Wife should walk 10 steps behind her husband

   Date : 09-Nov-92 21:15
   From : Sean Mccullough
     To : All
Subject : Messages From E_Values

Dear HOLYSMOKErs: 
 
    The next two messages from me were exported from the EggNet E_VALUES 
Conference. (As the addressee, I have the right to cross-post them.) These 
messages are so sexist and fascistic that they are in clear violation of 
the policy of the Conference in which they were originally posted; hence, I 
refused to answer them there. Such traffic, however, is permitted here; and 
hence, I forward this excellent example of American Christian Conservatism 
to my fellow HOLYSMOKE Conferees for their entertainment, conversation, and 
other legitimate Echo Conference uses. 
 
    Please feel free to answer Martinez in any way you see fit. Please 
address all replies to the next two messages to: RICHARD MARTINEZ, as he is 
their author. I merely forwarded the messages to you here on HOLYSMOKE. 
 
                      Ad Majorem Capris Stellarum Gloriam, 
                                     Sean 
 
p.s. "AD MAJOREM CAPRIS STELLARUM GLORIAM" means "TO THE GREATER GLORY OF 
THE STARS' GOAT", or "Greater Glory to the Star Goat!" 
 
 
... OFFLINE 1.42 * High explosives applicable if truth and logic fail. 
--- 
 * Origin: Domestic Engineer C.Springs, CO (719)596-8964 (1:128/68)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943




Message #6479 - HolySmoke 
   Date : 09-Nov-92 21:18
   From : Richard Martinez
     To : All
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : -> #6481

 Area:    E_VALUES 
  Msg:    #7644 
 Date:    11-08-92 23:39 (Public) 
 From:    RICHARD MARTINEZ 
 To:      SEAN MCCULLOUGH 
 Subject: Ordination Of Women 

_______________________________________________________________________________ 
 
[SM> marks lines quoting Sean McCullough] 
 
 
 SM> "inherently good" MUST equal 
 SM> "constantly perfect and without error". This is an 
 SM> idea which comes from 
 
I disagree, if a child is allowed to do as he pleases he will grow to be 
spoiled and not know right from wrong. If a man was allowed, when he became 
angry he would kill, destroy, injure, ect. 
It is moral standards that keep the average person in line to what is 
"socially acceptable" not an "inherent good". 
Most people do what comes easy, and do not like change. If it were not for 
laws and moral values these "inherently good" people would turn on you. (They 
still do it today, wars, oppresion, racism, ect) 
 
 SM> committing atrocities, does NOT 
 SM> make all humans inherently depraved or evil, the 
 
That depends on your definition of "evil". You have your own definition of 
"good" why not make one up for evil. 
 
 SM> I also caution you about using such remarks as your 
 SM> "taking advantage of 
 SM> people/women" above. This implies that women are 
 SM> somehow less than, weaker 
 SM> than, or otherwise subordinate to men. Any sentient 
 
They are. 
Why are mens athletic competitions, seperate from womens. It is because they 
in general can't compete with men. Why isn't there a woman who is as smart as 
Einstein. They are the weaker gender. They do how ever have the ability to 
have children which men do not have. 
You hear alot about women getting raped but not to  many men. Is that because 
they do not have the strength to defend themselves, I think so. 
To say a woman is equal to a man is foolish. They are that way by 
design.(there are exceptions). 
 
 SM> falsehood. In addition, 
 SM> it will draw the wrath of our Moderator, who is a woman! 
 
This is a religious type discussion area. Many religions believe that woman 
is inferior and "should walk 10 steps behind her husband" and "should not 
show her face in public" and "should not speak unless spoken to" and should
not speak in church. 
These people who have these religions are both "sentient" and "intelligent". 
Your religion says different so you put their's down then you say I put your 
religion down for not being Christian. Do I note hypocrocy here? 
 
If the moderator is a woman then she knows who the weaker gender is and if 
she doesn't then I will arm wrestle her to "enlighten" her position 
on this subject. 
 
... OFFLINE 1.42 * A freely available QWK reader! 
--- 
 * Origin: Domestic Engineer C.Springs, CO (719)596-8964 (1:128/68)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943




Message #6480 - HolySmoke 
   Date : 09-Nov-92 21:23
   From : Richard Martinez
     To : All
Subject : E_Values Message /2

 Area:    E_VALUES 
  Msg:    #7645 
 Date:    11-09-92 00:21 (Public) 
 From:    RICHARD MARTINEZ 
 To:      SEAN MCCULLOUGH 
 Subject: Is there anybody OUT ther 

_______________________________________________________________________________ 
 SM> well, is there?? 
 
 SM> Colorado Springs, CO, needn't answer. I *know* YOU are out there! 
 
You know I am out here learning more about your Godless religions. I ahv I 
have been reading some of your Godless garbage and insane insights and 
your powerless idealism and even some of your so called values. 
It is interesting to see people putting so much effort into religions that 
will send them to hell.  (At least according to Jesus and Paul) 
What a waste. 
You may think you see the light but you need to take the flashlight out of 
your face and take a good look at reality. Don't take my word for it, look in 
the true Bible or pray to Jesus, He will tell you what reality is. 
 
 
 
... OFFLINE 1.42 * A freely available QWK reader! 
--- 
 * Origin: Domestic Engineer C.Springs, CO (719)596-8964 (1:128/68)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943




Message #6481 - HolySmoke 
   Date : 10-Nov-92 11:52
   From : Sean Mccullough
     To : Richard Martinez
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : #6479 <--> #6482

Richard -- 
 
 On 11-09-92 RICHARD MARTINEZ wrote to ALL... 
 
 RM>  SM> "inherently good" MUST equal 
 RM>  SM> "constantly perfect and without error". This is an 
 RM>  SM> idea which comes from 
 RM> 
 RM> I disagree, if a child is allowed to do as he pleases he will grow to 
 RM> be spoiled and not know right from wrong. 
 
Sorry, but you're not going to find any support for that old saw "spare the 
rod and spoil the child" from me. This typically Puritan dictum has 
resulted in the creation of far more mass-murderers, rapists, common 
thieves, and many other heinous and violent criminals than the more modern 
and enlightened idea that children should be allowed to express themselves 
relatively freely, only being submitted to such discipline as is necessary 
to prevent them from performing any actual harm. In fact, the Native 
American tribes even allow children a large degree of latitude here; they 
KNOW that a child, once having burned him/herself at the fire, will more 
reliably avoid it than if the parents waste their time trying to tell that 
to the child. 
 
All that the "spare the rod, spoil the child" tenet has EVER done is to 
teach children that it is perfectly acceptable to hurl violence at anyone 
smaller or weaker than yourself. If this is what your Jesus teaches, then 
the Romans were correct -- the greater good of all humanity requires that 
the Jesus cult be eliminated from the Planet, and its proto-religions 
carefully restricted to the barren deserts from which they sprang. 
 
 RM> If a man was allowed, when he became angry he would kill, destroy, 
 RM> injure, ect. 
 RM> It is moral standards that keep the average person in line to what is 
 RM> "socially acceptable" not an "inherent good". 
 
Again, factually wrong. CHRISTIANITY, in all of its various guises, has 
been responsible for more killing, destruction, injury, rape, pillage, and 
pestilential diseases than any other source in the past 2000 years. No, the 
ONLY reason that the human race hasn't been completely killed off by now is 
that *certain* humans, following their *inherently good* natures, 
*resisted* the massive human sacrifices demanded by the Christian 
mass-murderers (euphemistically called "Kings of Christendom") and placed 
the promptings of their own consciences over and above State obedience and 
some obsolete little book of Semitic fables. Without the social 
contributions of such Atheists, Agnostics, and Pagans -- the European 
Enlightenment -- we Westerners would still be hopelessly trapped in the 
Christianity-caused DARK AGES, against which the Enlightenment was a 
REVOLT. And, fortunately for thinking people everywhere, that revolt was 
SUCCESSFUL in the extreme -- whether the Stone Age throwbacks known as 
"Puritan Fundamentalist Christians" wanted it that way or not. Modern 
European cultures were intelligent enough to EMPOWER the Enlightenment and 
REJECT the Puritans. The only mistake they made was a mistake of mercy -- 
the European governments, trying to act enlightened, sentenced the Puritans 
to TRANSPORTATION out of Europe to the overseas Colonies. They SHOULD have 
sentenced them to EXECUTION, eliminating the Puritanical garbage from the 
Planet, as the Planet and its peoples require. 
 
 
                       <> 
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Resist much; obey NOT! 
--- 
 * Origin: Domestic Engineer C.Springs, CO (719)596-8964 (1:128/68)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943




Message #6482 - HolySmoke 
   Date : 10-Nov-92 12:15
   From : Sean Mccullough
     To : Richard Martinez
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : #6481 <--> #6483

                          <> 
 
Now, fortunately for the poor benighted Fundamentalists, the Enlightenment 
has triumphed in another way. Here in the United States, under a Bill of 
Rights ENTIRELY derived from ENLIGHTENMENT principles (NOT Christian ones, 
your historically false mythologies notwithstanding!), Puritans are free to 
detect the hopeless FALSEHOODS that they are, for some bizarre reason, 
believing, and CHANGE their beliefs to a more Enlightened, empirically 
correct, and REASONABLE set of beliefs. Hence, the EXECUTIONS that would 
have been required in older times to rid the human race of this 
pestilential religious belief are, mercifully, no longer needed. But if you 
Puritans get your dearest, frequently expressed wish -- the elimination of 
the First Amendment and establishment of the Puritan Religion as the only 
permitted religion in the United States -- then this will no longer be 
true, and the only way left to eliminate the Puritanical mental DISEASE 
from the Planet will be to KILL ALL OF YOU. Please do NOT make this 
necessary; support the First Amendment and ALL of its powers and 
consequences. 
 
 RM> (They still do it today, wars, oppresion, racism, ect) 
 
Again, nearly ALL of those evils, in the past 2000 years, have been 
inflicted by CHRISTIANS and CHRISTIAN governments on an extremely 
victimized Planet. And how about the gross, disgistine evils you haven't 
mentioned, such as SEXISM (the false idea that men are overlords over 
women) or HETEROSEXISM (the false idea that reproductive sexuality is 
superior to non-reproductive sexual expressions)?? I'll deal with THESE 
below, where you have obligingly advocated these grievous social wrongs! 
 
 
 
 RM>  SM> I also caution you about using such remarks as your 
 RM>  SM> "taking advantage of 
 RM>  SM> people/women" above. This implies that women are 
 RM>  SM> somehow less than, weaker 
 RM>  SM> than, or otherwise subordinate to men. Any sentient 
 RM> 
 RM> They are. 
 
HOGWASH. Outright and complete falsehood. And a set of LIES designed to 
justify the Puritan doctrine that women are to be the property of men all 
their lives, according to the Puritan proverb: "A woman is NEVER to have 
her own will"!! How Neanderthalic! How long have you been out of your cave, 
anyway Richard? 
 
 RM> Why are mens athletic competitions, seperate from womens. It is 
 RM> because they in general can't compete with men. 
 
Again, pure LIES. In fact, many sports are now either totally or partially 
gender-integrated; tennis is almost totally so, and the aquatic sports are
rapidly integrating. In fact, you have the cause-effect relationship 
totally reversed. Sports aren't segregated because women are weaker than 
men; they're segregated to continue support of the LIE that they are, 
because Puritan Christians are AFRAID that the men will be shown to be 
equal AT BEST. Rather than face that, the Christians and their controlled 
governments have resisted integration of any and all sports that could show 
this FACT to be true -- the equality of women -- and carefully kept women 
out of all others. Remember Billy Jean King's tennis victory over some 
sexist asshole? THAT is typical of athletic competition between men and 
women, NOT the inequality that your false MYTHS teach. 
 
                       <> 
 
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Long Live the Great Beast 666! 
--- 
 * Origin: Domestic Engineer C.Springs, CO (719)596-8964 (1:128/68)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943




Message #6483 - HolySmoke 
   Date : 10-Nov-92 12:48
   From : Sean Mccullough
     To : Richard Martinez
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : #6482 <--> #6484

                        <> 
 RM> Why isn't there a woman who is as smart as Einstein. 
 
Again, an OUTRIGHT LIE. Einstein HIMSELF gratefully acknowledged the 
contributions of numerous scientific women, especially Marie Curie whose 
experimentation with nuclear radiation was a major part of the inspiration 
for the General Theory of Relativity. As Einstein lived during a 
considerable part of Madame Curie's later life, I daresay he was a far 
better judge of her intellectual and scientific acumen than any member of a 
generation below his, including ours. And HIS testimony says that you are 
full of caca! 
 
 RM> They are the weaker gender. 
 
I believe that I have destroyed all the pillar arguments you have 
marshalled for this piece of Puritanical hogwash. Every one of them I have 
reliably shown to be a LIE and an outright MALICIOUS FALSEHOOD. Every one 
of them! Hence, I can say with greatest confidence that THIS statement is a 
malicious lie also, based on your internal desire to reduce women to the 
status of agricultural brood mares, always the property of someone else. I 
wonder if your woman-hating, misogynistical attitude derives from the fact 
that YOU can't get some woman to be YOUR wholly-owned breeder slave! It 
really DOES sound like you aren't getting laid, that's for DAMN sure! 
 
 RM> You hear alot about women getting raped but not to  many men. Is that 
 RM> because they do not have the strength to defend themselves, I think so. 
 
More lies, Richard? The main reason you don't hear of many men being raped 
isn't that it doesn't happen -- it DOES -- but that men, too macho to admit 
that they were violated (usually by their good Christian parents, too!) 
DON'T report it. BOYS are the children whose parents are more likely to be 
raped with impunity by these parents, as GIRLS are more easily inspected 
for damage from rape -- and more readily BELIEVED when they report it, 
because of such false beliefs that you spout off here. But this, too, is 
changing; and more and more incest perpetrators are receiving at least SOME 
punishment for their crimes. Once we adopt a standard of COMPULSORY 
EXECUTION for parent rapists, it will end. But your impotent Jesus cult has 
aided and abetted such rape, not impeded it in any way. 


                         <> 
 
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Puritanism: CHOSEN Mental Illness of Imbeciles! 
--- 
 * Origin: Domestic Engineer C.Springs, CO (719)596-8964 (1:128/68)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943




Message #6484 - HolySmoke 
   Date : 10-Nov-92 13:07
   From : Sean Mccullough
     To : Richard Martinez
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : #6483 <--> #6485

                        <> 
 
 RM> To say a woman is equal to a man is foolish. They are that way by 
 RM> design.(there are exceptions). 
 
Again, lies! To give women social equality to men is CORRECT, RIGHT, JUST, 
and PROPER -- whether the Semites' tribal thunder-demon likes it or not! 
 
 RM>  SM> falsehood. In addition, 
 RM>  SM> it will draw the wrath of our Moderator, who is a woman! 
 RM> 
 RM> This is a religious type discussion area. Many religions believe that 
 RM> woman 
 RM> is inferior and "should walk 10 steps behind her husband" and "should 
 RM> not show her face in public" and "should not speak unless spoken to" and 
 RM> should not speak in church. 
 RM> These people who have these religions are both "sentient" and 
 RM> "intelligent". 
 
Again, false. The peoples holding these SEXIST, BARBARIC ideas are 
simply unwilling to THINK rather than BELIEVE -- much like yourself, I 
daresay! People who ARE sentient and intelligent REJECT such ideas as the 
submission of women to men! Even in the Muslim nations, whose bitter 
suppression of female independence and sovereignty is legendary, these

ideas are being REJECTED by thinking people. As soon as your Mullah cousins 
are disempowered in Iran, these religious-based ideas will be hopelessly 
extinct. Even now, in the Iran-Iraq War, the Iranians treated their women 
as you recommend above; the Iraqis, on the other hand, treated them 
equally and even placed them in combat roles. IRAQ KICKED IRAN'S ASS in 
that War; and, in fact, the only reason Kuwait is still an independent 
nation today is that ANOTHER nation where women are mostly equal to men -- 
the United States -- came in on its side, again with women in military 
roles (including the first time that women found themselves in combat). In 
fact, the SINGLE national armed forces with the BEST track record against 
the blatantly sexist Arab culture is more than HALF FEMALE -- that of 
ISRAEL. Golda Meir KNEW what she was doing! Care to take on the Israeli 
womens' army corps, Richard? I assure you that YOU WILL LOSE -- even if you 
take these women on ONE-ON-ONE! Or, perhaps, would you prefer our own U.S. 
Womens' Marines? THAT's a challenge I'd LOVE to witness! Same goes for the 
WAC's, the WAVE's, and the WAF's! (My apologies to veterans who can correct 
me on the proper labels for the womens' military units in the U.S.; I was 
rejected from service at 17 years of age for back trouble and was never 
allowed to serve.) 
 
                        <>

 
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Jesus saves; Moses invests; the Bhagwan spends, and the
Mongol hordes! 
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SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943




Message #6485 - HolySmoke 
   Date : 10-Nov-92 13:28
   From : Sean Mccullough
     To : Richard Martinez
Subject : E_Values Message /1
Replies : #6484 <-

                          <> 
 
 RM> Your religion says different so you put their's down then you say I 
 RM> put your 
 RM> religion down for not being Christian. Do I note hypocrocy here? 
 
No sir. I put yours/theirs down, not because they are or aren't Christian, 
but because they are SEXIST, HETEROSEXIST, RACIST, VIOLENT, BARBARIC, and 
UN-ENLIGHTENED. This planet does NOT need any more of such worthless 
garbage! Your non-existent Jesus will never return; chances are, he never 
lived at all but was a mythical figure made up from other mythical figures 
of the times before his alleged time. The WRONGS, VIOLENCE, TYRANNIES, 
INJUSTICES, and other UNQUESTIONABLE EVILS due to Christianity in general, 
and YOUR sect thereof, Fundamentalist Puritanism SPECIFICALLY, are far 
greater than all atrocities due to any other religion, or set of religions, 
in all of history. And the ONLY significant competition that the 
Puritanical Protestant Christian cult has in this competition of historical 
atrocities is the ONLY other major world religion teaching that women are 
inferior to men -- ISLAM, whose bloody and atrocious history is as bad as 
the Christians', and whose barbaric and blood-stained teachings need to be 
removed from the Planet likewise and for the same reasons. Fortunately for 
Muslim culture, this sexist barbarity is under SERIOUS attack by Muslim 
thinkers, and we may yet see an Islam where reasonably enlightened 
attitudes about women prevail. If this happens, Islam will ASSUREDLY 
survive Protestant Puritanical Christianity as a major world religion. 
 
No, Richard, I attacked the Fundamentalist Christian (Puritan) religion 
because it is a barbaric, primitive, dark-age dangerous cult unworthy of 
thinking, civilized human beings. I have reliably demonstrated that many of 
its worst tenets are readily visible as outright lies, not using any 
religious beliefs of my own at all but readily observable empirical FACTS 
which any human can readily obtain by observation in the outside world. In 
fact, the only need for reference to books in my arguments has been the 
occasional reference to the histories of generations before our own. And 
there, I stuck to readily verifiable facts, rather than in any way rely 
upon faith, feelings, or books of fairy-tales such as the Bible is. Just 
because some ancient Semitic tribes treated women as property DOES NOT mean 
that this is the way modern Western cultures ought to conduct themselves. 
And ALL you have to support the contrary assertion is a tenuous tissue of 
lies, falsehoods, and statements supported solely by blind faith -- 
something in which thinking humans REFUSE to traffick, EVER. 
 
     Now, let us compare how YOU have chosen to treat MY religion. Despite 
the fact that you can NOT show ANY history of sexism, racism, warfares, 
religious persecutions of other faiths, or any other OBSERVABLE social 
evils relating to my Wiccan religion, you INSIST that we worship Satan and 
demons (outright LIE); use poisons and drugs as part of our worship (LIE 
again!); human sacrifice (BLATANT LIE); and then draw the conclusion from 
the "proof" offered by this fabrication of outright falsehoods that we are 
Satanists; that we are evil; and that we are in the business of luring 
people to your "hell" (whose existence we Wiccans steadfastly DENY). This 
has shown us NOTHING about Wicca AT ALL; but it has told us MUCH about YOUR 
rather vile, foul, and evil dangerous cult! Your behaviour has told the 
rest of the BBSing world that Puritans are willing to LIE, KILL, CHEAT, and 
STEAL in order to IMPOSE their religion on those who are unwilling to 
accept it. 
 
And, frankly Sir, *I* am UNWILLING to accept such a slimy way of life, 
belief, and thought! And ALL truly CIVILIZED and THINKING humans agree with 
me here! 
 
                            --Sean 
 
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Resist much; obey NOT! 
--- 
 * Origin: Domestic Engineer C.Springs, CO (719)596-8964 (1:128/68)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943




Message #6486 - HolySmoke 
   Date : 10-Nov-92 13:43
   From : Sean Mccullough
     To : All
Subject : Replies To Martinez

Hello fellow HOLYSMOKErs! 
 
     Just wanted to address this note to the rest of the Jeezo-grovellers 
here on HOLYSMOKE. I do NOT really advocate the elimination of all 
Christians from the planet -- at least, not YET.  :)  All I want the 
Christian religious community to do is to treat Fundamentalist 
Puritanism as what it IS -- a DEVIANT, DISEASED MUTATION of their Faith. 
Just because Puritanism NEEDS to be wiped out -- CURED, if you Will -- does 
NOT mean that the remainder of Christianity must needs suffer the same 
things! The mainstream of Christendom is the PATIENT, NOT the DISEASE!!  :) 
 
Therefore, to the Mainstream Protestants, Roman Catholics, and Eastern 
Orthodox Christians on this Echo, my heartfelt apologies. After all, it's 
not YOUR fault that the likes of JBS and Richard Martinez claim to be 
co-religionists of yours. 
 
When I state to the likes of Martinez that his religion needs to be 
eliminated from the Planet, I am referring to the PARASITIC DISEASE which 
is the Puritan Cult, and which is sapping the lifeblood out of the true 
Christian Religions, and making the mainstream Christians an all-time high 
number of enemies in the world. 
 
                          93 -- Sean 
 
 
... OFFLINE 1.42 * Exchangers of freedom for safety deserve neither one. 
--- 
 * Origin: Domestic Engineer C.Springs, CO (719)596-8964 (1:128/68)
SEEN-BY: 102/2 850 851 890 943


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