RVY about the Rinder visit:
10 Q Did you ever -- were you ever approached by 11 Mr. Rinder after you filed declaration for Mr. Berry in the 12 Fishman case? 13 A I was approached by Mike Rinder after the case was 14 done. They had withdrawn their suit and the case was over. 15 And I don't recall how long after that it was that he 16 contacted me. 17 Q The Church of Scientology dismissed its suit 18 against Mr. Fishman? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And where were you living when Mr. Rinder 21 contacted you? 22 A Newport Beach, which is maybe 50 miles south of 23 Los Angeles. 24 Q And did Mr. Rinder tell you why he wanted to see 25 you?
95 1 A Yeah. He said he wanted to just work things out, 2 you know, and settle some differences. And could we meet 3 and talk it over? 4 Q And did you meet? 5 A I said, "I really am not interested. I don't have 6 anything to work out. No thank you," and hung up the phone. 7 Q What happened next? 8 A A couple of days later he called me again, and he 9 made the request again, you know, saying, "Come on. Let's 10 just work things out, sort it out here; sort out our 11 difference." And I said, "I have got nothing to sort out," 12 and hung up on him again. 13 Q And then? 14 A And then a few days later, Stacy called me. She 15 was living in Seattle. We had separated for a while. She 16 wanted to just -- she was sick of the work. You know, it 17 had been intensive. We had been doing this for a year and a 18 half, and sometimes seven days a week. And she wanted to 19 just get away from everything. So she was up in Seattle, 20 and she called and said, "Mike Rinder called me. He wants 21 to meet and just work things out." So she urged me to do 22 it. I said I didn't think it was a great idea, but since 23 she requested, I said, "Okay." 24 So I flew up to Seattle -- I told her, "Go ahead, 25 set up the meeting." And I flew up to Seattle to her place,
96 1 and we -- we met with Mike Rinder and Mike Sutter. 2 Q Who's Mike Sutter? 3 A Mike Sutter was one of Mr. Miscavige's aides. I 4 don't know what his position was at that time, but he was -- 5 had always been one of Mr. -- Mr. Miscavige's aides. 6 Q And in '94, what was Mr. Rinder's position? 7 A He was -- he was OSA at that time also. 8 THE COURT: He was what? 9 THE WITNESS: He was OSA at that time, 10 Department 20. 11 THE COURT: I mean, but what? Was he in charge 12 of it or -- 13 THE WITNESS: I believe he was, yes. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I do take it from the last -- 15 Could I ask -- 16 Is it 1994? Is that the -- circa the time 17 period that we're talking about here? 18 THE WITNESS: Maybe -- no. Maybe a little bit 19 later than that. I don't recall. I'm sorry. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q You mean '94 or '95 -- 22 A It was after the Fishman case was done, so -- I'm 23 trying to remember -- 24 No, it wasn't '94. It was more like '96. 25 Q Okay. And OSA -- Mr. Rinder being the head of
97 1 OSA, do you know what corporation OSA was in? 2 A Well, the last I knew it was just part of the 3 Church of Scientology California or International. They 4 could have moved it at that time. I don't know. 5 Q Okay. So what did Mr. Rinder tell you when you 6 met with him finally? 7 A Well, you know, the first part of it, since we had 8 been on opposite sides of the litigation and philosophical 9 fence, so to speak, the front end was just social for a 10 while. And then he just said he wanted to sort things out 11 and work things out with us. And this was -- this went on 12 for a number of hours. 13 And I should say the meetings went -- extended 14 across six days. And it took -- it took about -- a couple 15 of days before we got around to more what they really wanted 16 to do. 17 Q All right. Let me interrupt you for a minute. 18 During the six-day period of neg- -- or meeting 19 with him, were you involved in any case? 20 A No.
99 1 Q All right. Let's go back to '94. Mr. Rinder's in 2 Seattle. You finally hear him as to what he wants you to 3 do. And what is that? 4 A Well, that came, finally, at the last day of the 5 meetings. And I can fill in the front end later if you 6 want. 7 But we met at their hotel, the Doubletree, which 8 is close to the Seattle airport. And he had two sets of 9 documents that he wanted me to -- he wanted us to sign. And 10 he said they were just drafts and we could talk about it. 11 And he showed us these two documents. They were both more 12 than one page. I don't remember how many. One document was 13 to be private, to be used just between us, keep confidential 14 and secret, and the other one was to be able to then be used 15 publicly. 16 The secret one had an amount of money that we were 17 to be paid which came to -- I've never been able to remember 18 exactly -- some odd figure, like 280,000, 240,000. Which 19 you can ask me or I can say later how that figure came out. 20 Q Well, what was the money for? 21 A The -- they wanted us -- well, this is what all 22 the documents were for. The discussions had come up of -- 23 they wanted us to get out of the consultation business. 24 During the meetings prior to that last day, they 25 said, you know, "Isn't there another line of work you'd
100 1 really like to do?" And they knew something about us then. 2 They knew that I liked the Internet, you know, and desktop 3 publishing. I had been a writer from -- ever since the 4 sixth grade. 5 "Isn't there other things you'd like to do?" 6 "Well, there are a lot of things we'd like to do." 7 And this is how we were sort of brought along. 8 "Wouldn't you like to travel?" And, "What would 9 it take to do this? What would it take?" "Well, if I did 10 this, I would need new computer systems." "What would that 11 cost?" "Oh, I don't know. $20,000," you know. And, "What 12 would it take for such and such or another --" "Don't you 13 guys have some debts?" "Yeah." Well, how many debts have 14 you got?" And that's how this figure came up, you know. 15 And, "How long would it take you to -- to get this going?" 16 "Oh, about five years." "Well, what do you think you would 17 need for an annual income in that time?" "Oh, I don't know. 18 Such and such." 19 And so this is how this odd figure, I realized 20 later, came -- came up: That if we accepted this amount, 21 then all we had to do was we had to retract and recant all 22 of our declarations and our testimony and say that we had 23 perjured ourselves, and that we had to implicate Mr. Berry, 24 and said that he had instructed us to do this, and we had 25 written declarations at his instructions.
101 1 And when I saw this, first of all, my -- my 2 stomach just fell. I was sick at my stomach. 3 And I said to him -- I said, "Well, first of all, 4 he never told me to write anything." And Mr. Rinder said, 5 "Oh, we can work this out. Remember, this is just a draft. 6 We'll work this out." It was always this, you know, "We'll 7 sort this out." 8 And I said something else. 'Cause I just looked 9 at this -- 10 And -- and then we went into -- Stacy and I went 11 into the other room. And I said, "No way." I had never -- 12 you know, I didn't like it from the start. She was the one 13 that wanted to do it. I went -- I said, "I'm not going to 14 sign this. This is a piece of crap. This is -- this is -- 15 they're asking me to say I'm a perjurer and to implicate 16 people, and they're going to give me 200 and whatever 17 thousand dollars." 18 Oh, also a gag order. I couldn't talk about 19 Scientology publicly. I couldn't assist in any -- anybody 20 else in litigation. I couldn't assist in any other way. 21 And I also -- the agreement also required that I would have 22 to turn over all my files. All -- or both of us would turn 23 all of our files and records to them. So we basically just 24 expunge everything we have, admit -- you know, confess that 25 we're a bunch of perjurers, implicate Graham Berry, and they
102 1 give us money and we could walk. And that's how we were 2 going to get -- that's how we were going to sort it out. 3 So I came back in, after telling Stacy, "No way," 4 and I just threw the papers on the table and said, you know, 5 "Forget it." 6 Q The papers, were they declarations for you to 7 sign? 8 A They were in the form of declarations but they 9 were not as you might recognize them, because they were 10 drafts. They were 8-and-a-half-by-11 paper, and they were 11 not in a form that you might present to the court, because 12 we were going to work out the wording. So they weren't 13 ready for our signatures at that time. But they were in the 14 wording of a declaration, you know, with even paragraphs 15 that were numbered. 16 Q What was Stacy's position on all this? 17 A She agreed with me to not -- not to do it. 18 As I said, prior to that, she -- she wanted it. 19 She said, "Listen, I --" she wanted out of it. Says, "If 20 we're going to get out of it, let's just see if we can get 21 out of it and start a new life." 22 Q Was she willing to sign the declarations where she 23 admitted that she was a perjurer and Graham Berry made her 24 lie under oath? 25 A No. When I said, "I'm not going to sign this,"
103 1 she says, "Okay. I'm with you." 2 Q Okay. But before you said you weren't going to 3 sign it, did she express her opinion as to what she wanted 4 to do? 5 A No. Because when we walked back into the 6 bathroom, I didn't even ask her opinion. I just said, "This 7 is a bunch of crap." 8 Q All right. And when you came out and said to 9 Mr. Rinder, "No thanks," did he make any other offers, like, 10 "You don't have to recant," or, "You don't have to go after 11 Mr. Berry," or anything like that? 12 A No. Just his first reaction was, "Well, come on. 13 Let's talk about this." And I said, "I've got nothing to 14 talk about. I've seen what you're trying to do, and there's 15 no way that this is negotiable. And I don't want to hear 16 from you again." And his last words were, you know, "If you 17 walk out of here, you know, we can destroy you." 18 Q Did you reply to that? 19 A I said, "Go for it." 20 Q And what happened after you walked out? 21 A We left the hotel, went back to her place, which 22 is maybe 25 minutes away. And there was a message waiting 23 on the phone from Mr. Rinder, which was suddenly a change of 24 mood; no longer, you know, a threat or anything. Just like, 25 "Hey, guys, I know things got a little out of hand. You
104 1 know, things are a little heated. Come on, let's just sit 2 down and, you know, work this out," and a lot of this, you 3 know, blah, blah, blah. So that message was on the phone. 4 Q And did you ever get back with Mr. Rinder? 5 A No. We went out to dinner. And I told her, 6 "Let's --" no way were we going to call him back. So we 7 just went out to dinner. I stayed over. 8 And the next day, he called again and left another 9 message, and I didn't call back. And I flew back to Newport 10 Beach at that time. 11 And two days later, after I got back to Newport 12 Beach, he called me, and I picked up the phone, and he says, 13 "Hey, come on. We'll just -- we'll sort this out." I said, 14 "I have nothing to sort out with you," and, "Don't you ever 15 call me again," and hung up the phone. And that was the end 16 of that.
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