Robert Vaughn Young June 18 morning 2002
2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
7 Representative of the ESTATE OF
10 vs. VOLUME 3
11 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
12 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
17 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
CONTENTS: Testimony of Robert Vaughn Young.
DATE: June 18, 2002, morning session.
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
21 St. Petersburg, Florida.
22 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR,
24 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorneys for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
MR. LEE FUGATE and
12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
17 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
19 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
20 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
21 Attorney for LMT.
1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
2 PAGE LINE
3 REDIRECT Mr. Dandar 317 17
CROSS Mr. Weinberg 343 2
4 Recess 354 24
Reporter's Certificate 355 1
1 (The proceedings were resumed at 9:03 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: Good morning. The videotapes -- I
3 have gone through them. Most of them I've made a
4 decision on. Some of them I have not. To resolve
5 it during the first break or this afternoon's break,
6 I'm going to need to meet with lead counsel for the
7 church, for the defense -- I mean for the estate,
8 and the lawyer for LMT. So if he could be
9 available? We'll just go in chambers. There are a
10 few of them I just can't determine from my
11 knowledge. Or I may have some -- some where I'm not
12 sure. We'll see if we can get some agreement.
13 MR. WEINBERG: And you want to do that during
14 the lunch break?
15 THE COURT: No. I really want to do it during
16 a morning or an afternoon break. We'll just take
17 about a half-hour break and get it done.
18 MR. WEINBERG: We need to call Mr. McGowan.
19 THE COURT: Yes. I don't want to do it without
20 him since technically he is -- as attorney for LMT
21 or I guess -- Mr. Bunker? Is that his name?
22 MR. WEINBERG: Both, yes.
23 THE COURT: May have some input on this. So as
24 soon as that can be done. I can turn them over.
25 I'll have to do an order, but I think that can come
1 after the fact.
3 Now, Mr. Dandar, you had indicated you wouldn't
4 have time to go look at these, but I presume you
5 want a copy of them.
6 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to have a copy of the
7 summary. And I think --
8 THE COURT: No. You can't have a copy of the
9 summary --
10 MR. DANDAR: Oh.
11 THE COURT: -- because I'm not giving everybody
12 all of that.
13 MR. DANDAR: I --
14 THE COURT: That's going to be sealed.
15 MR. DANDAR: I sent a letter to Mr. Keane, I
16 believe, asking for any and all videos of, and then
17 I've listed Jesse Prince, Teresa Summers, myself, my
18 clients. I'm not interested in anybody else.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Well, he's not going -- I
20 can tell you this, he's not going to turn them over
21 to you.
22 MR. DANDAR: Okay. So --
23 THE COURT: Because he's going to turn them
24 over to me and he's going to do whatever I tell him.
25 MR. DANDAR: Whatever procedure you set up
1 I'll -- I'd like to be there and --
2 THE COURT: What I'm going to do is order them
3 to be released. If you want a copy of them you'll
4 get a copy of them.
5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right.
6 THE COURT: Okay?
7 MR. DANDAR: You're going to order -- I missed
8 something. You're going to order to be released,
10 THE COURT: Probably about 150 tapes.
11 MR. DANDAR: I don't want 150 tapes, no.
12 THE COURT: Well, then you'll have to I guess
13 figure out how you're going to do it, because I
14 don't know that I'm going to tell you all exactly
15 what I'm releasing.
16 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
17 THE COURT: You know, I guess what you can do
18 is tell Mr. Keane what it is you want, and then if
19 they're part of whatever part of the tapes that I've
20 ordered him to release, he'll release those.
21 MR. DANDAR: That's how I'll do it.
22 THE COURT: Okay. All right.
23 Mr. Young, you want to resume the stand,
25 Madam Clerk, I've had a chance to read these
1 and so these can be filed in my book. I didn't get
2 through all of them. The ones that I hadn't gotten
3 through I'll have to bring them back tomorrow.
4 Madam Clerk, how are you coming on books down
6 THE CLERK: I'm going to need a couple -- at
7 least three more.
8 THE COURT: At least three more? I may be
9 running out of notebooks. I'm probably not, but I'm
10 running out of those that I can throw the stuff out
11 to give her the notebooks.
12 MR. WEINBERG: (Inaudible.)
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm handling to the clerk
15 the request for judicial notice that contains all of
16 the notice of filing additional documents in support
17 of the plaintiff's motion to add parties.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. DANDAR: What you found over there --
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 MR. DANDAR: It's right there.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. DANDAR: And I'd like to mark that as our
24 next exhibit.
25 THE CLERK: Number 103.
1 MR. DANDAR: And move it into evidence.
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. WEINBERG: That's fine. We don't have any
5 THE COURT: That's plaintiff's, right?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
7 And then just from yesterday, Exhibit 203,
8 which was the list of Vaughn Young's affidavits or
9 declarations, and I just hadn't offered them.
10 MR. DANDAR: I have no objection.
11 THE COURT: Number 203? Is that this page
12 right here?
13 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
15 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'd also like to let you
16 know on the record that Mr. Young advised me this
17 morning that yesterday late afternoon after 4 was
18 very difficult for him. He's in excruciating pain.
19 He took three Tylenols which helped. But this
20 morning he's nauseated and doesn't feel too well.
21 But he wants to get this finished.
22 THE COURT: All right. I'm hoping that --
23 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have many questions, so
24 it's up to him.
25 THE COURT: All right. You're done?
1 MR. DANDAR: Oh, you're done?
2 MR. WEINBERG: No, I said I don't have many
4 THE COURT: Many questions, all right.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Can I proceed?
6 THE COURT: You may.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
8 THE COURT: Good morning, Mr. Young.
9 THE WITNESS: Good morning, your Honor.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Good morning, Mr. Young.
11 THE COURT: What day is today? Does anybody --
12 MR. WEINBERG: It's Tuesday.
13 THE COURT: By that I mean what number date?
14 Number eight?
15 MR. LIROT: No, no, no. You're talking about
16 hearing date?
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 MR. LIROT: 25.
19 THE CLERK: 18th.
20 MR. LIROT: But the 18th of June.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q A few cleanup matters, Mr. Young. Yesterday
24 Mr. Dandar showed you some pages that you said you had
25 copied from the public IRS file concerning the church's
1 submission to get the tax exemption?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you remember that?
4 What I want to hand up to you and have the -- and
5 you remember it was part of a section of the submission but
6 not the whole part of the section.
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. I want to hand you up the whole part of the
9 section and have you look at it and identify it so that we
10 can have the whole part and not just a couple pages.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Just mark this the next exhibit,
13 THE COURT: What is this? I'm sorry.
14 MR. WEINBERG: This is the church's response in
15 the tax-exempt submission to the question about the
16 Sea Org to the IRS that Mr. Young put in a couple of
17 pages from that response yesterday, and this is the
18 whole response.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 MR. WEINBERG: This is 209. The whole response
21 to that question.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. WEINBERG: That would be 209.
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q If you could just look at Exhibit 209, tell us if
1 that appears to be the full response to question 3A, which
2 is the -- from which you drew the -- I think you'll
3 recognize them -- the page 3-5 which had the ranks of the
4 Sea Org people?
5 A I'm looking at it now.
6 Q Okay.
7 A All right. I've looked at it. And your question?
8 Q My question is, is -- this is what you saw in the
9 file at the IRS, correct? This entire response?
10 A Yes. It does appear to be that.
11 Q All right. And what you did in your declaration
12 is you just took a page or two from this answer, is that
14 A Yes. It was just what was relevant to the
15 declaration I was making, which was just to the point of
16 brevet rank.
17 Q I couldn't hear that last part.
18 A I'm sorry. My voice isn't very good this morning.
19 I took just the point that was relevant to the
20 declaration, which was -- which I was addressing brevet
22 Q I see. But in this declaration, the Church of
23 Scientology, for example, on the last page, describes that
24 the Sea Org is not incorporated nor is it an unincorporated
25 association, and then goes on to talk about the fact that it
1 doesn't have a structure and things like that, correct?
2 A It does say that.
3 MR. WEINBERG: I offer Exhibit 209 into
4 evidence, your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Any objection?
6 MR. DANDAR: No. Except that I object to the
7 form of the question because Mr. Weinberg is asking
8 him does it say that, he's saying correct that's
9 what it says, but the record should not reflect that
10 he's agreeing with what it says --
11 THE COURT: That's true. I mean, I'm sure
12 Mr. Weinberg understands that --
13 MR. DANDAR: All right.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q All right. Now, you can put that down, Mr. Young.
16 Secondly, I asked you yesterday with regard to -- I showed
17 you a couple of pages from a deposition, if you remember, a
18 deposition that was taken in Los Angeles in Bridge
19 Publications versus FACTNet. Do you remember that?
20 A If it was in the last hour of yesterday --
21 Q Well, I think it was toward the beginning, but
22 remember you thought it was in Colorado and I showed you
23 that the transcript said --
24 A Oh.
25 Q -- it was Los Angeles?
1 A Yes. I remember that now.
2 Q And November 5th, 1997? And I also said isn't
3 this a deposition that Mr. Dandar represented you at? And I
4 think your response was you didn't remember.
5 I want to show you the full transcript, if I can,
6 and have you --
7 MR. WEINBERG: I've got the quotes, your Honor.
8 MR. DANDAR: And Judge, I would like the full
9 transcript filed in this court, and I'd like to be
10 able to see if my May, '97 letter was produced at
11 that deposition as Ms. Yingling alluded to in her
12 deposition -- her testimony before this court.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I don't know if that's the
14 deposition that she was talking about, but -- but
15 all right -- in any event -- I don't think
16 Ms. Yingling said anything like that, but whatever.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Let me hand you this. And we'll -- we'll mark
19 this particular transcript.
20 THE COURT: What was the name of the case?
21 MR. WEINBERG: It's Bridge Publications, which
22 is a Church of Scientology -- is it an organization?
23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Publication -- it's a religious
24 publishing company.
25 MR. WEINBERG: It's a religious publishing
2 Versus FACTNet. And Mr. Dandar wants this
3 marked, so we'll mark this as an Exhibit 210.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 BY MR. WEINBERG:
6 Q And all I'm going to ask you, Mr. Young, is to
7 look at the first page, which indicates -- if you -- if you
8 go to -- to -- if you turn the first page and look at the
9 back and look at the bottom of page 676, do you see that?
10 A I hope so. Go ahead.
11 Q Mr. Dandar says, "Ken Dandar, representing
12 Mr. Young." Do you see that?
13 A Yes, I do.
14 Q And Mr. Rosen says, "Mr. Dandar, you're not
15 representing parties to this case; you're just
16 representing -- you're just appearing as counsel for the
17 witness." "Mr. Dandar: Yes."
18 Now, does that refresh your recollection
19 Mr. Dandar served as your counsel in November of 1997 in a
20 deposition in the FACTNet case?
21 A I don't remember the particular deposition, but I
22 accept this record as being accurate.
23 Q And my question to you is, this is just a month
24 after Mr. Minton purchased the house for you and Stacy to
25 live in and the cats, you said yesterday, correct?
1 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. That's not
2 the evidence from yesterday.
3 MR. WEINBERG: What's the evidence?
4 THE COURT: Well --
5 THE WITNESS: I testified --
6 THE COURT: I don't remember what he testified
7 to exactly, but whatever it was he said yesterday.
8 THE WITNESS: I -- I've always objected to the
9 form of Mr. Dandar bought us a house. I --
10 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, you mean?
11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Mr. Minton, when I
12 explained yesterday that he and his wife were the
13 ones on the bill of sale and agreed to that.
14 BY MR. WEINBERG:
15 Q Oh. But in any event, it's about a month after
16 Mr. and Mrs. Minton were on a bill of sale buying a house
17 for you and -- $250,000 house for you and your then-wife
18 Stacy to live in, is that right?
19 A As a sanctuary. As long as that's clear, yes.
20 Q Okay. Now, did you pay Mr. Dandar to appear in
21 your behalf in Los Angeles in November of 1997?
22 A I don't recall if I did. I may not have. There
23 may have been one of those single daughter transactions but
24 possibly not.
25 Q Well, did somebody like Mr. Minton pay Mr. Dandar
1 to be at your side in that deposition?
2 A I don't know.
3 Q Do you know who paid the expenses of Mr. Dandar to
4 go out to California?
5 A No.
6 Q You didn't, though, did you?
7 A No.
8 Q No, being yes, you did not.
9 A I did not.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Now, let me have the reporter
11 (sic) mark one more document.
12 THE COURT: The reporter?
13 MR. WEINBERG: The clerk.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 MR. WEINBERG: It's the 25th day.
16 THE COURT: That's right.
17 MR. WEINBERG: 211.
18 THE COURT: Who is your next witness,
19 Mr. Dandar?
20 MR. DANDAR: Jesse Prince.
21 THE COURT: And is he available? Because I
22 suspect he's not going to be much longer.
23 MR. DANDAR: I asked him last night to be
24 available as soon as I called him.
25 THE COURT: Well, why don't you call him.
1 MR. WEINBERG: This is literally the last
3 MR. DANDAR: And if Jesse Prince is going to be
4 more than a day, I do have Brian Haney flying in
5 from Ohio, so he can testify tomorrow morning. And
6 I'd like to put him on out of turn because he won't
7 be available when we come back on July 8th.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Well, you can put him on
10 MR. DANDAR: All right.
11 THE COURT: I don't know how long Mr. Prince
12 will be.
13 MR. DANDAR: Can I go ahead and call Mr. Prince
15 THE COURT: Yes. Let's just take a few minutes
16 for him to do that.
17 MR. WEINBERG: That's fine.
18 THE COURT: So we don't have to have an undue
20 Would somebody -- Mr. Fugate, perhaps, if you
21 could call Mr. McGowan and see when he's available
22 for us? Because maybe while we're waiting for
23 Mr. Prince we could get that done.
24 MR. MOXON: I just called him, your Honor. He
25 said he's going to try to come over here around
2 THE COURT: Okay. You want to call him and see
3 if he's available now?
4 MR. MOXON: Sure. I'll try.
5 THE COURT: Ask him how long he's going to be,
6 if he has to dress and all that.
7 (Mr. Dandar making phone call.)
8 MR. DANDAR: 30 minutes? 40. Okay.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Shall I proceed?
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q I've shown you an e-mail and ask you to identify
14 this as an e-mail --
15 THE COURT: I'm sorry, before you go on, I
16 just -- did you -- you did mark this as an exhibit;
17 this was the transcript with Mr. Dandar?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Dandar asked that that be
19 marked --
20 THE COURT: Right.
21 MR. WEINBERG: -- so I did. It's 210.
22 MR. DANDAR: It's only volume 2, though.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
24 THE COURT: The -- you wanted -- you wanted it
25 for one purpose; he wanted the whole thing for
1 another purpose.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I wasn't going to put it in. I
3 just wanted to show them the transcript --
4 THE COURT: Oh.
5 MR. WEINBERG: -- to refresh his recollection
6 that Mr. Dandar was his lawyer there.
7 THE COURT: Okay. So you have not introduced
9 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't, but he wanted it, and
10 I don't object to it.
11 THE COURT: Okay You want it in?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
13 THE COURT: All right. Then it'll go in.
14 Since it's been marked as Defendant's 210, it'll go
15 in as Defendant's exhibit. Madam Clerk.
16 THE CLERK: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Oh, I better keep that. I won't
18 have read that, may not read it. Go ahead.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q Okay. I have shown you what's been marked as
21 Defendant's 211. Can you identify this as an e-mail that
22 you received from Ken Dandar on April 2nd, 1998?
23 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Work product. This is
24 a letter from me to Mr. Vaughn.
25 THE COURT: Let me look at it.
1 MR. WEINBERG: This was turned over to us by
2 Mr. Keane from the Lisa McPherson Trust -- what do
3 you call it -- hard drives.
4 MR. DANDAR: Well, isn't that interesting?
5 This is a work product letter again.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, maybe you can explain why
7 it's on the Lisa McPherson Trust hard drive?
8 MR. DANDAR: I can always -- when -- when did
9 it get put up there?
10 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know.
11 MR. DANDAR: And -- and if it's on the Lisa
12 McPherson hard drive, when did the Church of
13 Scientology obtain a copy of the hard drive when
14 they were only supposed to obtain copies of witness
15 statements? This is definitely not a witness's
17 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, this was turned over
18 yesterday. Mr. McGowan went through some of the
19 things that were printed out by Mr. Keane and --
20 THE COURT: Mr. McGowan turned this over?
21 MR. MOXON: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Well, now, Mr. McGowan really ought
23 not be turning over things off of the hard drive.
24 Mr. Keane ought to be doing this.
25 MR. MOXON: Well, it was turned over by
1 Mr. Keane. Mr. McGowan approved it and Mr. Keane
2 turned it over and said this was -- approved as of
3 yesterday afternoon.
4 MR. DANDAR: This is not contained in any
6 THE COURT: Yes. This is not material that
7 should have been turned over.
8 MR. DANDAR: I object to it and I object to any
9 questions being asked about it.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, once Mr. Young,
11 if I may, your Honor, was offered as an expert
12 witness, a trial-testifying expert witness,
13 Mr. Dandar was supposed to have turned over all of
14 the communications that he had with Mr. Young. And
15 we went through that during Mr. Dandar's cross.
16 And this is one that obviously Mr. Dandar, like
17 the May, '97 letter, overlooked or didn't produce.
18 But it should have been produced because Mr. Young
19 has already been offered as a trial expert; he's
20 testified and we were entitled to the correspondence
21 between Mr. Young and Mr. Dandar as a result of
22 that, as we -- both sides have with all the experts
23 that have been offered as trial witnesses in this
25 MR. DANDAR: I've told the court that the May,
1 '97 letter that the Church of Scientology produced
2 at this hearing is nowhere to be found in my office.
3 Now, Ms. Brooks apparently turned it over as part of
4 her deal. And here is something else that they say
5 came from the Lisa McPherson Trust hard drive, yet
6 Mr. Young, who this letter's addressed to, was never
7 part of the Lisa McPherson Trust. So apparently it
8 was another attempt to -- to obtain my work product.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
11 MR. DANDAR: And this is --
12 THE COURT: What are you doing writing stuff on
13 the LMT hard drive?
14 MR. DANDAR: I'm not.
15 THE COURT: The LMT computer.
16 MR. DANDAR: I'm not.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's dated April 25th, '98
18 is when it appeared on the Lisa notes in the
20 MR. DANDAR: And April the 25th, '98 the Lisa
21 McPherson Trust wasn't even thought of, wasn't
22 even --
23 MR. WEINBERG: What is Lisa --
24 MR. DANDAR: -- in place until October of '99.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, what is Lisa notes?
1 MR. DANDAR: Looks like -- it looks like it's
2 either Stacy's internal notes when she was
3 consulting with me or Mr. Vaughn Young's internal
4 notes that she obtained or someone obtained, and now
5 if it's on a hard drive of the Lisa McPherson Trust,
7 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's not allegedly.
8 Mr. Keane turned it over.
9 THE COURT: Get Mr. Keane down here.
10 Mr. Bailiff, go see my secretary -- well, I don't
11 want to call him out of his office. That's not
12 fair. I'll have Mr. Keane down here.
13 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Young is indicating he might
14 be able to explain this. I don't know.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 THE WITNESS: Not to explain it, but just to
17 say that I never turned this over to anyone. And
18 just for the technology of this, in this long line
19 here that -- where it says "full path" and it starts
20 with "quantum," what's interesting at the end of it,
21 you'll see the letters JPG. JPG means that this is
22 an image. When you see images on the Internet,
23 that's a designation of one type of image, like a
24 photograph. So this is not a message transmission.
25 What this is, is this has been copied and then made
1 into an image.
2 So this is not a copy of an e-mail on a hard
3 drive; this is a copy of a Xerox or a photograph of
4 a printout of this that has then been put on the
5 hard drive.
6 And I just want to clarify this 'cause it might
7 explain how it might have been acquired since I gave
8 it to no one.
9 It's a photograph. As if you were to copy
10 this. You can make it into a JPG file and then you
11 can put it onto a hard drive. It's not text. It's
12 an image. And that may be complex, but I think it's
13 an interesting point to recognize how -- what form
14 this was on the hard drive.
15 MR. WEINBERG: All right. It's over my head.
16 THE COURT: Mine too. I'm still -- I'm still
17 trying to read this. For some reason I'm not able
18 to get through it. Just a minute. Let me read it.
19 Well, to tell you the truth as I read this, I
20 can't -- this doesn't look like a full -- I mean, it
21 just looks like something taken from something. It
22 doesn't even make sense. It looks like something
23 that's been pulled out from something that must have
24 been bigger.
25 MR. WEINBERG: What it appears to me is, is
1 that this is some interaction between Mr. Dandar and
2 Mr. Young about language in -- in a complaint, or
3 draft complaint, and that's all it is.
4 But I don't understand how Mr. Dandar can say
5 this is work product in light of the fact that, A,
6 he's testified about all the work that Mr. Young
7 supposedly did with regard to an amended complaint,
8 and B, he asked Mr. Young a lot of questions about
9 that yesterday. And all this is, or appears to be,
10 some communication in April of 1998 where Mr. Young,
11 contrary to his trial testimony, was apparently
12 giving advice as to changes that could be made on --
13 on the complaint or language in a -- in a complaint.
14 That's all I was going to do.
15 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Young testified that he didn't
16 write the complaints; he gave me information to put
17 in the complaints.
18 THE COURT: Well, this -- this just doesn't
19 make sense to me. I'm not sure what it is because
20 it doesn't make sense that it's a full transmittal.
21 It -- it -- just kind of in the middle of something.
22 MR. DANDAR: It does look that way.
23 THE COURT: So consequently I don't know what
24 it is. Number two, I don't know that even if you
25 said communications between an attorney and their
1 expert -- yeah, you get communications between an
2 attorney and their expert, but if somebody is a
3 consultant, I'm not sure this would qualify or
4 whether it wouldn't.
5 I am concerned, however, that the information
6 is being provided to one side. Certainly it wasn't
7 provided to both sides. That is clearly something
8 that I would be very surprised if Mr. Keane would
9 do. So consequently I'm going to have to get
10 Mr. Keane in here and see what's going on.
11 If there's anything else that you've gotten --
12 Mr. Moxon, what else did you get yesterday?
13 MR. MOXON: We got a number of pages, about a
14 hundred pages of stuff that was provided to --
15 Mr. Keane provided to McGowan that had been printed
16 off from some of the materials that are produced by
17 LMT, and Mr. McGowan reviewed them to see if they
18 could -- there was any -- any reason not to produce
19 them, and he cleared them. And I was provided a
20 copy --
21 THE COURT: Who cleared them? Mr. McGowan?
22 MR. MOXON: Well, they're LMT's records. Yeah.
23 Mr. McGowan's LMT's counsel. Mr. McGowan went
24 through them in accordance with, you know --
25 Mr. Keane obviously -- Mr. McGowan had to approve
1 them; they're his materials. They're produced by
2 Mr. McGowan, and a copy was made for me by
3 Mr. Keane.
4 MR. DANDAR: This is ex parte production.
5 THE COURT: Yeah. I -- I find this --
6 MR. MOXON: They're available, of course, to
7 Mr. Dandar.
8 THE COURT: Well, that isn't the way that an
9 agent of the court does things. So consequently
10 whatever you're doing with those hundred pages you
11 are to cease and you are to stop and you are to put
12 them aside until such time as I can see why it is
13 that one side is getting materials from supposedly
14 an operation that is tied, if the church's side is
15 to be believed, to the plaintiff. And the plaintiff
16 isn't getting them.
17 That's -- I don't know what's going on. It's
18 another one of those very unusual things. I'll get
19 to the bottom of it. Put it aside. Don't read it.
20 Whoever you have copying them, tell them to stop.
21 MR. MOXON: Understood.
22 MR. DANDAR: Could we have them produced to the
24 THE COURT: Sure.
25 MR. MOXON: Of course, yeah.
1 THE COURT: Make me a copy of everything you've
3 MR. MOXON: Very good.
4 THE COURT: And --
5 MR. DANDAR: And then could I have a copy of
6 everything they have as well?
7 THE COURT: Well, yes, you can.
8 In the meantime, I'm not sure what this is. Do
9 you have an objection to his asking a question about
10 it without waiving it since he's here?
11 MR. DANDAR: Since he's here, no, go ahead.
12 Without waiving it, that's fine.
13 THE COURT: All right. That way we get
14 whatever it is.
15 MR. WEINBERG: I really had very few -- I
16 mean --
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Does -- do you remember that in April of 1998 you
19 were giving advice as to some other iteration of the
20 complaint in this case as to what it ought to look like and
21 read like?
22 A No. And I don't recall ever seeing this e-mail or
23 this supposed e-mail.
24 Q All right. When I read paragraph 92 and 103 --
25 oh, you don't remember any response to this that you might
1 have sent to Mr. Dandar, is that right?
2 A I don't remember seeing this as --
3 Q All right.
4 A -- e-mail to me, let alone a response.
5 Q Just for the record, the [email protected] would
6 be your e-mail address, right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay.
9 A It was my address.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Those are all my questions, your
12 THE COURT: All right. Cross examine?
13 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Or I'm sorry. Redirect.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Redirect.
16 THE COURT: Redirect.
17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Does the exhibit of the Defense 202 jog your
20 memory at all as to the type of consulting and expert work
21 you were doing for me since -- in '97 and '98, that e-mail?
22 A Well, this -- this would be representative --
23 THE COURT: Are you talking about this e-mail?
24 MR. WEINBERG: It's 211.
25 THE COURT: It's 211.
1 MR. DANDAR: 211. I'm sorry.
2 A Without agreeing that you either sent it to me or
3 I responded or this is accurate, just taking this as a
4 hypothetical example, this would be representative of
5 something that you would put together, the type -- an
6 example of what you would put together, and I'd say, "Yeah,
7 that reads okay. That's accurate."
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Okay. And so you didn't actually draft full
10 paragraphs of the first amended complaint or any other
11 amended complaint.
12 A No. As I -- as I said, this would be an example
13 of what would happen. You would write something or have me
14 check it for accuracy.
15 Q If I e-mailed you something back in '97 or '98, at
16 [email protected], who -- who had the code to access that
18 A Only me.
19 Q And where did you store it? If you did store it.
20 Apparently something got stored.
21 A Well, even temporarily, before I might erase --
22 you know, 'cause e-mails are easily erased and you just get
23 rid of them 'cause they clutter up -- it would be stored on
24 my hard drive and -- and sort of anticipating the question,
25 this was a different computer and hard drive than Stacy had.
1 Q And did Stacy have access to your hard drive?
2 A Well, she would have access. She could go look at
3 it. But I had never any instance that she ever did. And in
4 '98 -- let me just think for a second here. I was just
5 trying to remember, geographically, where I was in April of
6 '98. I don't remember because I was traveling a lot.
7 Q Okay. Was your hard drive on a laptop or a
8 stationary computer?
9 A It was a stationary computer.
10 Q Did Stacy also store things in there?
11 A No. We had separate computers.
12 Q Did you give anyone permission to go into your
13 hard drive and copy anything that I may have sent you?
14 A No.
15 Q Do you still have that hard drive?
16 A No.
17 Q What happened to it?
18 A It was erased, wiped out, when I left Seattle, and
19 then she just did whatever she wanted with the computer.
20 She did then what she wanted with the computer.
21 Q Who erased it?
22 A I did.
23 Q What software did you use to do that?
24 A There's a software called PGP, which has -- Oliver
25 North discovered when you erase something from a hard drive
1 you don't really erase it. You have to put something over
2 top of it, other text on top, so that it fills the empty
3 spaces. And so that's how I did it.
4 THE COURT: So if you erased your hard drive
5 and nobody had access to your computer, well, what
6 do we have here? I mean either you didn't erase
7 your hard drive very well or something. I mean, I
8 don't understand it.
9 THE WITNESS: My --
10 THE COURT: Because as I said, this is a very
11 unusual thing to me. It's got number 92, and the
12 next thing you see is 103. And it just doesn't seem
13 as if it in any way, shape or form is a complete
15 THE WITNESS: My --
16 THE COURT: But apparently it came off of
17 something that belonged to you.
18 THE WITNESS: Not necessarily, ma'am. It's
19 very easy to forge something like this. I'm not
20 proposing it is. But all I have is just text
21 written out that supposedly is e-mail from
22 Mr. Dandar that was on a hard drive. I can't verify
23 that this ever came to me; I can't verify anything
24 about it. And so at that point I would question
25 even its authenticity.
1 THE COURT: Well, boy, if somebody were going
2 to forge something, I guess they would forge
3 something better than this because I don't even
4 understand it.
5 THE WITNESS: I do --
6 THE COURT: So one would hope if they'd go to
7 that elaborate of a scheme it would be some smoking
8 gun or something.
9 THE WITNESS: I tend to agree, your Honor,
10 because otherwise it's pretty benign.
11 THE COURT: Right.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q When did you erase your hard drive?
14 THE COURT: Not that I know what a smoking gun
15 would be, but --
16 MR. WEINBERG: I learned yesterday when reading
17 a Watergate story that it came from Watergate.
18 THE COURT: Yes. I saw that too. I have a
19 feeling that that probably was an expression that
20 was used before Watergate.
21 MR. WEINBERG: I do too.
22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Gunsmoke.
23 A Just give me just a second. I'm trying to back up
25 It might have been after this, a couple of months
1 after this, that I erased the hard drive.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Couple months after April 2nd of 1998?
4 A Yes. I'm not certain about that -- about that
5 time period. But it would have -- would -- might have been
7 Q Were you -- when you erased it, were you and Stacy
8 still married?
9 A Well, no. We were -- we were divorced at that
10 time. But we were going through the divorce to make it
11 final. But I was still in Seattle.
12 Q Okay. Was she still in Seattle?
13 A Sometimes.
14 Q She had already taken up -- I don't know what
15 other word to use -- with Mr. Minton?
16 A Well, I -- I think she might even have moved to
17 Florida at that point. I don't remember. I know that she
18 was traveling around a lot. There was different conferences
19 and she would come in and out of Seattle.
20 Q Okay. All right. We -- Mr. Weinberg showed you a
21 video clip of your '99, December, discovery deposition,
22 where you talked about -- or answered questions concerning
23 whether or not you had any input or -- let's see -- helping
24 to author the first amended complaint or any other amended
25 complaint. Do you recall that?
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. Can you tell the court what physical
3 condition you were in in December, '99 during your
5 A I had been diagnosed with terminal cancer one
6 month before and I was in a lot of pain.
7 Q And how are you doing today?
8 A It was a rough video to watch, to go back to that
9 time and -- and --
10 I'm sorry. It's --
11 Q Are you in remission today?
12 A I'm sorry.
13 Q Is it worse than it was then?
14 A According to the tests, it -- the cancer's
15 doubling every three weeks.
16 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Young, have you been subjected, as
17 far as you understand the term "fair game," to fair game
18 since leaving the Church of Scientology?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Beyond the scope. I
20 didn't ask him about harassment; I didn't ask him
21 about that on my -- Mr. Dandar did on direct, I
22 didn't on cross. This is beyond the scope.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 MR. DANDAR: Judge, Mr. Weinberg asked
25 Mr. Young about fair game and cancellation of fair
1 game and produced Mr. Hubbard's alleged affidavit --
2 THE COURT: All right. You're right.
3 MR. WEINBERG: But that's different -- I mean,
4 a policy is one thing, the -- his experience after
5 he left the church, is --
6 THE COURT: I understand it, but if -- if --
7 the issue was whether or not fair game still exists
8 or whether it doesn't, then I suppose he can tell us
9 about his experience if he thinks it would be fair
10 game, whatever fair game is.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q After you turned down Mr. Rinder's office to
13 perjure yourself, were you harassed?
14 A I believe I stated so yesterday, that -- yes.
15 Q And how long did that harassment continue?
16 A Over the next couple of years, it's sort of hard
17 to put a time frame to it, but it continued all the way
18 through Vashon Island where we were picketed and the island
19 was leafletted, and --
20 THE COURT: I think he did testify about this
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Did the -- Mr. Weinberg asked you about Mr. and
24 Mrs. Minton buying a house for the cat sanctuary on Vashon
25 Island. Why did he need to do that?
1 A Well, I had put a note onto the Internet -- and I
2 don't remember the date exactly. It was something like in
3 October of -- of '97, late '97 -- onto
4 alt.religion.scientology. And it was just basically a long
5 statement by me that what was going on, how bad the
6 harassment was; that there was a number of -- of -- of what
7 I considered to be assaults on the cat sanctuary, attempts
8 to try to close us down, picketing, leafletting.
9 And it was just a statement. It was -- it was
10 nothing else. I just wanted it on the record. And I -- I
11 think I even said in there, of course, there's so much you
12 can't prove.
13 And it was after that that Mr. Minton called
14 and -- and mainly spoke to Stacy about it. And the point we
15 made that he was asking, he says, "Do you need help with the
16 sanctuary?" And I said yes because it wasn't a case of us
17 needing personal help; we needed it to protect the cats.
18 And so that's how it came about.
19 Q So --
20 A Until that point I never had spoken with him; I
21 didn't know who he was. You know, I didn't know who he was.
22 Q So when you and Stacy and the cats moved to Vashon
23 Island did the harassment stop?
24 A No. It continued. It -- it actually got worse.
25 Q How?
1 A Well, there was, you know, pickets; there was --
2 Vashon Island has a newspaper, a weekly newspaper, and they
3 did a large story on it because there were people in -- in
4 the parking lot of the shopping -- shopping center passing
5 out leaflets, and they had determined that the people who
6 were doing it were not from Vashon Island. And they
7 identified a private detective -- I can't remember his name
8 right now. Private investigator. Just his name escapes me
9 right now -- who was, turns out, had worked for the Church
10 of Scientology. That was one person that was -- that was
11 doing this.
12 And it just -- it just continued.
13 Q You have any -- experience any damage to your cat
14 sanctuary on Vashon Island?
15 A Not directly to the sanctuary itself, not physical
17 Q Any damage to your dogs or your cats?
18 THE COURT: Didn't Stacy talk about this quite
19 a bit?
20 MR. DANDAR: Not this last question.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. DANDAR: It's my last question.
23 A One day I had let my dog out for about 20 minutes
24 and went out to pick her up -- pick him up. His name was
25 Mac. And he wasn't around. And I went -- he never leaves
1 the property. And -- but an hour and a half later, about a
2 little under an hour and a half, we got a call from the vet.
3 And the vet on the island is about oh, five miles north of
4 us. And the vet said, "We have your dog here and he's in
5 bad shape."
6 And I went and picked him up and he was -- his
7 face was bloody and his back had been beaten. And -- and I
8 could tell it wasn't -- and he had been found by somebody
9 walking south towards the house, north of the vet. And I
10 knew that in one hour's time he couldn't have gotten up
11 there. Somebody had to have transported him.
12 And he -- he had -- they beat him really bad, and
13 they -- he was quite a broken dog for a number of months
14 from that. And the only thing I knew was that somebody had
15 grabbed him and beat him.
16 And I took it to be a warning. You know, it's --
17 it's just that -- it's this warning that you always get.
18 And that's what I've always understood fair game to be.
19 It's -- it's the shot across the bow. It's you are
20 vulnerable. And it's -- that's what fair game is. And I
21 just understand it.
22 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I have -- almost done,
23 Judge. Have this marked as an exhibit, please.
24 Oops. I didn't make enough copies.
25 THE COURT: What are you doing?
1 MR. DANDAR: I've got some exhibits I want to
2 show him.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Mr. Young, let me hand to you what's been marked
5 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 104, 105 and 106.
6 MR. DANDAR: I hand the court the court's copy.
7 104, 105 and 106.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Mr. Weinberg asked you yesterday about whether or
10 not, when you left the Church of Scientology, you were mad
11 at David Miscavige or the church. Can you identify as a
12 follow-up to that question the documents 104, 105 and 106?
13 A Document 104 is a letter from David Miscavige to
14 me dated 11 July, 1998, with a subject line "Your request
15 for a B of R," which I'll explain. Exhibit 105 is a letter
16 to me from -- signed by Greg, and at the top it says
17 "Inspector general." That is the from line. Greg is Greg
18 Wilhere, W-i-l-h-e-r-e, who is the inspector general, dated
19 29 August, 1988.
20 Q What's the date of that letter, 105?
21 A 29 August of '88.
22 And Exhibit 106 is another letter from Greg
23 Wilhere as inspector general, to me, dated 24 August, 1988.
24 Q And the one from Dave is dated what date? 104?
25 A The one from David Miscavige is dated 11 July,
2 Q Okay. And he signs it "Dave," correct?
3 A The from line says "COB RTC," and the signature
4 line there is an abbreviation there just above his
5 signature, which is how we often used to sign the
6 dispatches. It says -- it's signed M-L-O-V-E, which is a
7 shortening for much love. And it's signed, "Much love,
9 Q Now, what was this all about, these three letters?
10 A At the time I was on the RPF. Has that been
11 brought up here?
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay. I was on the RPF and
14 then --
15 THE COURT: In different ways, I might suggest.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you, ma'am.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Because you had not supported Mr. Miscavige in his
19 takeover of the Church of Scientology?
20 A Yes. And the assignment -- the reason that had
21 been given that I was sent to the RPF was for other reasons,
22 and I had been protesting this heavily. And in Scientology,
23 the -- it's a maxim that you can't make progress if
24 something is false. So I was protesting my assignment as
1 So finally, he did say this in this 11 July
2 statement, and it's at the bottom of the first page. In
3 the -- actually the thick large paragraph there, where he
4 says that -- let me see. Give me a second here. Oh, it'll
5 have to be in combination with Greg Wilhere's letter. But
6 he said that -- the bottom paragraph, "It is true that
7 Norman --" and he's referring to Norman Starkey, who was the
8 head of ASI at the time -- "and myself told you that our
9 reasons for letting this action take its own course and you
10 going into the RPF was due to your involvement with
12 In other words, this was putting to a -- saying
13 that my statements had been correct. I'd gone to the RPF
14 because of my association with Broeker and not because I was
15 some screw-up. So this was an admission that basically it
16 was a political purge.
17 In the letter which was the following month from
18 Greg Wilhere, the inspector general --
19 THE COURT: I mean, I -- why is this relevant
20 to this?
21 MR. DANDAR: Because Mr. Weinberg brought it up
22 in cross examination.
23 THE COURT: Well --
24 MR. DANDAR: Of alleged bias against David
25 Miscavige and Scientology.
1 THE COURT: And so a letter from Greg has what
2 to do with whether he likes Mr. Miscavige or
3 Mr. Miscavige likes him or --
4 MR. DANDAR: Well, actually the primary
5 evidence is 104, the letter from Mr. Miscavige.
6 THE COURT: Okay. And he's explained that.
7 So --
8 MR. DANDAR: All right.
9 THE COURT: If the others have something to do
10 with 104, then they can just go along with it, but
11 we don't really need an explanation of it.
12 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. All right.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Now, Mr. Young, the Lisa McPherson death, you said
15 yesterday, was the death would have been less of a PR flap
16 than --
17 THE COURT: What happened here?
18 MR. LIEBERMAN: I just banged my knee on his
19 chair. I'm sorry, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: I wasn't sure if Mr. Shaw --
21 MR. WEINBERG: I thought Mr. Shaw had hit him,
22 that's what I thought.
23 THE COURT: That's what I thought too.
24 All right. Excuse me.
25 MR. LIEBERMAN: Nothing worse than being
1 kneecapped, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Go ahead.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q How is it that the death of Lisa McPherson dying
5 could be less than a PR flap than going back to Morton Plant
6 Hospital while she's alive?
7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Beyond the scope. I
8 didn't ask him about PR flaps. I didn't.
9 You did.
10 THE COURT: I did. So I'll allow it.
11 THE WITNESS: Am I allowed to respond?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 A Well, I still contend I was trying to touch on it
15 yesterday -- that in effect, it wasn't a PR flap when she
16 died because it was a good year --
17 THE COURT: This is a repeat of testimony from
18 yesterday and I don't need to hear it again.
19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right.
20 THE COURT: Unless there's something new.
21 MR. DANDAR: Well, I don't think he talked
22 about -- see, it follows up the questions you were
23 asking him. He didn't talk about why it was not a
24 PR flap.
25 THE COURT: Well, he did. He told us that
1 yesterday. That nothing happened for quite
3 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
4 THE COURT: That's exactly what he said.
5 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
6 THE COURT: It took a while.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right.
8 THE COURT: What are you looking at,
9 Mr. Dandar?
10 MR. DANDAR: I'm looking at notes that I made
11 during his testimony yesterday when I was --
12 THE COURT: On a little piece of paper that
13 looks like a tape from a --
14 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
15 THE COURT: -- a --
16 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
17 No, actually, guess what? If you just give me
18 a second --
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 MR. DANDAR: -- I think I'm done.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Oh. Mr. Weinberg asked you about this e-mail
23 concerning Mr. Rinder which is Defendant's Exhibit 204? You
24 recall that?
25 A Yes.
1 Q Where did you get the information from that talked
2 about Mr. Rinder not being allowed to go -- to be with his
3 wife when his infant child died from crib death?
4 A He had mentioned it to me, but it was actually
5 common knowledge within that echelon that it happened.
6 Because first of all, when he -- he lost his -- his child,
7 that was the first piece of knowledge. And that's -- you
8 know, it's the sort of thing people just talk about. And
9 then when he wasn't able to go down, that was one of those
10 things that people just know about.
11 Q And in Exhibit Defense 203, the 21 declarations
12 totalling apparently 358 pages that Mr. Weinberg asked you
13 about --
14 A Yes.
15 Q -- in any of those declarations did you slant the
16 truth or try to sway it so it fit the attorney's theory of
17 the case?
18 A No. I just tried to tell it like it was.
19 Q Did you ever hear Stacy say that in any of the
20 times that you and she were -- or she was writing a
21 declaration, that she wanted to fabricate a scenario or
22 slant it so it fit the -- what the attorney needed?
23 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Beyond the scope. I
24 didn't ask him about Stacy.
25 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it.
1 A No. I never heard that.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Now, recently have you been talking to Stacy?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to that, your Honor.
5 We really didn't get into that. It's a whole new
7 THE COURT: True. Sustained.
8 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Just one second and I think
9 I'm about done.
10 Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. I've got one last
11 exhibit here.
12 I'd like to move the three letters into
13 evidence. 104, 105 and 106.
14 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to let them in. As
15 to -- especially the letter from Mr. -- identified
16 as coming from Mr. Miscavige. I don't know exactly
17 what the other two letters have to do with, but I
18 suppose if it relates to the same thing, we'll just
19 let them in. They're authenticated. I don't know
20 what they have to do with this case. This hearing,
21 I should say.
22 MR. DANDAR: Only because Mr. Weinberg brought
23 it up, your Honor.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Let me show you 107.
1 A There was one --
2 Q There's a point?
3 MR. DANDAR: Could he explain something that he
4 wants to tell you about one of the letters from Greg
6 THE WITNESS: There was a line in one of the
7 letters, your Honor, which is, I believe, relevant.
8 THE COURT: All right. Which line is it?
9 THE WITNESS: It's Exhibit 106, the letter
10 which the date at the top is 24 August, 1998.
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: Second page. What he's referring
13 to here is a new directive would be put out with
14 regard to my assignment to the RPF. And I bring
15 your attention to the last sentence of the top
16 paragraph. It says, "This issue will also bring to
17 light that you were held at high esteem and
18 trusted." And it's just relevant to my position at
19 the time.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Now, Mr. Young --
23 THE COURT: Who is this Mr. Greg -- who is
24 Mr. -- who is Greg?
25 THE WITNESS: Greg Wilhere was the inspector
1 general at the time. He replaced Vicki Aznaran.
2 THE COURT: Inspector general of --of RTC?
3 THE WITNESS: Of RTC.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q That's while Mr. Miscavige was COB -- chairman of
6 the board of RTC?
7 A Yes.
8 Q All right. Now, just this morning Mr. Weinberg
9 asked you questions about Defendant's Exhibit 209 and
10 introduced into evidence the -- what's purported to be the
11 full IRS response to what the Sea Organization is from the
12 Church of Scientology.
13 And then in the -- page 3 of 1, the second
14 highlighted paragraph says -- tries to relate the Sea
15 Organization to other common religious orders, and says that
16 unlike the other religious orders of other churches --
17 A Can you give me a moment to find it?
18 Q Okay.
19 A What page is it?
20 Q 3 of 1.
21 A 3-1? Okay. All right.
22 Q "Other religious orders have property, assets and
23 considerable personnel whose full-time job has to do with
24 administration of the order. The Sea Org has none of this."
25 Is that a true statement as far as you know, and
1 in your experience?
2 A Well, I know for one thing that there is a --
3 there's financial assets, large financial assets, that was
4 created by Hubbard and continued on, as far as I know, that
5 were called the Sea Org reserves. And this is money that is
6 made by the Sea Org when they send a project out to an
7 organization and the organization is billed for it. And
8 Mr. Hubbard wrote about that, and that's how they make their
9 money. And the last I knew there was millions and millions
10 of dollars in those assets.
11 Q Well, look at the Plaintiff's Exhibit 107 from the
12 Modern Management Technology Defined.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I object because
14 Mr. Young left in 1989. This was submitted in 1993.
15 And -- and what -- what Mr. Dandar's trying to get
16 him to do is to testify as to the state of the Sea
17 Org reserves in 1993 which he's not competent to do.
18 THE COURT: That's true.
19 MR. DANDAR: Well, not the amount.
20 THE COURT: Well, what difference does it make?
21 MR. WEINBERG: The existence --
22 MR. DANDAR: Because this document that they
23 just had entered into evidence contains --
24 THE COURT: When did they enter it into
1 MR. DANDAR: -- contains lies.
2 This is the document --
3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me for a second.
4 MR. DANDAR: -- that they --
5 MR. WEINBERG: Are you testifying?
6 THE COURT: Just a second. I'm asking him,
7 what is he talking about.
8 MR. DANDAR: Defendant's Exhibit 209, which
9 Mr. Weinberg said is the complete copy of the
10 questions -- the answers from the Church of
11 Scientology to answer question 3A from the IRS about
12 the role of the Sea Org. And here it says on page 3
13 of 1 the Sea Org has no assets. It has no
14 administrative function. It doesn't have a
16 And then Mr. Hubbard's own dictionary, which I
17 just introduced as -- part of the dictionary -- as
18 Plaintiff's Exhibit 107, has a definition of Sea Org
19 reserves, and it talks about how the Sea Org does
20 have property and assets.
21 MR. WEINBERG: It's a 1976 dictionary. This is
22 a 1992 submission to the IRS.
23 MR. DANDAR: So I guess they can put on
24 rebuttal and show us that this dictionary's been
25 altered by someone.
1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, what's that have to do
2 with the case?
3 THE COURT: I have no idea what it has to do
4 with the case, but apparently you brought it up. So
5 go on, Mr. Dandar, get it done.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Just for the record, I did not
7 bring it up. Mr. Young -- Mr. Dandar put in two
8 pages from a five or six page submission.
9 THE COURT: But then you had him read from it.
10 MR. WEINBERG: No, I didn't have him read from
12 THE COURT: Well, actually you did. At least
13 that's my recollection.
14 MR. WEINBERG: No, I didn't. He -- he -- I
15 didn't ask him any questions about it other than
16 this is -- I had him look at it, "Is this the full
17 answer to the question that you took two pages out
18 of," and he said yes and that's it. That's all I
20 THE COURT: What was it that he read from where
21 we had to go through this explanation from
22 Mr. Dandar that he wasn't admitting that it was true
23 but it was just that that's what it said. What was
25 MR. DANDAR: Captain and brevet captain.
1 MR. WEINBERG: That was from the page he put
3 THE COURT: Well, this was this morning.
4 Look, I don't care.
5 MR. DANDAR: This is my last question.
6 THE COURT: I'm going to let it in.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
8 THE COURT: Thank you. Go on ahead.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q So Mr. Young, in the Exhibit 107, the Hubbard
11 Dictionary of Administration and Management written by L.
12 Ron Hubbard, turn to page -- beginning at 464. Does it not
13 start to define the Sea Org and then have many definitions
14 afterward concerning things like the Sea Org central bureau,
15 Sea Org org board, the Sea Org estates captain, things like
17 A There's a number of definitions that -- where Sea
18 Org is the preface phrase to the definition, yes.
19 Q And turn to page 466. The definition of Sea Org
20 reserves, talking about the amount of money collected for
21 the corporation over and above expenses.
22 A Yes.
23 Q Do you know whether or not, in 1989 when you left,
24 that Mr. Hubbard's dictionary, after he died in '86, was
1 A I don't know of it being changed.
2 Q Do you know if there -- if it was -- if just
3 hypothetically if it was changed, was there any written
4 policy or directives from Mr. Hubbard that would permit the
5 definition of Sea Org and Sea Org reserves to be changed
6 after his death?
7 A No.
8 MR. DANDAR: That's all I have.
9 And I move 107 into evidence.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Object for the reason I said
11 before. It's a 1976 dictionary.
12 THE COURT: Well --
13 MR. WEINBERG: Even before -- I mean, there's
14 been -- Mr. Dandar listed --
15 THE COURT: If it's been changed, you surely
16 have somebody you can call.
17 MR. WEINBERG: It has been changed.
18 THE COURT: Well, then call a witness.
19 MR. WEINBERG: But --
20 THE COURT: He says it hasn't, it wouldn't be
21 and it couldn't be.
22 MR. WEINBERG: All right. But I have a
23 different question to ask --
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 MR. WEINBERG: -- which I think will clear --
1 CROSS EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q The Sea Org reserves, you know that when you look
4 at this definition, they're not talking about a bank account
5 of the Sea Org; they're talking about bank accounts of
6 various corporations and organizations in the Church of
7 Scientology, like the Church of Scientology California or
8 CSI or something like that, correct? That's what this is
9 talking about.
10 A Could you -- could you rephrase that? I lost you
11 in that question.
12 Q You just -- Mr. Dandar just had you look at this
13 definition of Sea Org reserves. Do you see that?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And the definition says, "Often miscalled Flag
16 reserves or management reserves, which they are not. Sea
17 Org reserves are --" and it says -- "the amount of money
18 collected for the corporation over and above expenses that
19 is sent by various units to the corporation's banks."
20 And when they're talking about the corporations,
21 they're not talking about the Sea Org; they're talking about
22 corporations like the church corporations, Church of
23 Scientology California, the church corporation in -- in New
24 York or Boston or -- or now if there was one, CSI or
25 something like that. That's what they're talking about,
2 A The corporation, yes.
3 Q They're not talking about the Sea Org has a bank
4 account somewhere, are they?
5 A That's not what it says. They were just set --
6 you know -- I -- I don't need to explain that.
7 Q All right. Now, you -- you got emotional and told
8 this story about your dog, and the purpose was to leave the
9 impression at this hearing that the Church of Scientology
10 had something to do with your dog getting beaten up. That's
11 the impression that you left, and you even said that's part
12 of fair game, right?
13 A Yes, I said fair game, but I'm not going to
14 concede to the front end of your statement.
15 Q You're not?
16 A That I -- my purpose was to sway someone. It was
17 an emotional event for me.
18 Q But you don't -- as you sit here today, and back
19 then, you don't have and you didn't have back then a shred
20 of evidence that the Church of Scientology or anybody
21 connected with the Church of Scientology had anything to do
22 with your dog getting hurt that you found at the vet. You
23 didn't have any evidence of that, did you?
24 A No.
25 Q It's sort of like when you wrote the affidavit and
1 you dropped the footnote about David Miscavige's mother? Is
2 that what you're trying to do today?
3 A Please, Mr. Weinberg, I really --
4 Q Or mother-in-law?
5 A If you want to equate my dog being beaten with my
6 testimony, I really can't respond to that.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have any further
9 THE COURT: Anything further?
10 MR. DANDAR: No, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Thank you, sir, for coming. You
12 may stand down and you may be excused.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you for your courtesy, your
15 THE COURT: You're very welcome.
16 All right. Is Mr. Prince here?
17 MR. DANDAR: I will check.
18 MR. WEINBERG: We have Mr. McGowan.
19 THE COURT: I know. I want to see if
20 Mr. Prince was here first, and then I thought if he
21 wasn't, we could --
22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
23 MR. DANDAR: No, he's not here.
24 THE COURT: All right. We're going to go ahead
25 and take a recess, and I'll have Mr. Weinberg and
1 Mr. McGowan and Mr. Dandar and we will go -- I don't
2 think we need a court reporter at this time -- to my
3 chambers. You all take five minutes, then you come
4 to my chambers. You'll give me 10 minutes.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And I may bring a cup of
7 THE COURT: You may bring a cup of coffee.
8 We're going to be on break for at least 20 minutes,
9 maybe 30.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
11 THE COURT: Maybe 40. I don't know how long
12 it'll take us to get through this.
13 You all be lurking about say after 10:30,
15 I'll tell you what. Let's just try for 10:45.
16 MR. WEINBERG: To go to your chambers?
17 THE COURT: No, no, dear; to be back in court.
18 You be in my chambers in 10 minutes.
19 (A recess was taken at 10:11 a.m.)
20 (The proceedings were reconvened at 11:25 a.m.)
21 THE COURT: Where are our good friends from the
22 defense side?
23 Okay. Mr. Dandar, you indicated that you had
24 not seen this list. According to Mr. Keane's
25 certificate of service, this was furnished by mail
1 to you on the 17th. Was that yesterday?
2 MR. DANDAR: Yesterday, yes.
3 MS. WEST: That's why we don't have it.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Well, presumably it will
5 come today. What I suggest we do is that you get
6 it -- I mean, you can see mine if you want.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think I have that
8 either --
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. WEINBERG: -- to tell you the truth.
11 THE COURT: So what we're going to have to do
12 is just wait till you all get this, see if you
13 object to this and what part you object to, and then
14 we'll just have to try and resolve it.
15 MR. DANDAR: You talking about the search list?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Do you have any of your notes on
18 THE COURT: Any what?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Do you have any of your notes on
21 THE COURT: On the list?
22 MR. WEINBERG: No. On the -- whatever he
23 submitted to you or what's he's submitted to you --
24 or if he's sent it to everybody maybe somebody could
25 make a copy and then we could look at it at lunch
1 and maybe talk about it when we get back.
2 THE COURT: Oh, you mean do I have --
3 No, this is the original. So no I do not.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Well, maybe somebody can make a
5 copy of that, give one to us and one to Ken and
6 maybe at lunchtime we could look at it and talk
8 THE COURT: Okay. Maybe somebody can.
9 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, if you give it to us, we
10 can make a copy of it.
11 THE COURT: There's what I have here, is the
12 original. It has a very poor page 2, but I can
13 pretty well make out who it is. I think you all can
14 too. Somebody want to take it, make a copy of that?
15 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I'll do that.
16 THE COURT: Don't make it on that machine of
18 MR. DANDAR: At lunchtime.
19 THE COURT: Okay. At lunchtime you can do
21 In any event, we'll have to address this after
22 lunch. What we'll do is we'll go through -- I've
23 now gone through this list with counsel. And as far
24 as those that I did not have -- hadn't made a
25 decision on, we went through -- I think we agreed on
2 Did you find out anything about Judge Penick's
4 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, I did. I just talked to
5 Judge Penick. And in fact, he allowed the LMT to
6 come in and film or videotape the proceedings, along
7 with some French group. So there were two cameras
8 in that courtroom.
9 THE COURT: So they were in there legitimately.
10 MR. McGOWAN: They were in there legitimately.
11 THE COURT: Okay. And in that case, you all
12 don't want them, correct?
13 MR. WEINBERG: No. We don't want them.
14 THE COURT: Okay. So I'm going to strike
15 through those question marks and put "no's" on all
16 of those.
17 And Mr. Dandar objects to some of these, but
18 before I just start with the ones I know he objects
19 to, I'm going to need you to take a look at the --
20 Oh, here's -- I need you to look and see if
21 there's anybody you object to on there that you
22 haven't seen, okay?
23 MR. DANDAR: All right.
24 THE COURT: And Counselor, I think you can go
25 ahead and be excused.
1 MR. McGOWAN: Thank you, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Thank you for coming.
3 (Mr. McGowan left the courtroom.)
4 MR. WEINBERG: You going to make us a copy too?
5 MR. DANDAR: Yeah.
6 Judge, I'm filing request to produce Vicki
7 Aznaran settlement documents, since her declarations
8 were entered subsequent to that settlement or as
9 part of that settlement. I don't know if you want a
10 copy of this or not.
11 THE COURT: I don't know. What is this? A
12 request to produce?
13 MR. DANDAR: To the defendant, yes.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I'll just deal with it
15 when we see if they produce it. Then I don't even
16 need to see it. If they don't --
17 MR. DANDAR: All right. That's fine.
18 THE COURT: -- why then you can give it to me
19 at that time.
20 MR. DANDAR: All right.
21 THE COURT: Here's one that I didn't go over
22 with you all. December of '99, a cult workshop.
23 Anybody know what that is?
24 MR. DANDAR: Well, it -- it's a meeting of
25 people who want to talk about cults.
1 But again, I would object to -- it doesn't have
2 anything to do with this case or this hearing.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
4 THE COURT: It's hard to say, because there are
5 witnesses here. I have no idea. But this is one of
6 those ones where there are some witnesses that are
7 clear witnesses and there are some that aren't. And
8 Mr. Dandar, this is one where you are listed as a
9 witness so we'll have to deal with it anyway. I
10 mean, you're listed as a party who was there.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I would certainly think
12 that would be relevant.
13 MR. DANDAR: Except I'm not a witness.
14 MR. WEINBERG: But there's nothing privileged
15 about it. And that's part of what we say was
16 happening in December of 1999.
17 THE COURT: Remember what I'm saying here is
18 that you -- this -- as I understand, all these
19 discovery orders were produced pursuant to a trial,
20 not pursuant to this hearing.
21 MR. WEINBERG: They were produced --
22 THE COURT: So we're going to have Mr. Dandar
23 be able to look at this and then we're going to have
24 an argument on this --
25 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
1 THE COURT: -- as to whether or not anything
2 that Mr. Dandar is a participant in is something
3 that is to be released.
4 MR. DANDAR: May I look at that during lunch
5 or --
6 THE COURT: What, this?
7 No, you may not look at this.
8 MR. DANDAR: All right.
9 THE COURT: That's private. Neither of you get
10 to see this.
11 MR. DANDAR: All right.
12 THE COURT: This was sent to me. I'll seal it
13 back up just like I got it, and it'll be --
14 No, you may not.
15 I will go through those that have you listed in
16 the event I decide that somehow you qualify as a
17 witness, and tell you which ones that they are so
18 you can be heard on each and every one of them. I
19 think there are about five of them. And there's an
20 awful lot of tapes here.
21 Okay. It's 11:30. It's about lunchtime. You
22 want to get started?
23 MR. DANDAR: We could start or take an early
24 lunch. I'll leave it up to the court.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I sort of suggest we take an
1 early lunch and come back.
2 THE COURT: All right. If we do that, what I
3 suggest we do is that, Mr. Dandar, you make your
4 copy of that and give it to counsel, and you show me
5 and tell me what people you don't think are
7 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
8 THE COURT: I'm going to have to try to get
9 Mr. Keane here to see how he got this list, because
10 his -- his order says that it --
11 Please. That's an original. Don't be messing
12 it up. I mean, if you don't have a staple remover,
13 for heaven sake --
14 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm a master at that and it
15 will come out perfect.
16 I apologize.
17 THE COURT: Okay. We'll go ahead and be in
18 recess until -- might as well make it -- well, we'll
19 say quarter to 1.
20 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
21 THE COURT: Do you want to be heard? Was this
22 211, which is this document that you had some
23 objection to 'cause you said it was work product,
24 was that ever introduced?
25 MR. WEINBERG: We didn't introduce it.
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't, because of the --
3 THE COURT: Possible problem?
4 MR. WEINBERG: -- circumstances.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. WEINBERG: So -- you know, so once that's
7 cleared up, I probably will introduce it.
8 THE COURT: Okay. How about -- I've got here
9 what appears to be Plaintiff's 104, -5 and -6.
10 Those were introduced, weren't they?
11 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, they were.
13 THE COURT: And then there's one --
14 I guess that's it.
15 MR. FUGATE: 103, I think, was that notice
16 of -- judicial notice on the affidavits that you
17 gave her earlier? Is that what that is?
18 THE COURT: Yeah.
19 MR. DANDAR: There's some I haven't moved into
20 evidence yet, Judge, that Mr. Young identified.
21 THE COURT: Well, look, we're done for the
22 morning, so I'm not doing any more record business.
23 We just took a lunch break.
24 (A recess was taken at 11:25 a.m.)
2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was
authorized to and did stenographically report the
7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and
complete record of my stenographic notes.
I further certify that I am not a relative,
9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
interested in the action.
12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 18th day of June,
DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR