAN: I think less is more sometimes, 9 but that is -- anyway, I will tender the LMT tax 10 return. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. McGOWAN: And this is for the year 2000, 13 and we'll get the other one if we, indeed, need it. 14 MR. LIROT: Thank you, sir. 15 THE COURT: Let me see a copy of it. Let's 16 see, Mr. Minton, @ on is there more on him or can we 17 delay the rest of it until we get to his testimony? 18 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, just out of an 19 abundance of caution, since we were raising as to 20 item number 6, as long as I'm raising Fifth 21 Amendment privilege, I also wanted to go on record 22 as raising Fifth Amendment privileges to item number 23 6 requesting a copy of any and all bank statements 24 from all banking institutions utilized by Robert 25 Minton for the period of two years prior to the 1027 1 filing of this notice. 2 On the same grounds Mr. Minton intends to raise 3 Fifth Amendment privilege. We have previously 4 stated in our response that it's unduly burdensome 5 and not likely to lead to discovery of admissible 6 evidence. 7 What we failed to note in our written response 8 is that he will also be raising Fifth Amendment 9 privileges at that point. 10 That is all. 11 THE COURT: I think -- and as I said, I don't 12 know what the request to produce -- I haven't really 13 seen it, so maybe if I could -- I have seen the one 14 for Ms. Brooks, but I haven't seen one for 15 Mr. Minton. 16 If I could see it and if I could then see -- is 17 it attached to your response? 18 MR. HOWIE: No, your Honor, it is not. I just 19 assumed it had been filed, but I'm referring to -- 20 THE COURT: It may have been filed, but I don't 21 have it. 22 MR. HOWIE: I'm referring specifically to 23 number 6, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Did you see that number 6? 25 That is the request for bank statements from all 1028 1 banking institutions utilized by Mr. Minton for the 2 period of two years prior to filing of this notice, 3 he plans to take the Fifth Amendment regarding that. 4 MR. LIROT: Judge, I guess we'll have to 5 explore that when he decides to assert the 6 privilege, but we certainly would resubmit our 7 argument as to why we believe these materials would 8 be relevant. I don't know what options are 9 available to the Court. Maybe Mr. Minton's 10 testimony would have to be stricken if he's going to 11 take the Fifth Amendment -- 12 THE COURT: You know, Counsel, I'm always happy 13 to listen to argument. But that is legal argument 14 which I assume you will request at the right time. 15 What they told me now, he's asserting his Fifth 16 Amendment privilege and will not give those up. 17 And, therefore, I would suspect what you need to do 18 is ask your questions, see what happens, and if he 19 asserts the Fifth Amendment privilege, I'll not make 20 him give it up. 21 That would go to his income tax return. I 22 don't think he waived it. I think he has been 23 consistent in claiming his Fifth Amendment. And 24 I'm, frankly, not going to require him to give up a 25 very valuable right available to all citizens of 1029 1 this country, which I assume -- well, it's a 2 available to more than all citizens of this country, 3 but Mr. Minton can be afforded that right. 4 MR. LIROT: Understood, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: May I keep this? 6 MR. HOWIE: It is my only copy, Judge. 7 THE COURT: Is there anything else, Mr. Howie? 8 MR. HOWIE: Nothing further from me, your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: I mean, are there other legal 11 matters? Are you going to produce the rest of what 12 they have asked? 13 MR. HOWIE: I have already provided some copies 14 and I made responses -- non-objection responses to 15 the rest of the items. 16 MR. LIROT: Judge, we are still curious about a 17 draft of any racketeering suit that may have been 18 presented, so apparently there was something 19 floating around. To that extent we are very curious 20 what might have happened to that. I don't know what 21 privilege would apply to that document. 22 THE COURT: It wouldn't be. But @ Mr. Howie 23 hasn't produced it, that means he doesn't have it. 24 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, our written response is 25 clear on that point. 1030 1 THE COURT: Am I right about that? 2 MR. HOWIE: That is correct. 3 THE COURT: You don't have it. You can explore 4 it. If Mr. Minton says otherwise, then you may ask 5 me to ask him, I would say that is relevant. 6 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. 7 THE COURT: But if there isn't one, then there 8 isn't one. 9 MR. LIROT: Understood. 10 Judge, I have just a couple of housekeeping 11 matters. I did manage to copy Exhibit 15, and I 12 have one for the Court and one for the clerk. And 13 since counsel provided -- 14 THE COURT: Did you ask for the copy of the 15 document that was provided by Mr. Rosen in federal 16 court that has the wheel with the spider in the 17 middle and -- 18 MR. LIROT: We think we have that, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. LIROT: We think we obtained that 21 previously. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. LIROT: So we'll ask questions about that. 24 But I have those. And just by way of scheduling, I 25 have a 1 o'clock conference call with a federal 1031 1 judge in Montana today. So if you could perhaps 2 just gear the lunch hour -- 3 THE COURT: If you'll remind me, I'll be happy 4 to. We'll take a 12:30 to 1:30 or something. Will 5 that work? 6 MR. LIROT: That would be great, Judge. I 7 appreciate that. 8 THE COURT: I try to accommodate counsel. I 9 had a call from Judge Beach, Mr. Moxon, maybe you 10 got a call from him. He had his plans, and I 11 suppose he spent his money already, but he had four 12 or five depositions. And I told him I didn't care 13 if you all were going to have enough lawyers to send 14 and do depositions, but I wasn't going to stop the 15 hearing because, frankly, the request was to dismiss 16 the charge and -- not the charge, the case. And if 17 the case were dismissed there was no need for the 18 depositions. So -- 19 MR. LIROT: This is definitely job one, Judge, 20 no doubt about it. 21 THE COURT: So he was going to call Mr. Moxon. 22 Has he called you? 23 MR. MOXON: No, but I'll call him at break, 24 your Honor. In fact -- 25 THE COURT: He was wanting to know if we were 1032 1 still going to be going next week. And I said, "Oh, 2 looks like it." So I would like for you to try to 3 finish up with this witness. 4 MR. LIROT: I'll finish her up -- I'll just 5 have her authenticate documents and I'll ask some 6 following up questions, and I'll do it as quickly as 7 I can. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I have two conflicts 10 tomorrow. I have cleared my calendar for Thursday 11 and Friday. I had other hearings. I actually asked 12 continuances of those. But tomorrow I have two 13 where there are many counsel involved, and I was 14 wondering if we could just have Wednesday off this 15 week and then pick it up Thursday and Friday. I 16 hate to put the Court or any of my colleagues at a 17 disadvantage. 18 THE COURT: I suspect they have things to do. 19 I expect if I gave them a day off, they would fill 20 it up. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not sure where downtown 22 Tampa is anymore. I haven't been there in a while. 23 THE COURT: You are telling me these are not 24 things you can do just in an hour or something like 25 that? 1033 1 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, there is one in the 2 morning in front of Judge Case and one in the 3 afternoon in front of Judge Arnold in Tampa. And 4 they have all -- the one in the afternoon involves 5 several other attorneys, and they may not take more 6 than an hour, but they will be peppered both in the 7 morning and in the afternoon. So I need to get 8 started -- 9 THE COURT: Will it hurt anybody's feelings if 10 I take tomorrow off? Okay, we'll just not be in 11 trial tomorrow. I'm still trying to reach Justice 12 Anstead -- he and I are missing each other -- to see 13 if he really needs me at that meeting on Monday, but 14 I suspect next Monday is out, too. Okay? Are you 15 ready? 16 MR. LIROT: Yes. That is it. 17 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks. 18 Good morning. 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, before we start I 20 would like to clarify something you said. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 THE WITNESS: With regard to my motive, I just 23 want to clarify that I believe my testimony was 24 that -- Mmm -- with regard to any harassment or 25 anything like that from the Church, that I may have 1034 1 felt I was being subjected to, you know, I have been 2 doing this work since 1993. And when we were going 3 through the harassment time line with Mr. Lirot, I 4 think I made it very clear that neither I nor 5 Mr. Minton were intimidated by those actions. It 6 was the concern that we had for the courts and for 7 the actions that the courts might take against us 8 that led to our coming forward. 9 THE COURT: I understand that, ma'am. But I 10 think that the innuendo is clear from counsel that 11 they're going to argue that is not true. They're 12 going to argue by your time line, by Mr. Minton's 13 having had this episode where he was getting all 14 distraught, that it had to do with the other 15 matters, including the harassment. In other words, 16 they quite frankly aren't going to tell me that what 17 you have said is true. 18 THE WITNESS: I understand. I just wanted -- 19 THE COURT: I'm saying that -- I'm suggesting 20 that is what I'm going to hear. I am not saying 21 anything of this I heard is true. Obviously they 22 are quite different allegations as to what is 23 motivating your testimony. Yours, and that 24 coincides with the defendant's, and there is the 25 plaintiff's. And they're very different. 1035 1 And so, trust me, I'm going to hear about the 2 fact that part of your motivation is this -- what in 3 your time line is huge harassment that you have 4 alleged. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes? 6 THE COURT: Despite what you are saying. Okay? 7 So I'm not saying it is true or not, but that is 8 what I am going to hear. So I said that was your 9 motivation. I don't know what your motivation is. 10 I have listened to this testimony and will 11 eventually have to evaluate credibility. 12 All right, Counsel. 13 MR. LIROT: All right. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Ms. Brooks, I want to ask you a few more questions 16 about document retrievals and policies at the LMT. 17 Now, did I ask you if you gave any orders to shred 18 documents? 19 A I don't recall that you did. 20 Q All right. Were there any documents shredded at 21 the LMT at any time? 22 A Yes. 23 Q All right. Do you know what kind of documents 24 were shredded? 25 A Yes. 1036 1 Q All right. Can you tell me what those were? 2 A I received a notice in the mail one day in the 3 summer of 2001, I believe, from Mr. Rosen informing me that 4 the position that the Church of Scientology was taking was 5 that the Lisa McPherson Trust was a successor corporation to 6 FACTNet and, therefore, the Lisa McPherson Trust was -- they 7 would consider that the Lisa McPherson Trust was bound by 8 the -- by the settlement agreement Mr. Minton and I had 9 signed with regard to FACTNet. 10 And that included a -- I don't remember what the 11 term is for when you have to pay money if you violate a 12 settlement agreement. 13 THE COURT: Liquidated damages? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. That we would also be 15 subject to the liquidated damages clause of that 16 settlement if we were found to be in violation of 17 the settlement agreement, which included we were not 18 to have any copies of any copyrighted materials by 19 the Church of Scientology. 20 So I took that to be a precursor to a raid 21 that -- a similar raid that had occurred on FACTNet. 22 And I ordered everyone in the office to shred every 23 copy of any copyrighted material of the Church of 24 Scientology that they might have in their area. 25 And there was quite a bit. And -- 1037 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q FACTNet was the Foundation Against Coercive 3 Tactics, is that what it stood for? 4 A Fight Against Coercive Tactics Network. 5 Q What was this raid you mentioned? What raid 6 occurred on FACTNet? 7 A Mmm, Church of Scientology obtained federal 8 warrants to conduct a raid or a search on the FACTNet office 9 based on their suspicion that FACTNet was in violation of 10 Scientology's copyrights. And, in fact, FACTNet was. 11 Q And you had copyrighted materials at the LMT? 12 A Yes. Very many copies of copyrighted materials. 13 Q And the settlement said you couldn't even have 14 them? 15 A Yes. It did. That is how I understood the 16 settlement agreement to read. Mr. Rosen attached a copy of 17 the settlement agreement to his letter, and I understood the 18 settlement agreement to say that we were not -- that 19 according to the settlement, copies of copyrighted materials 20 would -- could also constitute violation of copyright. 21 Q Is that disseminating them or just having them in 22 a drawer somewhere? 23 A You know, I'm not a copyright attorney and I'm not 24 sure and I didn't want to take any chances. 25 Q Were you and Mr. Minton personally identified in 1038 1 this settlement? 2 A Mmm, no. 3 Q Well, how is it -- you just didn't believe 4 Mr. Rosen that LMT is subject to FACTNet settlement? 5 A I thought in an abundance of caution it would be a 6 good idea to ensure that the LMT was also not in violation 7 of Scientology's copyrights. 8 Q What else was shredded? 9 A Mmm, that was the major shredding project that 10 occurred. Other than that, there were documents that were 11 shredded on a regular basis if they weren't needed. 12 Q Well, what type of documents? Telephone notes? 13 Things like that? I mean, did you do a lot of shredding at 14 the LMT? 15 A Yes, we did quite a bit of shredding. And I think 16 there were probably four shredders in the various offices. 17 Q Why was shredding such a popular activity in the 18 LMT? 19 A I wouldn't characterize it as a popular activity, 20 Mr. Lirot. 21 Q Okay. Well, how many people worked there? 22 A Mmm, eight at one time. 23 Q So that is one shredder for every two people. 24 Yes? Mathematically that seems to work out? 25 A Mathematically, I think your calculation is 1039 1 correct. 2 Q What is it you have to shred all of the time? 3 A Well, for example, I shredded pretty much 4 everything except the wrappers on, you know, a package of 5 paper or whatever. I shredded envelopes, any mail that I 6 got that -- that I wasn't going to keep. 7 Q Is the shredding being done to prevent Scientology 8 from going through your trash or getting these documents and 9 finding people that have come to LMT for help out of your 10 concern they might be harassed? 11 A Yes, in some part. 12 Q Now, did Mr. Minton tell you to shred these 13 materials? Or was that you? 14 A Mmm, I would say that was my decision. 15 Q Okay. Now, were you questioned in your deposition 16 about shredding documents? 17 A Yes. I believe you showed me a document yesterday 18 regarding that. 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I may change gears here. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q I'm going to show you what we'll have marked and 22 would like to introduce as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 16. 23 And this appears to be -- it is titled Minton Controls and 24 Finances. 25 MR. LIROT: And I have a copy for you, Judge. 1040 1 THE COURT: Is that an Exhibit Number? 2 MR. LIROT: Yes, this is Exhibit Number 16. 3 THE COURT: Thank you. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Do you recognize this document? 6 A Yes. This is the document that the judge referred 7 to as the spider web. 8 THE COURT: That is the one Mr. Minton referred 9 to, as I recall. He was in the middle and -- 10 THE WITNESS: He's the spider. 11 THE COURT: He's the spider. Right. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q All right. And where did you first see this 14 document? 15 A In a hearing in a federal court in the Tampa area 16 when Mr. Rosen submitted it in a court case concerning Grady 17 Ward's bankruptcy. 18 THE COURT: Who submitted this, Mr. Rosen? 19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Rosen. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Did this document find its way into the meeting on 22 the 28th or 29th or any of the subsequent meetings you had 23 with Scientology to work out this global settlement that you 24 have testified to? 25 A That is not my testimony. We weren't working out 1041 1 a global settlement. 2 Q Okay. Did this document come up at any of the 3 meetings that you had with Scientology since March 28th? 4 A No. 5 Q Not at all? Now -- 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, did you answer that? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. "No." 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Now, this document was presented in one context. 10 You said it was in Grady Ward's bankruptcy hearing. Did 11 Mr. Rosen just come up and hand it to you? Was it entered 12 into evidence in court? How did you come to be aware of 13 this document? 14 A Which of those questions do you want me to answer? 15 Q How did you become aware of this document? 16 A Mr. Rosen submitted it in court. 17 Q And he submitted it as an exhibit? 18 A I believe so. 19 Q All right. Were you in the court hearing when it 20 was submitted? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who was Grady Ward? 23 A Grady Ward is someone who has been a critic of 24 Scientology and has been in litigation with Scientology. 25 Q Okay. In what way? Was he -- did he sue 1042 1 Scientology? Or did Scientology sue him? 2 A I believe Scientology sued him. 3 Q Okay. And for what? 4 A I'm not sure. 5 Q Okay. Well, what was Mr. Minton's relationship 6 with Grady Ward? 7 A What was his relationship? He was a friend. 8 Q Okay. Did he help Mr. Ward in defending the 9 litigation? 10 A He provided funding for it. Yes. 11 Q And I -- did he violate some settlement agreement? 12 I still don't know what the cause of action was between 13 Scientology and Grady Ward. 14 A Well, I can tell you what I do know. 15 Q Okay. 16 A There was some sort of settlement that was 17 reached. I'm not -- I'm not really sure what the litigation 18 was about, to be honest. But a settlement was reached. And 19 then there was an allegation that Mr. Ward had violated the 20 settlement. 21 I don't know that that was ever -- that a judgment 22 was ever made on that one way or the other. 23 Q Did Grady Ward work at the LMT? 24 A Yes. 25 Q For how long? 1043 1 A A year and a half. 2 Q What were his responsibilities? 3 A Mmm, as I said yesterday, he was responsible for 4 computer security. And security in the offices. 5 Q Did he ever counsel people that came in and said 6 that they were discontent with Scientology? 7 A No. 8 Q I see the next one, and I'll go around the wheel 9 here, clockwise. 10 The next one is Larry Wollersheim. And as I 11 understand it, he recently settled his case with 12 Scientology. 13 MR. McGOWAN: Is that a question? 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Do you understand that to be true? 16 A Mmm, I -- I understand that there is some sort of 17 resolution of the Wollersheim case, either that has happened 18 or is in progress. 19 Q Okay. Did you know Mr. Wollersheim personally? 20 A Yes. 21 Q For how long? 22 A Mmm, probably from 1995. 23 Q Okay. And what, to your knowledge, was 24 Mr. Wollersheim's case with Scientology? 25 A Mmm, I believe in 1984, sometime in the early 1044 1 '80s, Mr. Wollersheim sued Scientology -- 2 MR. FUGATE: I'll object to relevance, your 3 Honor, to this proceeding. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 A Mmm, for intentional infliction of emotional 6 distress, I think. And he won a judgment. And there have 7 been various attempts on the part of Wollersheim to collect 8 and on the part of Scientology to pay him, as I understand 9 it. And finally I believe Scientology is -- has now paid 10 money into the court to resolve that case. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Did you file any declarations in Mr. Wollersheim's 13 case? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What about Gerry Armstrong? What was his 16 relationship with Mr. Minton? 17 THE COURT: I have a question just because of 18 something that has been raised, and I don't know if 19 you are going to get there or not, but I have a 20 question. 21 Did you attempt to withdraw your declaration in 22 the Larry Wollersheim case around the same time that 23 the discussions were occurring with the defendant, 24 the Church, in this case? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 1045 1 THE COURT: Okay. Why did you do that? I 2 mean, maybe you don't want me to ask that. I want 3 to know. The hearing is in front of me so I am 4 asking. 5 THE WITNESS: That is okay. I don't mind. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: Because I knew that we were 8 now -- we had initiated settlement. I knew that I 9 wanted to withdraw from litigation, generally, with 10 regard to Scientology. That is the only other case 11 that is still active in any way utilizing testimony 12 from me. 13 THE COURT: Did that case and this case -- you 14 were trying to withdraw from both cases? 15 THE WITNESS: That is it. Yes. 16 THE COURT: So it wasn't -- I don't know what 17 you submitted, I don't think. Was it the affidavit 18 I saw the other day? The declaration, was that the 19 affidavit? 20 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure which one you mean. 21 It was -- it was a 1997 declaration. And what was 22 happening was Mr. Leipold was -- I think it was a 23 proffer that he was making to the Court -- 24 THE COURT: I think this is the one that was 25 provided to me, and it's in evidence in this case. 1046 1 This is a declaration dated December 14, 1994. 2 THE WITNESS: No. It's not this one. 3 THE COURT: So that is not the one. Some other 4 declaration? 5 THE WITNESS: It's some other declaration. 6 Apparently it's a 1997 declaration. 7 But it had already been filed. And then I 8 understood that Mr. Leipold was going to proffer my 9 declaration to the Court for some reason. And I 10 asked him not to proffer. 11 THE COURT: And it's my understanding he 12 refused to do that? 13 THE WITNESS: He proffered it regardless of my 14 request. 15 THE COURT: Some disagreement as to whether it 16 had already been done or not, as I recall from the 17 documents that have been submitted? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 19 THE COURT: In any event, the request was that 20 he withdraw it if it had been filed. He refused to 21 do that, said he couldn't do that to his client or 22 something? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 THE COURT: You weren't trying to withdraw it 25 because it was false; you were trying to withdraw it 1047 1 because you didn't want to be filing affidavits 2 against the Church and trying to settle at the same 3 time? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. And also 5 because I had had my attorney review the declaration 6 and he had said that -- Mmm -- he was very surprised 7 that the declaration -- I'm not supposed -- 8 MR. McGOWAN: Privilege, your Honor. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, after consultation with my 10 attorney, I had -- I felt that there might be things 11 in the declaration that -- Mmm -- 12 THE COURT: You really better be careful 13 because you start talking about things, you may 14 waive the privilege. He asserted it, suggested 15 maybe you might want to assert it, so we'll let that 16 go. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 THE COURT: You didn't withdraw it because it 19 was false; you didn't say, "I lied in that 20 declaration, I could be charged with perjury" or 21 anything like that. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't do that, but I said 23 there were things in the declaration that I wouldn't 24 be able to substantiate and that I didn't have 25 personal knowledge of. 1048 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q As far as Gerry Armstrong, he's the next person. 4 What was his relationship with Mr. Minton? 5 A Mmm, Mr. Minton had sent him money for support, 6 and Mr. Armstrong had used quite a bit of that money to file 7 a lawsuit against Scientology. 8 Q Wasn't he named as a defendant in a suit where the 9 Scientologists sued him, apparently? 10 A You mean the recent suit? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I believe you were given a copy of that suit. 13 Q Right. 14 A I believe it speaks for itself. 15 Q How many suits are involving Mr. Armstrong and the 16 Church? 17 A That is the only one I know. 18 Q Just the most recent one? 19 A Well, there have been earlier ones that they have 20 settled. 21 Q Okay. And but what was his relationship with the 22 Church? 23 A He's a former Scientologist who is very 24 disaffected. 25 Q Okay. 1049 1 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 2 THE WITNESS: Very disaffected. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q What was it that brought him into court with 5 Scientology, other than being disaffected? 6 THE COURT: What is the relevance of that? 7 MR. LIROT: Judge, what I'm trying to find out 8 is on what basis does Mr. Rosen use this in court 9 and what is the concern with these people. And I 10 think what we're going to establish here is most of 11 these people, rather than being offensive or 12 plaintiffs against Scientology, most of them are 13 defendants which are trying to defend themselves in 14 lawsuits which are brought by the Church. 15 THE COURT: Okay. I'll allow it. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q What was Mr. Armstrong's beef with Scientology, if 18 I can frame it that way? 19 A Mmm, well, there is quite a history. Originally, 20 he left Scientology in '81. He took a lot of documents -- 21 copies of a lot of documents with him. Church sued him for 22 theft of documents. They lost that suit. 23 I believe Mr. Armstrong then sued them. And I 24 believe that it was his lawsuit against Scientology that was 25 the subject of his settlement which I believe was in 1986. 1050 1 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor, my teeth are 2 chattering. 3 THE COURT: Do you want some coffee? I think 4 we have coffee. 5 THE WITNESS: I think that would make it worse. 6 Could we take a little break? 7 THE COURT: All right. We can do that. We'll 8 be in recess for fifteen minutes. 9 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 10 _______________________________________ 11 THE COURT: All right, you may continue. 12 BY MR LIROT: 13 Q Ms. Brooks, I think when we left off we were 14 talking about Gerry Armstrong and what action he had with 15 the Church. 16 A I believe I answered that question. 17 Q Well, I don't recall your answer, if you can 18 repeat it for me. I'm sorry. 19 THE COURT: I think she answered it. Didn't 20 she? 21 MR. McGOWAN: She did, your Honor. 22 BY MR LIROT: 23 Q Do you know what the status of Mr. Armstrong's 24 present case is? Has he filed an answer or anything? Do 25 you know where that is at? 1051 1 A I have no idea. 2 THE COURT: Look, there is a suit that has been 3 filed against Mr. Armstrong, LMT, I believe, or 4 perhaps this witness and Mr. Minton. We're all 5 aware of that. 6 MR LIROT: Yes. 7 THE COURT: In that suit, which I have read, 8 they discuss some suits that Scientology had against 9 Mr. Armstrong and judgments that the court 10 apparently has imposed for contempt, and this is 11 another whatever it is, it speaks for itself. 12 Apparently he's on the lamb or he moved out of 13 the country, and there are contempt -- another 14 contempt being considered by the Court. I mean, 15 what is it else we need to know? That is a matter 16 of record. It has been filed, I think, as an 17 exhibit in this case. 18 MR LIROT: It has, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Is there more than that? 20 MR LIROT: No. I'll move along. 21 BY MR LIROT: 22 Q The next name we see here is Jesse Prince. Why is 23 Mr. Prince involved in this wheel? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. 25 MR. McGOWAN: Objection. 1052 1 THE COURT: Yes, unless she knows. Do you 2 understand this wheel? 3 THE WITNESS: Mmm, your Honor, I understand 4 that this is a drawing of people that Mr. Minton has 5 helped financially. 6 THE COURT: You understand -- well, maybe you 7 don't. Mr. Minton has seen this. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: And Mr. Minton has called this 10 something. At least he called it something I have 11 read. What does he call it to you? 12 THE WITNESS: Mmm, an enterprise chart that -- 13 THE COURT: What does the word "enterprise" 14 signify to you? 15 THE WITNESS: RICO. 16 THE COURT: RICO, racketeering. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Being an enterprise, and that there 19 is some illegal activities going on, presumably. I 20 don't know if I could even define RICO to you. 21 Whenever I read it to a jury I'm thinking, "Oh, my 22 God, if they understand it, it's remarkable." 23 But you know it's a crime. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: And so Mr. Minton apparently is in 1053 1 the middle here, and there is some allegation, and 2 he understands it as an enterprise. 3 So I guess the question really is what would 4 Mr. Prince's connection be, if you know, to whatever 5 this is all about? 6 THE WITNESS: Mmm, your Honor -- 7 THE COURT: Is that what you are trying to get 8 at? 9 MR LIROT: Yes, Judge. 10 THE WITNESS: What I -- I can tell you what I 11 know, which is Mr. Minton has supported Jesse Prince 12 since the summer of 1998. 13 BY MR LIROT: 14 Q Why would that be problematic as far as 15 racketeering concerns? 16 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, objection, this is 17 outside of her knowledge. 18 THE COURT: I think that is true. I think the 19 problem we have here is that this is something that 20 if she knows what Mr. Minton's concern is about it, 21 then I think she can answer that. If she doesn't, I 22 think we'll have to wait for Mr. Minton. 23 THE WITNESS: Mr. Minton doesn't have a concern 24 about this. 25 1054 1 BY MR LIROT: 2 Q Okay. Well, isn't it true that Mr. Minton funded 3 a criminal case involving Mr. Prince? 4 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, this has been asked 5 and answered at least a dozen times. 6 THE COURT: I don't know if that has or not, to 7 be honest with you, so I'll allow that to be asked. 8 BY MR LIROT: 9 Q Didn't he pay for Mr. Prince's criminal defense -- 10 THE COURT: I have seen it. I saw it in 11 something just -- 12 THE WITNESS: I testified to it, too, your 13 Honor. 14 THE COURT: The affidavit. 15 THE WITNESS: I have testified to it. 16 THE COURT: If you testified to it, then you 17 don't have to repeat it. Even I forgot, it has been 18 so long. 19 THE WITNESS: I understand. 20 THE COURT: So if I say I don't think I have 21 heard it, that doesn't mean you haven't said it; it 22 just simply means it has been a long number of days 23 and -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: -- I can't remember everything you 1055 1 said. You would remember better than I would, I'm 2 sure. 3 BY MR LIROT: 4 Q Vaughn Young's name is on there. Why would his 5 name be on there, do you know? 6 MR. McGOWAN: Again, over and over again, we 7 have some chart that Mr. Rosen who is somewhat 8 flamboyant in his presentations put up in federal 9 court someplace. Why he put it there is -- is 10 something outside of this witness's knowledge. 11 MR LIROT: Judge, I want to know what her 12 knowledge is as to these people that are identified, 13 what she knows about them and why she thinks they 14 would be on this chart. 15 MR. McGOWAN: That is calling for speculation. 16 If he wants to know who these people are, I think 17 we've been around this -- 18 THE COURT: I tell you what I'm going to do. 19 I'm going to suggest she knows these people, and if 20 there are any of them she doesn't know, she can tell 21 us. And so she would probably know the same thing 22 about any moneys provided by Mr. Minton. Why don't 23 you save it for him? 24 I mean, do you know these people? I have heard 25 about most all of these people myself. 1056 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I know these 2 people. 3 THE COURT: These are all people -- maybe I'm 4 wrong. Are these all people that are perceived -- 5 people or corporations like FACTNet, LMT, that are 6 perceived to be -- I hate to use the word "enemies," 7 but whatever word you might want to use it of the 8 opposition to the Church? 9 THE WITNESS: Anti-Scientologists. 10 THE COURT: Anti-Scientology people? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: Either anti-Scientology people, or 13 anti-Scientology companies like -- 14 THE WITNESS: Correct. 15 THE COURT: -- like LMT, FACTNet. There is one 16 here that I don't think I have heard about, and that 17 is Courage Productions. I don't know what that is. 18 Could you tell me that? Because I know myself and 19 can deal with this. 20 THE WITNESS: Courage Productions is a company 21 that Mr. Minton owns the majority, 50 percent, of; 22 and two other people, Peter Alexander, Patricia 23 Greenway, some amounts of each. I don't know what 24 their amounts are each that they own, but it's the 25 company that was created to make that film, 1057 1 "Prophet." 2 THE COURT: Then I know what that is about. So 3 we know -- we all know what this is and you can 4 refer to it in argument. What exactly is it that 5 you want this woman to testify about? 6 MR LIROT: Just what she knew about this 7 document and what she understood it to represent, 8 Judge. So I think that has been established at this 9 point. 10 I just have -- obviously -- I don't know who 11 Dennis Erlich is. That's a new one. 12 BY MR LIROT: 13 Q Who is Dennis Erlich and why is he on this chart, 14 if you know? 15 A Dennis Erlich is a former Scientologist. Why he's 16 on this chart, I don't -- 17 THE COURT: Did Mr. Minton provide him money? 18 THE WITNESS: I think Mr. Minton provided him 19 with a small amount of money. 20 THE COURT: Is it assumed, since all these -- 21 these are all around Bob Minton, are all these 22 dollars, is it assumed Mr. Minton in one way or 23 another provided funds of some sort to all these 24 people? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, that is what I think this 1058 1 chart represents, is that people that either -- that 2 Mr. Minton either has given money to or that 3 Scientology thought he had given money to. 4 THE COURT: I suppose -- and nobody will agree 5 with me on this -- but I suppose racketeering says 6 you take illegal money and put it into -- you 7 launder it through a legal source, perhaps. I don't 8 know if that is it or not. 9 THE WITNESS: Is that what it is? 10 THE COURT: Yes, in other words, if you have 11 got some illegally obtained money, such as the 12 allegations of some illegal money coming out of 13 Nigeria -- 14 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh? 15 THE COURT: -- and you launder it through 16 something that is legitimate, legal, sort of -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: It could be the other way, too. 18 Take legitimate funds and use it for illegal 19 purposes. 20 THE COURT: That is right. Take legal money, 21 put it out for illegal purposes or take illegal 22 money and put it out for legitimate purposes, and 23 either of those can amount to a racketeering charge. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Or you can take illegal money 25 and use it for illegal purposes and that could be 1059 1 racketeering. 2 MR. DANDAR: Or not have any money at all. 3 THE COURT: But a racketeering -- normally when 4 you use the word "enterprise," you think 5 racketeering. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I wasn't real clear on what 7 that meant. But -- but in any case, what Mr. Rosen 8 was bringing it up for in that particular hearing 9 wasn't that. He was bringing it up in that 10 particular hearing -- 11 THE COURT: What was the hearing? What was 12 going on? 13 THE WITNESS: It was about trying to collect on 14 the -- what is that thing called when you -- Mmm, 15 when you violate your settlement? There is 16 something kind of judgment? 17 THE COURT: Liquidated damages? 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Liquidated damages. The 19 hearing was about the liquidated damages that 20 Scientology wanted to go after Mr. Ward for based on 21 their allegation that he had -- Mmm -- violated the 22 settlement agreement. 23 And the purpose of this, as I understood it, 24 why Mr. Rosen was bringing this up, was to try to 25 convince the court to let them go after the money -- 1060 1 go -- go to Mr. Minton for the money since Grady 2 Ward didn't have the money. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: So ... 5 THE COURT: But Mr. Minton has referred to this 6 as an enterprise chart with him in the middle and 7 the -- the spider in the middle and all of the arms 8 going out. 9 THE WITNESS: Right. 10 THE COURT: So clearly he understood this was 11 in some fashion, in his mind, being used as a 12 suggestion of racketeering? 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 MR LIROT: Judge, could I ask for continued 15 permission to approach the witness with something in 16 my hand? 17 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 18 BY MR LIROT: 19 Q Ms. Brooks, I think you earlier testified that you 20 were the one that maintained the LMT website? 21 A Are we done with this now (indicating)? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Excuse me, what did you say? 24 Q You testified that you helped maintain the LMT 25 website. Is that correct? 1061 1 A No. 2 Q All right. So -- 3 A I don't know how to maintain a website. 4 Q Well, you had some declarations posted on the 5 website. Is that correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q All right. I'm going to hand you one that is 8 dated September 9, 1993. And I think on the website it was 9 entitled "Stacy Brooks' Declarations." Does that look to 10 be -- under the heading Scientology versus Fishman dated 11 September 9, 1993. 12 Does that look to be -- there are many copies 13 there. I'll just give you the one. I'll hand it back to 14 you. 15 MR LIROT: Judge, we're going to want to 16 introduce this as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 17. 17 THE COURT: All right. Do you have copies for 18 everybody? 19 MR LIROT: Yes, we do, Judge. 20 THE COURT: Well, here is one with holes in it. 21 Is there a notebook? 22 MR LIROT: Judge, we had them three-hole 23 punched and took them out. We'll put it in a 24 notebook if you want us to. 25 THE COURT: No, I was just being a little 1062 1 facetious. I'm sorry. 2 THE WITNESS: This isn't a Fishman affidavit. 3 BY MR LIROT: 4 Q Do you know what affidavit it is? 5 A Or declaration? 6 Q Do you know what affidavit? 7 A It likes like a declaration in the Sterling case 8 written for Dan Leipold. 9 Q But is it your declaration? 10 A Yes. 11 Q All right. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, the one we have is 13 not executed. Is there an executed copy somewhere? 14 MR LIROT: Judge, we took these off the 15 Internet, and they were represented on the Internet 16 to be the declarations of Stacy Brooks. 17 THE COURT: I think she can tell us if she 18 executed it. If she did, the fact we don't have a 19 signed copy is not of import. 20 MR. WEINBERG: It just came off the Internet? 21 So this is where they got it? 22 MR LIROT: Yes. 23 THE COURT: I mean, if this is a declaration is 24 what he's asking her. 25 MR LIROT: If it's her declaration. 1063 1 THE COURT: If she submitted this as a 2 declaration similar to an affidavit in another case, 3 and she indicated that she had. 4 MR LIROT: That is correct. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't believe it was executed 6 for the Sterling case. 7 BY MR LIROT: 8 Q Let me hand you one -- 9 THE COURT: You are moving to introduce it 10 then? 11 MR LIROT: I am moving to introduce it. 12 THE COURT: Any objection? 13 MR. FUGATE: No. 14 THE COURT: It will be received then. 15 BY MR LIROT: 16 Q Ms. Young, this is a November 23, 1993 declaration 17 that we got off the LMT website. 18 MR LIROT: And, Judge, I want to move this as 19 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 18. November 23rd, 1993. 20 THE COURT: Any objection? 21 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, is this for the 22 purpose of authenticating that this stuff came off 23 the website? 24 THE COURT: The purpose of this, I'm sure, is 25 to say is this true or is it a false declaration. 1064 1 MR. McGOWAN: Well, then that is not best 2 evidence. That is something off a website. I think 3 she can say this came off a website. But unless she 4 has the actual declaration next to it, I mean, she 5 would have to go through it word for word. If she 6 pulled it off the website and the website said that 7 is a declaration, and she said that is her 8 declaration, that is one thing. 9 THE COURT: Well, you know, the truth of the 10 matter is if we find out where it is, we can go to 11 all of the trouble, I suppose, of having to go out 12 there and ask the Court to send us one and certify 13 it and the whole person. 14 The best person who would know if this is her 15 declaration is the witness. If she can tell us it 16 is, that's good enough. If she can't, then it can't 17 come in as a declaration and they'll have to get it 18 from the Court file. 19 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, what I can tell 20 you is I believe this is somewhat similar to a 21 declaration that I filed. But it's not -- it is 22 not -- I mean, there are many, many -- what it looks 23 like happened is that this was scanned and that it 24 wasn't ever corrected. You know how when you scan a 25 document, it gets goofed up? 1065 1 THE COURT: Right. You're talking now about 2 the same thing that you referred to in the 3 declaration that has already been introduced that 4 has kind of misspellings and some bad grammar and 5 some stuff that doesn't make any sense, as far as -- 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 7 THE COURT: -- spellings and things? 8 THE WITNESS: Spellings, and -- so I can say 9 that this is similar to a declaration that I filed, 10 but this is definitely not the declaration that I 11 filed. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, would that be also 13 for 17, as well? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. Well, the one right 15 before that? If it was 17, yes. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 17 THE COURT: Other than the misspellings and 18 this type of thing, are these the declarations? 19 THE WITNESS: Mmm, let me just finish looking 20 through it for a second. 21 THE COURT: Sure. 22 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, let me just record an 23 objection if I may. I'm just getting these handed 24 to me and I haven't finished reading 17 and I 25 haven't gotten to 18. And the only -- I understood 1066 1 the Court wanted all of the declarations that she 2 has filed. I have no problem with that. 3 But as to whether or not -- 4 THE COURT: No, I didn't ask for all of the 5 declarations she filed. 6 MR. FUGATE: Oh, I thought you did. 7 THE COURT: I asked for the affidavits she 8 filed in this case. 9 MR. FUGATE: Okay. I'm sorry. I apologize, 10 Judge, I misheard that. But the point I want to 11 make here -- 12 THE COURT: This case, meaning our case, I 13 understood from reading whatever I was asked to read 14 that she had filed three affidavits. And I wanted 15 them. And I have now received them. 16 MR. FUGATE: All right. 17 THE COURT: This is being introduced into this 18 case -- I mean, this hearing -- 19 MR. FUGATE: Well, the Court made a comment a 20 moment ago, I assume they are introducing them 21 because they are going to ask if these are true. I 22 haven't even had a chance to read them. I don't 23 know if they are accurate. I don't know if I'll be 24 cross-examining on them, if that is the purpose they 25 are being introduced for, but I'll have to have time 1067 1 to do that because I was looking at what you said 2 yesterday, which was the affidavits that pertained 3 to the case. So that is my objection to them being 4 admitted unless there is some -- 5 THE COURT: Your objection is overruled. These 6 are declarations filed under oath. She said she 7 committed perjury in this case. I think this Court 8 needs to know whether she committed perjury or 9 whether these are true affidavits. She signed them 10 under oath. I think that is the purpose for which 11 he's introducing them. If there is some other 12 purpose, let me know. Is that what you're 13 introducing them for? 14 MR LIROT: Exactly correct, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Then we need to know whether it is 16 false or true. It is relevant for this proceeding. 17 Your objection is overruled. All we need to know 18 is, other than misspelled words, this is a 19 declaration or whether there is a need to go to the 20 court where it has been filed and get the 21 certificate from the clerk and bring those 22 declarations here, in which case we would have to 23 bring Ms. Brooks back. 24 MR LIROT: Understood. 25 1068 1 BY MR LIROT: 2 Q Ms. Brooks, I'm -- this one actually has a caption 3 dated January 3, 1994, and it looks to be church versus 4 Fishman. 5 MR LIROT: Judge, we would like to introduce in 6 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 19. 7 THE COURT: You can't introduce them unless she 8 authenticates them. In other words, if these were 9 declarations she filed in the court proceedings, 10 which we understand declarations, I didn't know 11 before this hearing a declaration is the same as our 12 affidavit which is an under-oath filing. 13 THE WITNESS: I think the difference is that a 14 declaration doesn't have to be notarized. 15 THE COURT: But it -- 16 THE WITNESS: But it's under oath. 17 THE COURT: It still needs to be under oath. 18 MR. DANDAR: The Florida Statutes provide for 19 declarations, as well. 20 THE COURT: Does it? I'm just used to 21 affidavits, I guess. 22 MR. DANDAR: To my surprise, yes. 23 BY MR LIROT: 24 Q Again, with your statements about misspellings and 25 perhaps some problems with scanning the documents, does this 1069 1 look to be the declaration that you filed in this case that 2 was identified on the LMT website? 3 A Just one minute. 4 MR. FUGATE: I impose the same objections. 5 She's obviously not reading them, and if that is the 6 purpose they are introducing them for, I think she 7 has to read and authenticate them. 8 THE COURT: I agree with that, and I think if 9 she would like to say she would like to have time to 10 look at these, I will give her that time. She can 11 take the lunch hour or whatever to look at them to 12 see if the only problem with them are the 13 misspellings or whatever. I think that is fair. 14 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I think that would be good. 15 But I don't want to slow this process down. So if 16 you would be willing to let me review them at 17 lunch -- 18 MR LIROT: That will be fine. 19 THE WITNESS: Then move on to something else. 20 But I don't want to now waste another hour and a 21 half of your time. 22 MR LIROT: Well, then, Judge, let us mark them 23 then and tender them and she can review them over 24 lurch hour. 25 MR. McGOWAN: Fine. 1070 1 THE COURT: Fine. Give them to the clerk so 2 they are all to be marked, and if they are to be 3 authenticated -- well, maybe we can just ask this. 4 Have you ever filed a false affidavit or declaration 5 that you know of? 6 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 7 MR LIROT: Then, Judge, I think certainly these 8 are relevant as either a prior consistent statement 9 or a prior inconsistent statement. 10 THE COURT: Counselor, I have already indicated 11 they are admissible. However, we're going to have 12 to let her have the opportunity to see if this is, 13 in fact, what she filed. These are -- I mean, these 14 are the kind of things I take home at night and read 15 because they're too lengthy. 16 MR LIROT: Understood, Judge. 17 THE COURT: I don't want this woman to say, 18 yes, this is it and it's true, then find out six 19 weeks down the road that here is a page that is 20 absolutely not a part of her affidavit, she never 21 submitted it. It's not fair to her, to me, to you 22 all, to the Church or anybody. 23 MR LIROT: We're not going to quibble with 24 that, Judge. 25 THE COURT: If that is the purpose, then I can 1071 1 presume we can let her read them at the lunch hour. 2 In the interim, if there is some specific thing you 3 want to ask about any one of them, you can ask. I 4 hope we're not going through these paragraph by 5 paragraph. 6 MR LIROT: No, Judge. I just want to 7 authenticate these. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR LIROT: All right? 10 THE COURT: So you may have the lunch, take it 11 with you. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you, your Honor. We 13 can go on to other things in the meantime? 14 THE COURT: I hope so. 15 MR LIROT: I marked this as Exhibit 20. 16 BY MR LIROT: 17 Q This is your January 8, 1994 -- what appears to be 18 your January 8, 1994 declaration. 19 A And the same thing holds true for this? 20 Q Yes. 21 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, could we get the 22 whole file? I imagine there are a number -- 23 THE COURT: Yes, if you have more, let's have 24 them all. She can look at them overnight if they 25 are too big. 1072 1 MR LIROT: A lot of declarations, Judge. 2 THE COURT: Let's do them all. Give her the 3 whole pile. 4 MR. DANDAR: You have to announce which ones. 5 THE COURT: I know. 6 MR LIROT: Why don't I approach the witness and 7 give them all and I'll try to distribute these 8 efficiently, Judge. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR LIROT: We would like this marked as 21. 11 This is February 3rd, 1994. 12 THE COURT: Is this the fourth one? 13 MR LIROT: Judge, I'll make you -- I'll key 14 which ones they are. 15 MR. WEINBERG: This is the fifth one. 16 THE COURT: I lost one. 17 MR. WEINBERG: 9/9/93. 17, 9/18 -- 18 THE COURT: Wait. Wait. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 20 THE COURT: Wait, Counsel. 9/9/93 was the 21 first one. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, that is 17. 23 THE COURT: Next. 24 MR. WEINBERG: 9/18/93. 25 THE COURT: That is the one I know you gave it 1073 1 to me but I cannot find it. 2 MR. DANDAR: That was November 23rd. 3 November 23rd, 1993 is 18. 4 MR. WEINBERG: All right. So it is 9/23/93. 5 THE COURT: 11/23. 6 MR. WEINBERG: 9/23. 7 MR. DANDAR: 11/23. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, 11/23. 9 THE COURT: 11/23/93 is next. 10 MR. WEINBERG: 1/3/94. 11 THE COURT: Got that. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Then -- 13 THE COURT: 1/8/94. I have them all then. 14 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 15 THE COURT: This one will be the fifth one. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 17 BY MR LIROT: 18 Q This is February 3rd, 1994. This is February 21, 19 1994. It appears to be a declaration of Stacy Brooks Young. 20 THE COURT: Do you know what case that was used 21 in? 22 THE WITNESS: Mmm, let me just look at it for a 23 minute, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, well, it says -- let's see -- 1074 1 this is in the Fishman case. 2 THE COURT: Fishman? 3 THE WITNESS: It says so in the second 4 paragraph. 5 THE COURT: Do I have that, Counselor? 6 MR LIROT: Judge, I'm actually breaking these 7 up. I'll write the numbers on them so we keep them 8 in order. 9 THE COURT: Good. 10 BY MR LIROT: 11 Q All right, this is the March 9, 1994 appears to be 12 declaration of you, Ms. Young. 13 THE WITNESS: This is also in the Fishman case, 14 your Honor. 15 MR LIROT: This is March 22nd, 1994. This 16 appears to be in the Fishman case, as well, there is 17 a caption on this March 22nd, 1994. 18 This is December 14, 1994. 19 Judge, we've already entered this one in. She 20 already authenticated the December 14, 1994 one. 21 THE WITNESS: When did I do that? 22 THE COURT: One of the first days. I have got 23 it right here. 24 THE WITNESS: But, your Honor, if it came off 25 the Internet, I wish I would still be allowed to 1075 1 have a chance to look it over. 2 THE COURT: Okay. I think you already did. I 3 mean, I think he went over this one in some detail 4 with you. 5 THE WITNESS: Really? 6 MR LIROT: I believe so. 7 THE COURT: This was the one you indicated was 8 true but there was a slant on some things in favor 9 of the -- 10 THE WITNESS: I don't remember it exactly. 11 Okay. 12 MR. WEINBERG: So that has already been marked 13 so we're not putting a new number on it? 14 MR LIROT: No, we are not. We are leaving that 15 one out for now. 16 THE WITNESS: But could I have a copy just to 17 look at it? 18 MR LIROT: If you would like a copy, I'll give 19 you a copy. 20 MR. FUGATE: Just for my records, what number 21 did it come in as then? 22 MR. McGOWAN: 24. 23 THE COURT: No, it came in earlier, like an 24 earlier number. 25 MR. FUGATE: Could I just approach the clerk? 1076 1 THE COURT: Sure. 2 Give her a copy of it. 3 MR LIROT: Sure. 4 THE COURT: I don't need a copy of it. And you 5 all -- 6 THE WITNESS: You gave me two. 7 MR LIROT: Did I? I'm sorry. Sorry about 8 that. 9 THE COURT: What number was it? 10 MR. FUGATE: 14. 11 THE CLERK: 14, Judge. 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, this is the -- 13 THE COURT: I totally lost any numbering system 14 I ever have. I have no idea what is any number. 15 BY MR LIROT: 16 Q This one appears to be Kisser versus Chicago 17 Crusader dated December 1, 1994. 18 (A discussion was held off the record.) 19 BY MR LIROT: 20 Q All right. This one just has a date of 21 September 1994 and heading declaration of Stacy Brooks. 22 MR. McGOWAN: This one is 26? 25? 23 MR. DANDAR: 25. 24 MR. WEINBERG: I thought 11/1/94 was 25. 25 THE COURT: Where are these things posted? 1077 1 MR LIROT: They are on the LMT website under 2 "Stacy Brooks Declarations." 3 THE COURT: Is that still up and running? 4 MR LIROT: I think it's down now, Judge. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry to interrupt. I 7 thought I heard 11/1/94, the Kisser thing, was 25. 8 Right? 9 MR. DANDAR: Right. 10 MR. WEINBERG: What you just showed her was 26? 11 September of '94? 12 MR. DANDAR: That is 26. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Is there a more specific date? 14 MR LIROT: No, heading just says 15 September 1994. I don't have a specific date on 16 that. 17 MR. WEINBERG: So that is 26? 18 MR LIROT: Correct. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 20 BY MR LIROT: 21 Q This is another document declaration of Stacy 22 Brooks Young March 13, 1997. 23 This is another one, a document that -- 24 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, could Counsel please 25 give the number so that we can keep track of this? 1078 1 Because he just keeps saying, this, this and this 2 and it will not make a record. 3 MR LIROT: That was 27. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 MR LIROT: All right? 6 BY MR LIROT: 7 Q This will be Number 28, declaration of Stacy 8 Brooks June 12, 1999. 9 THE COURT: Are we finding out what -- what 10 cases these had to do with? 11 THE WITNESS: I'm -- I'm not able to identify 12 some of them, your Honor, as far as what case they 13 were filed in. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR LIROT: Judge, I believe on the website it 16 identifies what case they are in, so once she looked 17 at them, if she doesn't have the information she 18 needs, we might be able to refresh her memory with 19 the designations on the website because it indicates 20 what case they were involving. 21 THE COURT: I thought the website wasn't up and 22 running? 23 MR. DANDAR: It is. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. DANDAR: It switched Internet service 1079 1 providers, apparently. 2 BY MR LIROT: 3 Q This last one just says, "Declaration of Stacy 4 Brooks on DM." I hand you that. It doesn't appear to have 5 a date in the heading. 6 A Well -- 7 THE COURT: DM -- versus DM? 8 BY MR LIROT: 9 Q It says, "Declaration of Stacy Brooks on DM." 10 A There is no signature line or anything on this. 11 THE COURT: Just for now, just take them -- 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 THE COURT: She'll not be able to review all 14 those at lunch. 15 MR LIROT: I understand, Judge. 16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm a little lost here. If 17 they're going to be offered as true, I guess that 18 means we're going to have to go through them 19 ourselves and then decide if we are going to 20 cross-examine if we believe anything is false in 21 them? 22 I mean, I would object to them as being 23 irrelevant and nothing collateral to the matter 24 because they are not an issue in this case, as I 25 understand it. 1080 1 THE COURT: Anything that this lady has lied 2 about in any other cases at issue, if she filed 3 something else under oath that is a lie, I need to 4 know about it. Because that has -- bears on her 5 credibility. So either it's a lie or it's the 6 truth. If it's the truth, then it bears on their 7 argument that is going to be whatever it is they're 8 going -- 9 MR. FUGATE: I'm just asking because I have to 10 decide what we have to do -- 11 THE COURT: Right. 12 MR. FUGATE: -- because I haven't read them, I 13 have to go through them at this point. 14 THE COURT: I obviously haven't, either. 15 MR. FUGATE: All right. Thank you, Judge. 16 MR LIROT: Judge, I'll hand these up to the 17 Court. 18 THE COURT: I mean, there may be some that have 19 no relevance at all. I don't know. I'll let you -- 20 you can't -- we don't have the time right now -- 21 MR. FUGATE: I can't respond yet. 22 THE COURT: But for now, I'm going to assume 23 that they're being introduced to ask her whether 24 they are true or whether she lied under oath. 25 MR. FUGATE: I understand your point. I'm 1081 1 trying to get in my mind what I'll be doing -- 2 THE COURT: Maybe we'll get a clue -- 3 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 4 THE COURT: But let's -- what is it -- if they 5 are true, what are you going to -- 6 MR LIROT: I want to know, if these are 7 authenticated by her, I want to know what is true 8 and what is false in these affidavits, these 9 declarations. 10 THE COURT: Oh, brother, we may have trouble 11 with that. 12 MR. McGOWAN: I think the Court asked her are 13 all of the declarations you filed in this case true. 14 She said yes. So I think the point has been made. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, seems like she needs to 16 read them. 17 THE COURT: Yes, I guess so. Look at this. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Right. I mean, before she's 19 answering questions as to whether they are at this 20 point true or false, I think she needs to go through 21 them. 22 THE COURT: Well, I mean, I think she can tell 23 us whether she ever filed a false affidavit. Surely 24 anybody that filed a false affidavit would be able 25 to readily tell us about it. I mean, when you 1082 1 file -- one should not file false, affidavits and if 2 one does, you would think you would remember it. 3 MR LIROT: All right. 4 THE COURT: So if she said yes, these are her 5 affidavits and yes, they pertain to these cases, 6 then I'm going to have to know what the relevance is 7 and then we'll let you tell us what is relevant and 8 then they'll be introduced. If, in fact, they're 9 true and there is no relevance to them, then I'm 10 going to have them taken out. 11 MR LIROT: Fair enough, Judge. 12 THE COURT: If they are false, they are 13 relevant. No question about it. If she testifies 14 any one of these are false, they are in. That is 15 relevant. 16 MR LIROT: Very good. 17 THE COURT: If she testifies they are true, 18 then you, Counselor, are going to have to tell me 19 why a true affidavit has relevance to this hearing. 20 And I'll let you do that. I don't know what her 21 answer is going to be because she -- although she 22 said they're all true, in fairness, I think -- I 23 think you need to take a look at them -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, thank you. 25 THE COURT: -- and read them and then we'll go 1083 1 from there. 2 MR LIROT: Very good, Judge. 3 MR. McGOWAN: So for now 17 through I think 28 4 are marked for identification only? Is that right? 5 THE COURT: Yes. This Number 14 has been 6 introduced and it is relevant to matters in this 7 hearing. 8 MR. McGOWAN: And that is also 24 which didn't 9 come in so we skip a number. 10 THE WITNESS: Which one is that, your Honor? 11 THE COURT: That is this one, ma'am, where it 12 talks about that Mr. Rinder -- 13 THE WITNESS: Oh, that is the one -- 14 THE COURT: -- asked you all -- you and your 15 husband to come in and perjure yourself by stating 16 under oath some lawyer lied. 17 THE WITNESS: That is the one that was 18 submitted earlier? 19 THE COURT: Yes. Well, you asked for a copy of 20 it? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: You are welcome to have it, but it 23 has already been admitted. That is in for 24 relevance, but I have already determined it is 25 relevant and nobody objected to it so we are not 1084 1 going to spend a lot of time on it. 2 THE WITNESS: But it is true I never really 3 read the whole thing. 4 THE COURT: What he asked you about it and 5 asked you if it was true, you already testified 6 about. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 THE COURT: If you want to change that 9 testimony, well, then you can do that. But as far 10 as I'm concerned, you want to avoid looking at one 11 of these, you may avoid looking at that one because 12 it is in already. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 14 THE COURT: But always you want to correct 15 something that you said is false. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 BY MR LIROT: 18 Q Ms. Brooks, I'm going to go ahead and hold these 19 other declarations and documents marked for identification 20 and abate any questions on those for the time being. 21 Do you have a copy of your affidavit of April 29, 22 the one that was marked as Exhibit 72, I believe, to the 23 omnibus motion? 24 A Yes. 25 Q I would like to go through that with you at this 1085 1 point, if I may. 2 THE COURT: Before you do that, how about these 3 extra copies -- any reason why I need this? I don't 4 need this. I'm going to throw these in the 5 wastebasket, in other words, if nobody claims them. 6 MR. WEINBERG: That is the Hague Convention? 7 THE COURT: The Hague Convention? 8 MR. MOXON: That is fine, your Honor. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Shred them. 10 THE COURT: They are going to be shredded right 11 now. They're going in the wastebasket. Here we go. 12 Continue, Counsel. 13 Oh, I'm sorry, I found those as I was looking 14 for the affidavit. Let me find that, before you 15 begin. 16 Do you have your affidavit? 17 THE WITNESS: I have a copy. 18 MR. WEINBERG: That is the second affidavit? 19 MR LIROT: This is the second affidavit. 20 THE COURT: That is the long affidavit, right? 21 MR LIROT: The long one, Judge, we'll refer to 22 it as. I believe the affidavit was signed on 23 April 29, 2002. 24 THE COURT: Are you going to be talking about 25 the small affidavit? 1086 1 MR LIROT: No, Judge, I think we've already 2 gone through that one. 3 THE COURT: You have? Okay. 4 MR. WEINBERG: In the thick notebook, it is 5 Exhibit 72, if you can't find a copy of it. 6 THE COURT: I found it. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 8 THE COURT: Okay, I have got it, the witness 9 has it, we all have it. This is the affidavit that 10 she dated -- or I shouldn't say she -- that the 11 notary dated 4/29/02. A 17-page affidavit. Is that 12 it? 13 MR LIROT: That is it, Judge. 14 THE COURT: All right. And this is the last 15 thing we're going to cover with this witness. 16 Right? 17 MR LIROT: After those declarations are cleared 18 up, that is it. 19 THE WITNESS: My answers are going to be real 20 short, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR LIROT: See, we are all taking the advice 23 given, Judge. 24 BY MR LIROT: 25 Q Ms. Brooks, this affidavit, I think you already 1087 1 testified, was the product of, I guess, your initial draft 2 and was produced in meetings with, I guess, Ms. Yingling and 3 some other people, is that -- 4 A Incorrect. 5 Q -- correct? 6 A That is incorrect. 7 Q All right. You did meet with Ms. Yingling in 8 producing this? Or did she just type it for you? 9 MR. McGOWAN: Asked and answered. 10 MR. FUGATE: Objection. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Judge -- 12 THE COURT: Sustained. She already did this, 13 Counsel. If you have more questions about this 14 preparation, but you have covered this. And that 15 was not what I recall her testimony being. 16 BY MR LIROT: 17 Q Was it you that decided to put in all this 18 information about background, I guess there is a heading 19 here, "Background"? 20 MR. McGOWAN: Asked and answered. 21 THE COURT: I'll allow it. If he's going 22 through the affidavit, I don't remember about the 23 headings. It has been so long. That was one of the 24 first days. 25 A Well, just to try to shortcut this a little bit, 1088 1 it was my decision to put in all of the information that is 2 in it, including any paragraph that you wanted to ask me 3 about specifically, all of it was my decision. 4 THE COURT: I think what he's asking you about 5 specifically, I think what he was talking about, you 6 see up here where it says "Background" and then 7 there is one later that breaks out -- 8 THE WITNESS: Oh, the headers? 9 THE COURT: The headers. 10 THE WITNESS: I do headers. It's my habit. 11 Those are my headers. 12 BY MR LIROT: 13 Q Okay. I think that you talk about some of the 14 background that you had I guess in Paragraph 2, you talk 15 about you being contacted by Dan Leipold and Graham Berry? 16 A I believe it speaks for itself. 17 Q Okay. How did they find you, Mr. Leipold and 18 Mr. Berry? 19 A Mmm, I had occasion to meet a woman who was 20 involved in an anti-cult organization and Mr. Leipold was 21 her attorney. 22 Q Who was the woman? 23 A Her name is Priscilla Coates. 24 Q And did she have any involvement with Scientology? 25 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, we covered all this. 1089 1 THE COURT: We did? 2 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, your Honor, the first day. 3 Her whole dealings, how she got into the -- how she 4 got into the business with Leipold and the 5 witness -- 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't remember it, but 7 if you say we did, and if -- did we cover this, 8 Counselor? 9 MR LIROT: I don't remember covering anything 10 about Ms. Coates, Judge. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. McGOWAN: All right. 13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I wish I could help you 14 out here. If he said it is covered -- I don't 15 remember. 16 BY MR LIROT: 17 Q I think my question was did Ms. Coates have any 18 discontent with Scientology? 19 A She was involved in a lawsuit -- her organization 20 was involved in a lawsuit having to do with Scientology. 21 Q Okay. What organization was that? 22 A The Cult Awareness Network. 23 Q And how did you come to meet Ms. Coates? 24 A Mmm, a former Scientologist met with me and my 25 husband and introduced us to her. 1090 1 Q You were out of Scientology at that point, I take 2 it? 3 A Yes. He was involved in anti-Scientology 4 litigation. 5 Q I guess your next paragraph talks about you were 6 paid by -- 7 THE COURT: I don't want you to read now, 8 Counselor, what it says. It says what it says and 9 it's in the record. Ask her questions about it, if 10 you want to. 11 MR LIROT: I will, Judge. 12 BY MR LIROT: 13 Q There is a statement in here that says attorneys 14 wanted to know what they could do to put pressure on 15 Scientology to get a case dropped or get a large -- 16 THE COURT: Counselor -- 17 MR LIROT: I'm just laying foundation, Judge. 18 THE COURT: There is no foundation to be laid. 19 Ask her a question about it. She can read. I can 20 read. Do you want to say, "Read Paragraph 2? I 21 have got a question"? 22 BY MR LIROT: 23 Q All right, read Paragraph 3. I have a question. 24 THE COURT: I thought we were on Paragraph 2. 25 MR LIROT: I moved on, Judge. 1091 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR LIROT: Blinding pace here. 3 THE COURT: What paragraph are we on? 3? 4 MR LIROT: We're on 3. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 BY MR LIROT: 8 Q All right. Now, it says there you had -- the 9 overall strategy that you developed was to target David 10 Miscavige because he was the head of Scientology. Okay? 11 How did you develop that strategy? Was that completely made 12 up by you? 13 A I believe we covered this earlier, but I will 14 cover it again. 15 There was a case that I was familiar with from 16 when I was in Scientology in which it was a successful 17 strategy by a party to target L. Ron Hubbard. 18 Q Who was the head of Scientology then, right? 19 A Yes. So at this time when I was being paid to do 20 this work, David Miscavige was head of Scientology. 21 Q Okay. And I think you testified something to the 22 effect that Mr. Hubbard didn't like to have his deposition 23 taken. Do you remember saying something to that effect? 24 A No. 25 Q So I guess my question to you is, it says you have 1092 1 known -- you read paragraph -- "I have no knowledge or 2 evidence of any involvement of Mr. Miscavige in the cases." 3 "In the cases." You knew him to be the head of Scientology. 4 Isn't that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. Paragraph 4, I'll cut right to the chase, 7 right in the middle it said you wrote affidavits and 8 declarations based on these theories. You'll have an 9 opportunity to read the declarations. I guess I'll ask if 10 those relate to your statement here in Paragraph 4. 11 A It -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: You want her to read it? Is 13 that what you're asking? 14 MR LIROT: No, I'll get back to that. I'm 15 going to give her a chance to read those 16 declarations first. 17 BY MR LIROT: 18 Q Now, you make a statement, "Use supposition and 19 careful wording to make allegations that would fit the 20 particular assertion." 21 Is that what you did in this affidavit? 22 MR. McGOWAN: In which affidavit? 23 A In which affidavit? 24 BY MR LIROT: 25 Q In the April 29 affidavit? 1093 1 A Oh, no. 2 Q So you didn't use any supposition or careful 3 wording in this one? That is just basically the affidavit 4 that you want this Court to look at? 5 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, she answered it and 6 he asked it again. 7 THE COURT: No, I think that is fair. I think 8 what he's saying is she used this approach in all 9 these other affidavits, is she also using that same 10 approach in this affidavit. 11 This affidavit, ma'am, meaning the one you just 12 filed in this case that we're really here, what 13 brought us here -- 14 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I think when you read 15 this fairly large stack, you'll see that there is 16 quite a bit of supposition and careful wording in 17 them. It was my job. I was being paid to do it. 18 Now I have written an affidavit to set the 19 record straight. It's -- it was, to the best of my 20 ability, an attempt to communicate without trying to 21 put any kind of slant on it one way or the other. 22 THE COURT: I don't have to read the between 23 the lines here? 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25 THE COURT: And it is straightforward, as far 1094 1 as you are concerned? 2 THE WITNESS: To the best of my ability, your 3 Honor. 4 MR. MOXON: For the record the stack she's 5 talking about are the -- 6 THE COURT: We're talking about this affidavit. 7 MR. MOXON: But she just -- 8 THE WITNESS: But the stack is the stack of 9 declarations that I'm assigned to read tonight. 10 MR. MOXON: Okay. 11 THE COURT: And that -- those affidavits are 12 the ones that she's referring to in here -- 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: -- on theories and use supposition 15 and careful wording to make allegations that would 16 fit the assertions that would create an impression 17 without actually lying. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. And I think when you read 19 these, you'll see what -- 20 THE COURT: Oh, I shall look forward to taking 21 this home tonight and reading. I'm being facetious 22 again. 23 THE WITNESS: I know. 24 THE COURT: All right. I don't want that 25 misconstrued on the record. 1095 1 BY MR LIROT: 2 Q Now, you talk about supposition and careful 3 wording. 4 MR LIROT: Judge, if I could approach the 5 witness. 6 THE COURT: You may. 7 BY MR LIROT: 8 Q I would -- 9 MR LIROT: I would like this marked for 10 identification as Number 28. 11 MR. DANDAR: We already have 29. 12 MR. WEINBERG: We already have 29. 13 MR LIROT: 29. 14 MR. WEINBERG: We have 29. 15 MR LIROT: 30. All right. 16 THE COURT: Do you know, sometimes it is really 17 good if you are going to have a hearing if you mark 18 your exhibits in advance, put little tags on them. 19 BY MR LIROT: 20 Q Do you recognize this as an E-Mail sent from you? 21 MR. WEINBERG: What is it? 22 A I need to look it over for a minute, please. 23 THE COURT: What does PGP mean? I have seen 24 this before. 25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, its an encryption 1096 1 program. 2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't even know what 3 that is. 4 THE WITNESS: Well -- 5 THE COURT: Go ahead. 6 THE WITNESS: -- it's a computer program that 7 you can use to -- when you write an E-Mail message, 8 if you don't want it to be able to be intercepted 9 and read by someone else, you can use this program 10 called -- it stands for pretty good privacy, PGP. 11 And what it does is it turns your message into 12 gobbledygook, which the person at the other end of 13 it then needs to also have PGP to translate it -- 14 THE COURT: Unscramble it. 15 THE WITNESS: Unscramble it. 16 THE COURT: Apparently it doesn't work. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, there is also a function of 18 PGP that allows you to sign a message -- if you see 19 in the beginning it says PGP sign message, then at 20 the end -- well, they have taken off the PGP 21 encryption at the end. But this is a way for 22 someone to be able to tell that it was really signed 23 by the person that it says it is from. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: Or -- or I mean that it was 1097 1 really written by that person. 2 BY MR LIROT: 3 Q Ms. Brooks, let me draw -- 4 A Could I just look it over for a minute, please? 5 Q You certainly can. I'm sorry if I'm rushing you. 6 Take your time. 7 MR. McGOWAN: Is this an E-Mail, or a posting? 8 THE WITNESS: It's a posting. At the top of 9 the head of the page it says -- 10 THE COURT: Take your time reading it because 11 I'm reading it, too. 12 THE WITNESS: Why is this paragraph red? 13 BY MR LIROT: 14 Q Pardon me? 15 A There is a paragraph that is the color red. 16 THE COURT: I don't know what you are talking 17 about. Is there a red paragraph? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, see, look, it is red. 19 THE COURT: I haven't gotten -- I'm only on 20 Page 2. I don't even understand it, but go on 21 ahead. Have you had a chance to read it, ma'am? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. 23 THE COURT: Go on ahead. I'll catch up with 24 you all. 25 1098 1 BY MR LIROT: 2 Q I just want to draw your attention to the 3 paragraph, I believe it is fifth paragraph starts with 4 "Yesterday." 5 MR. WEINBERG: On which page is that? 6 MR LIROT: I'm sorry? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Page 1? 8 MR LIROT: It is on my Page 2. It must be on 9 your Page 2. 10 MR. FUGATE: We only have one between 11 Mr. McGowan and myself. 12 MR LIROT: It begins, "Yesterday the 13 Scientologists sent a letter." 14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Yeah. 15 BY MR LIROT: 16 Q And did you make this posting? Is this something 17 you put on the Internet? 18 A As I recall, I did. 19 Q All right. And I think the second sentence of 20 that fifth paragraph says, "Although it was signed by Frank 21 Ofman, it was obviously written by one of Scientology's 22 attorneys." 23 Do you know Scientology's attorneys to prepare 24 documents for other people to sign in this fashion? 25 A No. 1099 1 Q Why would you say something like that in your 2 posting? 3 A Well, as I think I testified about quite often, 4 I -- at the time this was written, it says it was 5 December 17, 1998, it was my job to create the worst 6 impression possible of Scientology at every possible 7 opportunity. And that is what I was doing in this post. 8 Q Who were you working for on December 17, 1998? 9 A Mr. Minton. 10 Q And I guess the last sentence in that paragraph 11 says: "Apparently, a classic example of Scientology's slick 12 seductive manipulation of the truth." 13 Did you mean that when you wrote it? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And did you know that to be true when you wrote 16 it? 17 A Mmm, well, this is a posting on the Internet, not 18 an affidavit. 19 Q Did you know that to be true when you wrote it? 20 A You know -- 21 MR. FUGATE: Objection to the interruption, 22 your Honor. 23 A I'm not required to sign -- you know, to swear 24 under oath for a posting on the Internet. The purpose -- 25 MR LIROT: Judge, I move to strike as 1100 1 nonresponsive. It's just a yes or no question. 2 THE COURT: That is true. 3 BY MR LIROT: 4 Q "It's a classic example of Scientology's slick 5 seductive manipulation of the truth." 6 Did you know that to be true when you posted it in 7 1998? 8 MR. FUGATE: Objection as an opinion. 9 THE WITNESS: Excuse me? 10 THE COURT: I think he's only asking her 11 whether she believed this to be true when she wrote 12 it, I guess. 13 A No. 14 BY MR LIROT: 15 Q Okay. Go down -- I would like to draw your 16 attention down to the paragraph that begins with: "I was in 17 the Guardian's Office." Skip the one that said: "We 18 picketed for an hour." 19 Go down to: "I was in the Guardian's Office." 20 Would you read that paragraph, please. 21 A This is the red one. Do you know why it is red? 22 Q We must have highlighted it for some reason. 23 THE COURT: I don't even know how to do that. 24 You can highlight something and it comes out red? 25 MR LIROT: Apparently so, Judge. I don't know 1101 1 how to do that, either, but -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR LIROT: 4 Q Your first statement there, "I was in the 5 Guardian's Office in the Office of Special Affairs for 6 eleven years. And all that time I never saw -- I was in the 7 Guardian's Office and the Office of Special Affairs for 8 eleven years and in all that time I never saw anyone 9 targeted for elimination as relentlessly as Bob is being 10 targeted by Scientology." 11 Well, what does "targeted for elimination" 12 mean? 13 A Well, in this case Mr. Minton was already, by '98, 14 involved in funding quite a bit of various litigation in 15 which Scientology was involved. And it was my impression 16 that they were doing everything they possibly could to 17 dissuade him from continuing to fund their adversaries. 18 Q Well -- 19 A And -- and to dissuade him from being an adversary 20 himself. 21 Q Well, dissuading somebody from funding does not 22 seem to be targeted for elimination. Those are very strong 23 words. 24 MR. McGOWAN: He's arguing with the witness. 25 THE COURT: Pardon me? 1102 1 MR. McGOWAN: He's arguing with the witness. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 MR LIROT: Judge, I would like this introduced 4 into evidence as Number 30. 5 THE WITNESS: So we're done with this one? 6 MR LIROT: We're done with this one. 7 THE COURT: Any objection? 8 MR. FUGATE: I just object to relevance based 9 on what she just testified to. 10 THE COURT: I think the relevance is that I 11 suspect, as I indicated earlier, part of their 12 argument is going to be part of the motive for what 13 they are going to say is fabrication is the extreme 14 harassment that was going on of Mr. Minton. 15 I'm not saying that is true, but if you read 16 her declaration, of the 52 pages -- which, by the 17 way, I read every word -- which she said that was 18 accurate, slanted perhaps, but accurate, they are 19 going to suggest one of the motives to have them 20 come in and lie, which is what they're going to 21 suggest, is to stop the harassment. This is 22 relevant to that harassment. 23 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, did you say you read 24 a 52-page declaration? 25 THE COURT: No, I'm sorry, I read your 52 pages 1103 1 of the time line on harassment of Mr. Minton. 2 THE WITNESS: Oh. Okay. 3 THE COURT: I'm not sure why. I just read it. 4 And I kept reading it and I kept thinking, "Maybe I 5 can stop." But I would just pick it up and read it 6 some more. So I finally realized I was ten pages 7 from the end and I thought, "I'm going to finish 8 this." 9 THE WITNESS: Well, I take that as a compliment 10 on my writing, so -- 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 BY MR LIROT: 13 Q I'm going to get into the McPherson wrongful death 14 case section, I think that begins with Paragraph Number 7. 15 A Which document are we on now? 16 Q Our affidavit of April 29. 17 A Okay. 18 THE COURT: Actually, it was in that 19 affidavit -- I'm sorry, not that affidavit. It was 20 in that time line of Scientology's harassment of 21 Robert Minton where I saw quite a few indications of 22 the Nigerian discussion. 23 THE WITNESS: Oh, that is true. 24 THE COURT: When I said I read that a few 25 places, it may have been a few places in there, 1104 1 although I do believe I read it in one of his 2 depositions. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, it was definitely in the 4 time line. 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 BY MR LIROT: 7 Q Now, please read Paragraph 7 of your April 29 8 affidavit. 9 THE COURT: So, Mr. Fugate, that is the 10 relevance and therefore I'm going to allow him to 11 get it in. 12 MR. FUGATE: I heard you. 13 THE COURT: I don't know what the relevance is. 14 I'm assuming -- I mean, we are all lawyers, 15 everybody seems to know where we are going. We just 16 seem to be slow in getting there. 17 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: What paragraph, Counsel? 19 MR LIROT: Paragraph 7, Judge, under the 20 heading "The McPherson Wrongful Death Case." 21 BY MR LIROT: 22 Q Now -- 23 A Excuse me? 24 Q I'm sorry. 25 A Okay. 1105 1 Q Isn't it true that Mr. Dandar was more 2 communicating with Vaughn Young at this time than you? 3 A No. 4 Q Weren't you reluctant to even become involved in 5 this case, in the Lisa McPherson case? 6 A Mmm, at that time I was moving away from any work 7 in litigation. But I was -- I did speak to Mr. Dandar and I 8 did work on this case -- 9 Q All right. 10 A -- because he specifically wanted my help because 11 of my specific qualifications technically. 12 Q All right. Well, wasn't it Mr. Young that 13 participated with Mr. Dandar in the drafting of the first 14 amended complaint, and not you? 15 A It was both of us. 16 Q Well, didn't Mr. Young have some information about 17 how the hierarchy of, I guess, people in power in 18 Scientology was laid out. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Wasn't it Mr. Young that basically taught 21 Mr. Dandar how that hierarchy worked, who was in charge, who 22 was second in command and those types of things? 23 A It was both of us. 24 THE COURT: Since we're on that paragraph, I 25 had a question about that. 1106 1 This apparently was sent to -- this, according 2 to your affidavit, occurred in May of 1997. This 3 letter that was written. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: That was before Mr. Dandar ever met 6 Mr. Minton. Isn't it? 7 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I'm not sure if it was 8 before he had met him. But it was before he had 9 begun funding the case. 10 THE COURT: I believe that the testimony is and 11 has been that it was October of 1997. 12 THE WITNESS: That is possible, your Honor. 13 And I had never met Mr. Minton at this point, 14 either. 15 THE COURT: So, in fact, in May of 1997, before 16 Mr. Minton was ever involved, Mr. Dandar wrote a 17 letter saying: "I'm enclosing a copy of the 18 proposed amended complaint. I intend to sue 19 Mr. Miscavige." 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 MR. FUGATE: I would just correct the Court's 22 impression. I think in Mr. Minton's affidavit he 23 talks about meeting Mr. Dandar and Mr. Wollersheim, 24 I think it was, in the -- 25 THE WITNESS: In 1996. 1107 1 THE COURT: Okay. We'll see. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Specifically, he said a meeting 3 in March of 1997 in Clearwater. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, March. 5 MR. WEINBERG: In a hotel room. 6 THE COURT: Where Mr. Minton didn't say a word. 7 THE WITNESS: Right. 8 THE COURT: When was the first check written? 9 MR. WEINBERG: October. 10 THE COURT: Of what? 11 MR. WEINBERG: 1997. 12 THE COURT: And the allegation of Scientology 13 has been, at least if I read everything you have 14 given me correctly, is right after that check was 15 written, bingo, we have a first amended complaint. 16 Right? 17 MR. FUGATE: Right. 18 MR. WEINBERG: In December of 1997, right. 19 THE COURT: And by golly, that is when the 20 Church was starting to be attacked because 21 Mr. Minton wanted it attacked. Right? Am I -- did 22 I not read what you wanted me to read correctly? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 24 MR. FUGATE: You read it correctly. 25 THE COURT: And here, in May of '97, before 1108 1 October of '97, a letter is being written saying, 2 "I'm enclosing a copy of the proposed amended 3 complaint." Then it says, "I intend to sue David 4 Miscavige." 5 I mean, that is what I wrote on my margin. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Right, and Mr. Minton explains 7 in his affidavit basically a discussion, I think, at 8 the meeting in March that he was silent at but that 9 he was participating in, a discussion of strategy 10 including Mr. Miscavige. That is what he said, I 11 think, in his affidavit, but I don't have it in 12 front of me. 13 THE COURT: We'll hear your argument. That is 14 a benefit for you you don't normally get. That is 15 what I wrote down and I starred it. I thought it 16 was fairly important. 17 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, Mr. Minton had argued 18 in front of Mr. Wollersheim. And I believe it was 19 Mr. Wollersheim that brought Mr. Dandar in contact 20 with Mr. Minton. 21 THE COURT: Don't try to show bias here, ma'am. 22 I will give the lawyers the benefit of my thinking 23 here. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay, sorry. 25 THE COURT: And you don't need to help one side 1109 1 or the other. 2 Now, also another little note here, since we're 3 on that paragraph. 4 You were the expert consultant, whatever it is, 5 it says, "Mr. Dandar hired me as a consultant expert 6 witness." Right? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 THE COURT: He's asking you -- he's paying -- 9 was he paying you at that time? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: That is what you do with a 12 consultant and expert, you ask. "I don't know much 13 about this. I need some help here." Right? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 THE COURT: He asked you, as a consultant, as 16 an expert, to help him out. Right? 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. 18 THE COURT: And what did you tell him? 19 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I told him -- well, 20 generally, I told him things that I thought would 21 help him. 22 THE COURT: Well, here is the question, this is 23 to you, I guess, would Mr. Miscavige have personal 24 knowledge of those in isolation and their condition, 25 and your answer was? 1110 1 THE WITNESS: That he might. 2 THE COURT: And you are the expert. Right? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: And based on that, he takes the 5 advice of his expert and files a lawsuit. Maybe. 6 All right. Move on. 7 MR LIROT: All right. 8 BY MR LIROT: 9 Q The last sentence says you couldn't have -- "I 10 could not possibly have any personal knowledge of what had 11 happened to Lisa McPherson." 12 Nobody asked you about any personal knowledge, did 13 they? 14 A Nobody -- 15 Q About what happened to Lisa McPherson. You 16 weren't there. Nobody could ever have asked you about that. 17 Right? 18 A Mmm, I don't recall if he asked me about that. 19 But it was clear that I didn't. 20 THE COURT: I mean, fair is fair. And 21 Mr. Dandar may be guilty of lying or suborning 22 perjury or guilty of committing perjury himself, but 23 it does seem to me when a lawyer hires and pays 24 for -- a lawyer for expert advice and they ask them 25 a question, that they are allowed to rely on their 1111 1 advice. It seems to me. 2 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, it all depends what they 3 are relying on and what the advice is, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: I understand that. 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: The lawyer is not allowed to 6 make allegations of intentional murder based upon 7 somebody saying, "Well, it might have happened." 8 And that was addressed in the memorandum we filed 9 today. No matter what the expert says. The expert 10 can't speculate and say, "Well, yeah, that might 11 have happened and yes, you could make an allegation 12 of that because maybe it might have happened." You 13 have to have evidence, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: We'll hear your argument at the 15 proper time. I'm just suggesting to you when you 16 hire an expert, you have got to be able to rely on 17 your expert to some extent. Maybe there are certain 18 things you can't do. But that is where you go get 19 this information. There is no allegation here that 20 Mr. Dandar ever was, has been or ever will be a 21 Scientologist. She has. 22 MR LIROT: Very good. 23 THE COURT: And her husband has. And Jesse 24 Prince had. 25 1112 1 BY MR LIROT: 2 Q Ms. Brooks, let me draw your attention to 3 Paragraph Number 8 and ask if you can read that paragraph. 4 A Okay. 5 Q All right? This so-called strategy that you had 6 developed, you had not developed any strategy; you knew all 7 of what you put in those declarations to be true. Isn't it? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor, all of 9 those statements in the declarations to be true, he 10 gave her 15 declarations -- affidavits. 11 THE COURT: Are you referring to those you gave 12 her to look at? 13 MR LIROT: Everything that she has put into the 14 record in any judicial proceeding that talks about 15 her so-called, quote, strategy, about adding or 16 developing a way to target Mr. Miscavige. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, let me read this 18 paragraph again. You are talking about Paragraph 8? 19 MR LIROT: Paragraph 8, Judge. 20 THE COURT: Okay, now I have read it. Now what 21 is your question? 22 BY MR LIROT: 23 Q Well, clearly Vaughn Young is not included in this 24 paragraph. Is he? You take full credit for the development 25 of this strategy, as you call it? 1113 1 A Yes. 2 Q And Vaughn Young didn't have any input with 3 Mr. Dandar prior to the first amendment complaint being 4 filed. Is that your position? 5 A No. 6 Q Well -- 7 A It's not. 8 Q What input did Mr. Young have that might have 9 helped Mr. Dandar in crafting the first amended complaint? 10 A Mr. Young and I were married and we were partners 11 in this consulting business that we had. And he and I had 12 worked together on the earlier Fishman case in which this 13 strategy had been developed. 14 Q Well, it wasn't your strategy then, was it? 15 A It was primarily my strategy. He and I had worked 16 together. But it was my strategy. 17 Q And you sold it to Mr. Young, knowing it not to be 18 true? 19 A I didn't sell him anything. What do you mean, 20 sell him? 21 Q Convinced him that there was some merit to this 22 strategy? Mr. Young didn't have any personal feelings that 23 what you were putting in all these declarations was 24 accurate? 25 A Mr. Young didn't have any problem with it at all. 1114 1 He was in the same business I was. We were working 2 together. 3 Q Did he know it to be untrue? 4 THE COURT: Who are we talking about? 5 MR LIROT: Mr. Young. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Young? 7 MR LIROT: Mr. Young. 8 A You would have to ask Mr. Young. 9 BY MR LIROT: 10 Q Fair enough. 11 THE COURT: Well, I guess the obvious question, 12 in light the of the allegations made, is to the best 13 of your knowledge and belief, did Mr. Minton have 14 anything to do with this? Or is this you and 15 Mr. Young? 16 It says: "Mr. Dandar incorporated the strategy 17 I had developed to target Mr. Miscavige and the 18 upper echelon of Scientology --" 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Then it has: "Following 21 Mr. Minton's $100,000 loan." 22 How are those connected? I understand people 23 might like to have them connected, but the truth of 24 the matter is, is what you are really alleging is 25 that it was your information that was incorporated. 1115 1 Right? Information you had provided, perhaps 2 others, as well? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Do you know of your own 5 knowledge whether the first payment of $100,000 had 6 anything to do with incorporating your strategy into 7 a first amended complaint? 8 THE WITNESS: Mmm, only my belief. 9 THE COURT: Do you have any knowledge -- in 10 other words, I know there are other things in here 11 where you have indicated that you and Mr. Minton and 12 Mr. Dandar met with Dr. Garko, and we'll hear about 13 that -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 THE COURT: -- from other witnesses maybe. But 16 do you have any knowledge, was there ever any 17 discussion by Mr. Dandar, "I wouldn't have used what 18 you told me but for the fact I got $100,000 from 19 Mr. Minton"? 20 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, he never said 21 that to me. I only -- you know, I -- the answer to 22 your question is I do not have personal knowledge 23 about it. I assumed that it was the case based on 24 my subsequent dealings with Mr. Dandar and my 25 overall belief that his pursuit of this wrongful 1116 1 death case in the way he has done it has been as a 2 result of Mr. Minton's funding. 3 BY MR LIROT: 4 Q Well, Mr. Dandar didn't include Mr. Miscavige in 5 the first amended complaint. Did he? 6 A No, he did not. 7 Q So he rejected your strategy. 8 A No, I believe the court -- I believe he'd already 9 made that agreement in which he was not supposed to. But 10 I'm not -- I believe that is why he didn't, but I'm not 11 sure. 12 Q But your strategy, it didn't work with that first 13 $100,000, did it? 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object. The first 15 amended complaint is going to speak for itself. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR LIROT: 18 Q All right. Would you please read Paragraph 9. 19 THE COURT: Let's say we try to beat the crowd 20 for lunch. 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, you had told 22 Mr. Lirot that he could have until 12:30. 23 THE COURT: That is right. I did. 24 MR LIROT: I don't mind a long lunch. 25 THE COURT: What did I say? We go 12:30 to 1117 1 1:30? 2 MR. McGOWAN: He had a 1:00 o'clock hearing. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. WEINBERG: What time is your hearing? 5 MR LIROT: One o'clock conference call. 6 THE COURT: How much time is your hearing? 7 MR LIROT: I would imagine no longer than 25 8 minutes, Judge, tops. 9 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay, I read that paragraph. 11 BY MR LIROT: 12 Q All right. Now, in mid-1998, where were you 13 living? 14 A Mmm, I believe I still lived in Washington state. 15 And I was traveling. 16 Q All right. And how many different lawsuits were 17 you involved with in 1998? 18 A Perhaps three, as I recall. 19 Q Okay. And you were living here, you were working 20 on three other lawsuits -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, objection. She just 22 said she was living in Washington. 23 MR LIROT: Correct. 24 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was thinking about 25 lunch. 1118 1 MR. WEINBERG: Then you said she was living 2 here. 3 MR LIROT: Weren't. Weren't. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. I was thinking about 5 lunch, too. Maybe. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Let us both concentrate 7 more. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Or have lunch. 10 THE COURT: Right, or have lunch, have a long 11 one. 12 THE WITNESS: Do you want to have a long lunch, 13 your Honor? 14 THE COURT: I might. I really get weak. 15 Especially when I haven't eaten breakfast. Your 16 hearing is from 1 to 1:30? 17 MR LIROT: Yes, Judge. 18 THE COURT: We'll take from now until 1:30. 19 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 20 21 22 23 24 25 1119 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 14th day of May, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 14, 2002. Afternoon Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________ KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320 Volume 9, Page 1121 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff 5 6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 8 Attorney for Plaintiff 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 10 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 11 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 12 13 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 14 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 15 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 16 Organization 17 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 18 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 19 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 20 21 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue 22 St. Petersburg, Florida. Counsel for Robert Minton 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1122 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Mr. Rick Spector Mr. Allan Cartwright 8 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller 9 Mr. Ben Shaw Ms. Joyce Earl 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1123 1 (The afternoon session began at 1:33 p.m. 2 Ms. Stacy Brooks is still the witness.) 3 THE COURT: We don't have Mr. Fugate at the 4 moment, so we'll wait for him. 5 (Mr. Fugate entered the courtroom.) 6 MR. FUGATE: Thank you very much, your 7 Honor. 8 THE COURT: You're welcome. 9 I had a chance just recently to read the 10 filing this morning from the Church, memorandum in 11 further support of omnibus motion for terminating 12 sanctions and other relief. 13 Did the plaintiffs get a copy of this? 14 MR. LIROT: Yes, we did, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: I think that you're on notice 16 that one of the bases upon which they plan to ask me 17 to dismiss this case at the conclusion of this hearing 18 is that -- their belief that there was no foundation 19 to file the fifth amended complaint. 20 MR. LIROT: That certainly appears from the 21 face of that, although they are not specific. There's 22 a lot of case law, but there's certainly no specific 23 allegation in that -- in that memorandum. 24 THE COURT: Well, it's specific enough for 25 me, that I know that what I'm going to be asked to do KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1124 1 is to dismiss this, stating that, number one, there 2 was no good-faith basis to file the complaint that is 3 in existence in this case, which would be the last 4 complaint -- 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Correct. 6 THE COURT: -- which is the fifth amended 7 complaint. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 9 THE COURT: And I think you're on notice. I 10 don't think we're that far into the hearing. And I'll 11 be candid with you all, I have some serious questions 12 about this. I raised this -- 13 MR. LIROT: Yes. 14 THE COURT: -- yesterday. 15 MR. LIROT: Yes. 16 THE COURT: I said at some point in time 17 we've got to know this. We just can't go to trial 18 wondering if there's any basis to support this 19 complaint. 20 And I think now they've made it an issue in 21 this hearing, as I said. If we were three-quarters of 22 the way through, I would gasp and say, "Oh, dear lord, 23 we're going to have to do it again." But I don't 24 think we do, and I think this would be evidentiary in 25 nature. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1125 1 And again, I'm not requiring you necessarily 2 to put on your entire case. 3 MR. LIROT: Right. 4 THE COURT: But I think that this fairly 5 puts this at issue, which is that this complaint -- 6 and I'm talking now about the complaint that I didn't 7 exactly understand how it was filed, that being that 8 the Church allowed this lady to die intentionally. 9 MR. LIROT: Yes. 10 THE COURT: That's what it says. 11 MR. LIROT: I'm aware -- I'm aware of the 12 allegations, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Yes. And so I would suspect 14 that in the process of your -- and -- and due to that, 15 if there's anybody that's been called in the previous 16 hearing -- you know, the only people called up there 17 were Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich and Mr. Minton -- 18 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 19 THE COURT: -- that's been called. So if 20 this witness is on the stand and you have anything 21 that you want to ask of her to support this aspect of 22 this -- this motion, you may feel free to expand. If 23 there's nothing that you want to ask her about this, 24 that's fine. 25 MR. LIROT: I -- actually, Judge, I was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1126 1 going to incorporate that into some of my questions 2 this afternoon. 3 THE COURT: Good. 4 MR. FUGATE: May we approach the bench, your 5 Honor? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Do you want this on the record? 8 MR. FUGATE: No. 9 (An off-the-record bench conference was held 10 between Mr. Fugate and Mr. Lirot.) 11 (Mr. Howie entered the courtroom.) 12 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks, I know you were 13 probably hopeful that you would be done today, and you 14 may be. I doubt that you had a chance to read all 15 those affidavits at lunch. 16 THE WITNESS: I didn't. 17 THE COURT: Okay. So in any event, if 18 there's to be some inquiry made about those 19 affidavits, it will have to be made -- 20 THE WITNESS: Thursday. 21 THE COURT: -- Thursday. I've explained to 22 counsel that I would assume this -- this -- it doesn't 23 matter really what it is. It's an allegation that the 24 complaint should be dismissed because there's no 25 good-faith basis to file it. And consequently, you -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1127 1 they may have some questions of you regarding that 2 they haven't asked now that this has been squarely put 3 at issue, not lies as much as was there a good-faith 4 basis. 5 THE WITNESS: All right. I understand that. 6 THE COURT: So if they expand their inquiry, 7 you end up being with us more than you thought you 8 were going to be, why, that's the reason. I've 9 allowed that. Otherwise, they would have to bring you 10 back, so -- okay? 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 THE COURT: You may continue. 13 So I'm assuming this is now at issue in this 14 hearing. 15 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 16 THE COURT: And that if there's any evidence 17 that anybody wants to put on, they need to put it on. 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 19 MR. LIROT: Acknowledged, Judge. 20 THE COURT: Good. 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, am I allowed to 22 know what that is? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 THE WITNESS: I mean, what it says. 25 THE COURT: It says: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1128 1 "Under Florida law, the complaint is 2 improper, not only where the attorney knows 3 factual allegations to be false, but also that 4 the plaintiff lacks evidence to support his 5 factual allegation and where the complaint is 6 based on speculation and surmise." 7 And so that is, in a nutshell -- this goes 8 on for eight -- well, not really -- 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: I kept it down to seven 10 pages. 11 THE COURT: Seven. Yes, you did, Counsel. 12 -- seven pages and citations, but they're 13 really sort of putting us on notice that they're not 14 just talking about allegations being false, but that 15 if a complaint is filed because it's a "maybe" or 16 "we're guessing," that they're going to make -- I 17 don't know if they're right or not -- they're going to 18 make a legal argument that I should dismiss the 19 complaint because it was either lies or there was no 20 good-faith basis or it was based on conjecture. 21 THE WITNESS: I see. Okay. 22 THE COURT: And as I said, you were a 23 consultant at this stage, so there may be some 24 matters -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1129 1 THE COURT: -- that they want to raise with 2 you, which we'll allow them to do. 3 THE WITNESS: All right. 4 MR. LIROT: Very good. Thank you, Judge. 5 THE COURT: You're welcome to read this, if 6 they want to give you a copy of it. But that's it in 7 a nutshell. 8 THE WITNESS: All right. Thank you, your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: If counsel wants to give you 11 more -- 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF STACY BROOKS, CONTINUED 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Ms. Brooks, you were going through your 15 affidavit, the one that you signed on April 29th, and I 16 think I had gotten to paragraph 9. And I asked you to read 17 that paragraph. Would you like to refresh your memory and 18 read it over again? 19 A I just did. 20 Q Just read it, all right. 21 THE COURT: And I would assume by that 22 motion that that motion means that they're going to 23 ask that this be dismissed with prejudice. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's correct, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: In other words, they're going to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1130 1 ask that it be dismissed and not be allowed to be 2 amended. 3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Which is another issue, but 5 that's -- 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 7 THE COURT: -- as I was reading that, I 8 didn't see that, but I just made that assumption, 9 which I'm sure you -- 10 MR. LIROT: I assumed the same from the 11 pleading, Judge. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Now, Ms. Brooks, paragraph 9, I think you had 15 testified that in mid-1998 you were a resident of 16 Washington state. You were living in Seattle? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. And at that point, were you still married 19 to Mr. Young? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And I think your testimony was that you were 22 working on three other cases involving the Church of 23 Scientology? 24 A I don't remember if your question concerned 25 mid-1998 or -- I don't remember what your question was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1131 1 earlier. 2 Q I was actually trying to find out what different 3 activities you were involved with in mid-1998, and that 4 might be the easiest way to answer that. What were you 5 doing in mid-1998? 6 A I was on the board of FACTNet with Mr. Minton. 7 Q Okay. 8 A The FACTNet lawsuit was still ongoing. As I 9 recall, I was working with Mr. Leiphold on that case, as 10 well as the Wollersheim case was also still ongoing, and 11 the wrongful death case. 12 Q Okay. You weren't doing anything with Mr. Dandar 13 in '98, though, were you? 14 A Yes. 15 Q All right. What -- what participation in the 16 wrongful death case did you have in 1998? 17 A As I recall, in the fall -- and actually, I 18 believe this is in my affidavit -- Mr. Prince -- Mr. Minton 19 and I had Mr. Prince begin working with Mr. Dandar at that 20 time. And I was working directly with Mr. Prince on it, as 21 well as being in touch with Mr. Dandar directly. 22 Q Well, I think you've got that in paragraph 11, 23 and I'm talking about mid-1998, focusing specifically on 24 paragraph 9. And you specifically say you became 25 Mr. Minton's eyes and ears in Mr. Dandar's office. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1132 1 A Well, I think -- I think if you read it 2 correctly, it says, "By mid-1998, Mr. Minton had begun to 3 pay me to assist him in his anti-Scientology activities." 4 THE COURT: Slow down, please. 5 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 6 Did you get that? 7 THE REPORTER: (Nodded affirmatively.) 8 A And then the next sentence is, "With regard to my 9 work on the wrongful death case, once I began working for 10 Mr. Minton, I became his eyes and ears." 11 I believe that it was in the fall -- I don't -- I 12 believe in the summer -- which, when I say mid-1998, I mean 13 mid to late summer. I believe I did have some contact with 14 Mr. Dandar towards the late summer, but more in the fall. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Okay. Well, this says mid-98, and I guess my 17 question would be, in mid-98, how many times had you been 18 in Mr. Dandar's office? 19 A I -- I don't recall when the first time was that 20 I was actually in his office. I don't recall. It may have 21 been later than mid-1998. But again, when I said 22 "mid-1998," what I was saying there was that by then 23 Mr. Minton had begun to pay me to assist him, and it wasn't 24 just the wrongful death case. 25 Q Well, to me, this suggests, to be somebody's eyes KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1133 1 and ears, that you're pretty much there all the time 2 keeping an eye on this case. What does that mean? You -- 3 it's your -- it's your phrase. I don't know what that 4 means, "Mr. Minton's eyes and ears in Mr. Dandar's office." 5 A Okay. 6 Q And you're -- and this is your affidavit, and 7 obviously your testimony was that you wanted to put a lot 8 in here. You wanted to set the record straight. And now 9 your testimony -- 10 MR. McGOWAN: Object to the form. This is a 11 speech. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. She never testified 13 she wanted to put a lie in here. 14 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 15 THE COURT: I thought that's what you said, 16 you wanted to put a lie in here. 17 MR. LIROT: No, no, no, no. I didn't say 18 that. 19 THE COURT: Oh, okay. What did you say? 20 MR. LIROT: "Eyes and ears." She wanted to 21 be Mr. Minton's eyes and ears. I didn't say -- I 22 didn't say lies. I wasn't accusing Ms. Brooks of 23 lying. I'm just -- I'm just wondering if -- 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q What do you mean by that? How could you possibly KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1134 1 be Mr. Minton's eyes and ears if you've got all this other 2 litigation, or at least three other cases, you're still 3 living in Seattle, and by your own testimony, this doesn't 4 really happen until late 1998. I guess on paragraph 11 you 5 make that statement. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I would object. 7 It's argumentative. If he could just ask one 8 question, just a question. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 When did you become Mr. Minton's eyes and 11 ears? 12 THE WITNESS: Once I began working for 13 Mr. Minton. 14 THE COURT: And was that mid-1998 or was 15 that later in 1998? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, with regard to the work 17 on the wrongful death case, I believe it was later in 18 1998. It was probably in the fall. Yes. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Well, then, this doesn't set the record straight. 21 This kind of slants it to a different direction, doesn't 22 it? 23 MR. McGOWAN: Argumentative. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1135 1 Q Now, in paragraph 10 -- if you could read that, 2 please. 3 A Yes. 4 Q How many conversations did you have with 5 Mr. Dandar where he said, "How could we bring pressure to 6 bear on Scientology?" 7 A I would estimate as many as 20, perhaps more. 8 Q And this is all in mid to late '98? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. 11 A No. 12 Q In mid to late '98, how many conversations would 13 you have had with Mr. Dandar relative to the issue of 14 bringing pressure to bear on Scientology? 15 A I don't remember how many in that particular time 16 period. When I say as many as 20, I mean during the course 17 of the time that I was working with him on this case. 18 Q Now, you also say that you advised him to 19 concentrate on attacking the upper echelon of Scientology. 20 And what was your basis in advising him to do that? 21 MR. McGOWAN: This has been asked and 22 answered. We're just going over this. 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was off in my own 24 world here. What was the question? 25 MR. McGOWAN: The question was what was the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1136 1 basis of her wanting to concentrate on attacking the 2 upper echelon of Scientology. I think the testimony 3 has been she developed a strategy, and she and 4 Mr. Dandar went over it a number of times. 5 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it to be 6 asked again. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q It says in paragraph 10, "In each conversation, I 9 advised him he should concentrate on attacking the upper 10 echelon of Scientology." And that's your strategy, isn't 11 it? Isn't that the strategy that you said you developed? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All right. Now, you developed that strategy, and 14 I guess you have a lot of Scientology documents in the Lisa 15 McPherson Trust that I think you earlier testified to that 16 you shredded because of some fear of copyright. Is that 17 correct? 18 A That was in 2000. 19 Q Okay. Well, did you have those -- those 20 documents? Did you have Scientology documents in mid to 21 late 1998? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And you'd been with Scientology for 15 years, 24 correct? 25 A About 14 1/2. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1137 1 Q Okay. So -- and I think your testimony was that 2 certainly in some of your declarations and the one that I 3 think we entered into evidence before today, you articulate 4 what your responsibilities were. And certainly you were 5 part of the -- of the OSA, correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q All right. And that's part of the higher 8 echelon, sort of the Office of Special Affairs? Is that 9 what it is? 10 MR. McGOWAN: It's a compound question, your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: Pardon me? That's true. 13 MR. McGOWAN: Object to the form. 14 MR. LIROT: All right. 15 THE COURT: But we do know OSA, what it is. 16 She's told us that. 17 MR. LIROT: Correct, Judge. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q And OSA is the upper echelon of Scientology. 20 Isn't that correct? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. OSA has knowledge of how the upper echelon 23 of Scientology is constructed. Is that correct? 24 A No. 25 Q All right. What was OSA's responsibilities when KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1138 1 you were a member? 2 A Well, it's -- it was what I testified they were 3 earlier. 4 MR. LIROT: Okay. 5 THE COURT: I agree that was testified to; 6 and if not, she very clearly defines it on the time 7 line of Scientology's harassment of Robert S. Minton. 8 I'm looking right at it. She puts it in the one 9 sentence, tells us quite clearly what she says it is. 10 MR. LIROT: All right. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q In working on all the different declarations that 13 you produced for these other lawsuits, you held yourself 14 out to be an expert, correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And you were offering your services as an expert 17 with somebody that was knowledgeable about the upper 18 echelon of Scientology. Isn't that correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q All right. What did you base your knowledge on 21 regarding your knowledge of the upper echelons of 22 Scientology? Corporate structure, however you referred to 23 it in your declarations. 24 A Primarily I'd spent I believe six months working 25 in an organization called Author Services, Inc. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1139 1 Q Okay. And what was Author Services, Inc., 2 A-U-T-H-O-R? 3 A Author -- 4 Q Author. 5 A -- as in writing a book. 6 Q Okay. What was Author Services, Inc.? 7 A Well, this was in 1982, and it was established to 8 be a literary agency for L. Ron Hubbard's fiction work. 9 Q Okay. And what were your responsibilities with 10 that corporation? 11 A I was in charge of taking care of the personnel. 12 Q Okay. What else were your job functions? 13 A That was my job function. 14 Q So you were taking care of all the personnel for 15 Author Services, Inc.? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And that was an organization created to supervise 18 or distribute all of L. Ron Hubbard's fictional work? 19 A It was an organization created to be L. Ron 20 Hubbard's -- a literary agency for L. Ron Hubbard's 21 fiction. 22 Q Okay. How did that interplay with other 23 Scientology organizations? 24 A Well, when it was first established, 25 Mr. Miscavige was the chairman of the board of ASI. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1140 1 Q Author Services, Inc.? 2 A Yes. 3 Q All right. And he was the chairman of the board. 4 How did he -- how did he get named to that position? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q What other positions did he hold in the Church at 7 that time? 8 THE COURT: Who are we talking about? 9 MR. LIROT: David Miscavige. 10 THE COURT: Don't we all know -- I mean, 11 there's no dispute over this, is there? Mr. Miscavige 12 took over for L. Ron Hubbard, and he is the head of 13 the Church and everything -- am I wrong here? 14 MR. WEINBERG: No. You're right. But he 15 was asking about 1982, which was four years before 16 Mr. Hubbard died. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, okay. 18 MR. LIROT: I guess what I'm asking, 19 Judge -- and I'll frame the question to the witness. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q What personal knowledge did you have about the 22 corporate structure of Scientology that you felt entitled 23 you to create the declarations where you would go through a 24 description of this corporate structure? 25 A Well, it was fairly anecdotal, but I had heard KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1141 1 various things about the project that existed at that time, 2 which was I believe begun in 1981, perhaps 1980, in which 3 the corporate structure of the Church was being 4 reorganized. And so I had some general knowledge that that 5 was occurring. 6 Q How did you have knowledge that the corporate 7 structure was being reorganized -- reorgi- -- reorganized? 8 MR. FUGATE: I think she just testified to 9 that, Judge. I object. It was asked and answered. 10 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. 11 A Well, I -- 12 THE COURT: I can't seem to keep my focus 13 here. I don't know whether I'm just off in la-la land 14 or what. If she just said it, I didn't hear it, so -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: What she said was it was 16 mostly anecdotal. 17 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to listen. I'm 18 going to watch you now. 19 All right. Go on ahead. 20 A I had several occasions in which I observed 21 Mr. Miscavige interacting with his subordinates. I knew, I 22 think, two or three of the people that were on the 23 particular project that did the reorganization. I had had 24 several conversations with one of the people who was on 25 staff in ASI about it. And basically what I did was to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1142 1 take that -- what I was asked to do was to take the actual 2 experience that I had and turn it into a pattern of 3 conduct. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Who asked you to do that? 6 A Well, I was asked for the pattern of conduct by 7 Mr. Berry, Mr. Leiphold, Mr. Dandar. 8 Q Not back then, Mr. Dandar didn't ask you to do 9 anything? 10 A I don't think you asked me in a particular 11 timeframe. You just asked me who asked me to do that. 12 Q Fair enough. Now, at that point, did David 13 Miscavige direct all of the -- I guess the business 14 organizations? 15 MR. WEINBERG: My objection is that they're 16 flying all over the place. She was talking about 17 Leiphold and Berry, which is in the '90s. Now he's 18 talking about, at that point, Mr. Miscavige. I think 19 we were talking about like 1981, right? Or '82. Can 20 we like focus on a date? 21 THE COURT: Okay. Are we talking about 1981 22 or '82? 23 MR. LIROT: I'm talking about the dates in 24 which she has -- she set forth in her declarations 25 that she has some knowledge of the corporate structure KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1143 1 or the leadership structure of the Church. So my 2 questions deal with those periods of time. 3 THE COURT: Okay. In her -- are you 4 speaking of her affidavits that's filed in this case 5 that dealt with the corporate structure? 6 MR. LIROT: Well, I think her affidavits 7 filed in this case say it was all speculation, and she 8 was, I think, trying to slant -- the later affidavits 9 is that she was trying to slant the information she 10 gave for whoever was asking for it. 11 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry. I thought I 12 had just read some affidavit -- which I only read the 13 affidavits that pertain to this case -- where she was 14 talking about some structure. 15 MR. LIROT: All right. Well, let's -- 16 THE COURT: I don't know what period of time 17 you're referring to. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q You prepared some affidavits for this case, for 20 the wrongful death case? 21 A No. 22 Q All right. Did you allow the use of other 23 affidavits where you described the corporate structure of 24 Scientology for use in the wrongful death case? 25 A I believe so. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1144 1 Q And you signed an affidavit or something saying, 2 "I incorporate" -- "I incorporate these other affidavits?" 3 A That may be. I haven't actually seen what's 4 being referred to as my affidavits. 5 Q All right. And you tendered this information to 6 at least two other attorneys besides Mr. Dandar, stating 7 under oath that everything that you've stated in whatever 8 declarations or affidavits you filed was true and correct. 9 Is that true? 10 A As a general statement, yes. 11 Q All right. And -- 12 THE COURT: Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe what I 13 read had to do with different files, maybe not -- 14 maybe it wasn't the corporate structure. 15 Here's, ma'am, is what I read. This is what 16 I'm referring to. I'm referring now to a notice of 17 filing dated the 3rd of February of '98. Ms. -- 18 Ms. Young at that time did file an affidavit in this 19 case, basically stating, "I find as an independently 20 retained consultant in this matter, and attached 21 hereto is a genuine copy of another affidavit by 22 affiant --" 23 THE WITNESS: By a what? 24 THE COURT: "Another affidavit by affiant on 25 August 12th, 1983, in the case of Dickerson vs. Sally KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1145 1 Jesse Raphael" -- that's a new one -- "et al., finding 2 all the statements contained in the attached affidavit 3 are true and accurate." 4 That affidavit -- and I'll show it to you -- 5 deals apparently more with various files and whether 6 they would be confidential or non-confidential. 7 I think that's what I was referring to. I 8 was wrong. I did not read one that was dealing with 9 corporate structure. 10 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think the ones 11 regarding corporate structure were incorporated in 12 this case. Prior declarations that described the 13 corporate structure I think were incorporated into 14 this case. Obviously, the record would speak for 15 itself. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Is that -- maybe that's 17 this declaration, which I didn't have a chance to 18 read. 19 MR. DANDAR: Yes, that's the one. 20 MR. LIROT: That's correct, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. LIROT: Apparently there's no cover 23 sheet on that one, but as I understand it, that was 24 one of the declarations that was incorporated into the 25 record in the wrongful death case. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1146 1 THE WITNESS: I don't need to look at this 2 one. 3 THE COURT: I guess not. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 THE COURT: Well, did she ever file a 6 declaration or an affidavit with that one stating it 7 was true? 8 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 9 MR. LIROT: Ms. -- apparently yes. 10 MR. DANDAR: Not like the other one. 11 That -- that one there on the corporate structure was 12 filed with the plaintiff's motion that had all the 13 parties in October '99. She did not file a separate 14 affidavit saying "The attached affidavit is true." 15 THE COURT: So you filed a motion and as 16 part of your motion attached this as an exhibit 17 showing it was an affidavit in another case. 18 MR. DANDAR: Correct. That was our 19 substantive evidence to support the fifth amended 20 complaint which they're now seeking to dismiss. 21 THE COURT: What, this one that -- 22 MR. DANDAR: That was just one of them. 23 THE COURT: -- Ms. Young is looking at now? 24 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then I didn't read KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1147 1 that in its entirety. I guess I'd better. 2 Not right now. You go ahead and look at it 3 so you know what they're referring to. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: If we're talking about the 6 corporate structure and whether or not David Miscavige 7 is the top of Scientology, I don't know that there's a 8 soul that would doubt that. I mean, I think everybody 9 knew that. 10 You certainly knew that. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: That's not an issue, is it? 13 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 THE WITNESS: May I hold this? 16 THE COURT: Sure. That's -- I need that 17 back, though -- 18 THE WITNESS: All right. 19 THE COURT: -- at the end of the day. 20 MR. MOXON: If we could get the date of the 21 affidavit that she's got now. 22 THE WITNESS: It is March 13th, 1997. It 23 was apparently filed in the Wollersheim case. Let me 24 see. 25 I believe it was filed in the Wollersheim KANABAY COURT REPORTER