On Sat, 20 May 2000 01:45:29 GMT, firstname.lastname@example.org (Dr Sinister) wrote:
> steve@cotseNOSPAM.com (Stephen K. Gielda) wrote in
> >I'm going to open back up...fredric can fuck himself.
Wouldn't that hurt?
>> And Fredric is a shill for scientology...
A wose insult one would be hard to imagine.
>> but this group can
>> believe what they want...his tactics behind your backs are
>> exactly the same as the scientologists.
> Fredric Rice is a Scientologist. Why do I say this? I say this
> because of a Fruedian fuck-up on Fredric's part that revealed
> his true nature.
> FRice@USA.COM (Xenu Fredric Xenu L. Xenu Rice Xenu) wrote in
> "Funny how the cultist some how thinks that because Hitler
> _accurately_ describes the religion he belonged to, he's some
> how not a Christian."
> Frederic was commenting on the issue of Hitler being a
> Christian. Fredric's argument is that Hitler understood
> christians too well to be a non-christian. Frederic
> understands Scientology way to well. By his own logic, and
> because he describes and understands Scientology so well, he
> must be Scientologist.
Fredric pointed out the fact that Hitler used Christian "god words and phrases" to induce a nation to genocide and horror: this fact says NOTHING about CONTEMPORARY Christians and Christianity. You and your criminal racket's black PR assholes eagery confuse the two issues for your own sinister, Nazi-like agenda.
That Hitler firmly believed to be a Christian himself is still highly debatable; that he claimed to be a Christian, and that he had support from many Christian churches up to the time when he turned on them, is not debatable: it is an observed fact.
Did you know that Hitler did nothing that a half-dozen people throughout the last 2000 years had not already tried--- all of whom were members of the ruling Christian elite?
Why is it so painful for a tiny few minority of Christians to not do what the majority of their sisters and brothers have already done:
learn the history of the religion and its bloody past? No one is castigating CURRENT CHRISTAINS for these monsterous blood- baths. No one is "pointing fingers" here concerning contemporary Christianity. This is not an issue of "religious bigotry" or slandering a religion: it is an issue of accurately describing and defending history, in the hopes that people learn from past misdeeds so it will never happen again.
If we choose to ignore past history, it WILL HAPPEN AGAIN. If stupid shits claim that speaking the truth about Hitler is "religious bigotry," all I can say is that if it makes them happy to falsely slander people as "religious bigots," I for one am willing to be so slandered since the issue is too important to not speak truthfully about.
I once wrote the following:
For century after century after century, the Christian church had designated the people to be despised: the religious believers called Jews the "Christ killers,"
the "enemies of God." All the religious massacres of 900 years--- by Crusaders pursuing infidels, by inquisitors hunting backsliders, by superstitious mobs fearing tales of well-poisoning--- branded Jews as accursed. When popes ordered Jews to wear badges and live in ghettos--- or when they were expelled entirely--- it told the populace that these pariahs were unfit to live among decent folk. Passion plays depicting Jews as cruel mockers of Christ, and cathedral paintings of the evil non-Christians, fanned hatred of those the church called "the perfidious Jews."
Thus, when Adolf Hitler needed a scapegoat group to rally the discontented majority to his cause and catapult himself to power, natural victims clearly marked by the church were at his disposal. The Christian public, not only in Germany but also throughout Europe, was predisposed to receive the Nazi message of Jew-hatred.
That is from James A. Haught's "Holly Horrors," pg. 157-158.
Also from that book we read:
"The Holocaust was, of course, the bitter fruit of long centuries of Christian teaching about the Jewish people."
(Dr. Franklin Littell, Temple University.)
As well as ". . . centuries of Christian hostility to Jews prepared the way for the Holocaust. The Nazis are inconcievable apart from this Christian tradition. Hitler's pongrom, for all its distinctiveness, is the zenith of a long Christian heritage of teaching and practive against Jews."
(Theologian Clark Williamson, Christian Theological Seminary, Indianapolis.)
And "The isolation of Jews into ghetto camps, the wearing of the yellow spot, the burning of Jewish books, and finally the burning of the people--- Hitler learned it all from the Church. However, the Church burned Jewish women and children alive, while Hitler granted them a quicker death, choking them first with gas." "The clergymen don't tell you whom to kill; they just tell you whom to hate."
(Dr. Dagobert Runes, Historian, child of a Holocaust victim.)
After the truth of what Nazi Germany had done was disclosed, some 15 years after the events, Pope John XXIII was agast at what had been done to the Jews in the name of God and Jesus. He wrote a prayer and addressed it to the Christian world:
"The mark of Cain is stamped upon our foreheads. Across the centuries, our brother Abel has lain in blood which we drew, and shed tears we caused by forgetting Thy love.
Forgive us, Lord, for the curse we falsely attributed to their name as Jews."
While his heart was in the right place, surely it is not his god's place to forgive Christians and Christianity, but the place of the Jews to do so.
Most of the mainstream denominations in Germany expressed support for Hitler and for his regime at some time or other.
The Catholic Bishops conference in 1933 "expressed joy that through the new state Christianity had been promoted, morality improved, and and the struggle against Bolshevism and godlessness condicted with energy and success"
In the same year, 1933 "The Catholic Students Union hails the National Socialist revolution as the greatest spiritual breakthrough of our time".
In 1934, responding to an enquiry from the Ministry for Church affairs, the Catholic Seamen's Mission listed the books and papers they provided to seamen. The list included Hitler's own anti- semitic Mein Kampf, and the newspaper Volkischer Beobachter.
In 1936, the Bishops of Hannover, Wurtemburg and Bavaria signed a statement that said in part "We, together with the Reich Church Committee, stand behind the Fuhrer in the life-struggle of the German people against Bolshevism. In this struggle, the Church mobilizes the forces of christian belief against unbelief."
In 1939, The Bishop of Hannover, Marahans, was one of the signers of a statement that explained the need for the foundation of an institute to "dejudaize" the Church. "The foundation of this institute is based on the conviction that Jewish influence in all areas of German life, including therefore that of the Church and religon, must be brought to light and eliminated."
At the outbreak of war, the Protestant bishops signed a statement which read in part "So at this hour too we join with our nation in intercession for the Fuhrer and the Reich...."
In November 1941, the Vicar General of the Diocese of Rottenburg wrote "The fact that so many believing soldiers are among the lists of the fallen justifies the conclusion that it is above all those soldiers with true Christian belief who have helped to win the great victories."
It is also true that many individual Christians and Priests resisted Hitler. However, the Churches themselves gave their followers a highly ambiguous and collaborationist message.
"The decision taken, the Fuehrer made it known to those entrusted with the Final Solution that the killings should be done as humanely as possible. This was in line with his conviction that he was observing God's injunction to cleanse the world of vermin. Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy ("I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"), he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God - so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty."
-from _Adolph Hitler_, by John Toland, copyright Doubleday Books 1976 pg 703.
The connection between the Catholic church an Facism lies not in the actual teachings of Catholicism but in the methodology of teaching it. Hitler admired the Church for this reason; its knowledge of human nature, it hierarchal organization, its discipline, its uncommonly clever tactics.
Hitler is quoted as saying, "I have followed the Church in giving our party program the character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its ammendment, every logical criticsm or attack on it, has been rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be built upon a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory, or irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it."
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.
"Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.
"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice...
"And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.
"When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."
Adolph Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922 Published in "My New Order"
Quoted in "Freethought Today" April 1990 "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . .. we need believing people." [Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933] "The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfil God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men t heir form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will." [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 10] "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work." [Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]"
--- "Shy" David Rice. A proud supporter and defender of religious rights. Help fight religious descrimination! <http://holysmoke.org/tolerate.htm>
"I want to dance." --- Lisa McPherson, 18 Nov 95